Let's talk about Ancients

[Zeklo]

It terms of Metheus, I've been advocating for them being an ancient Charlie was fused with for years. It's one of my favorite 'wild' theories, but the way the name has just continued to get dragged around without clarification has certainly left me a bit miffed on thinking about it further.

The play acts, especially, has made me put less faith in to the theory as of late. It almost feels like an... unnecessary middle man, if you will.
I'm beginning to ride with the idea more and more that "Them" is an umbrella term for all of these sort of unfathomable entities.

Metheus playing off of Prometheus, and being about fire—torch wielder anyone?—makes sense.
But it also makes sense in the context of Prometheus "giving power"—shadow magic anyone?—and with "metheus" meaning like "thought" (sanity!).

In that manner, it could make Metheus & Alter Their individual names.

I don't like one of the Fuelweaver's lines in that context, but other than that it feels like less of a headache to patch plot holes.

"Them" is such an old title that honestly fits lunar boi more than shadow boi ironically. Since Gestalts are like a collective consciousness while Shadow Creatures seem more like mutants... like, literally. The Gestalts may as well be considered a 'direct piece' of lunar boi while the shadows seem more similar to the lunar mutants. Even if they may not be the Ancients turned shadow, they very clearly went against the main shadow bois goal of getting the gateway up. So they definitely ain't the real deal, yeah?

That's why I'm really excited to see what kind of foes we'll being getting from Shadow Rifts. They'll be closer to the source... theoretically.

=======================

That said, I could see Metheus being a standalone character (possibly an ancient, possibly one of the rulers), if they're the true antagonist manipulating both sides for their own benefit. Having two unfathomable entities destroy one another could make for the ultimate revenge against "gods" that ultimately forsake their civilization.

That's less a theory and more just a story direction I could see happening.

...

...Though to rebuttal myself again... a book of Shadow Magic having an M on it does seem to suggest an M-named character (predating William) would have more of a connection to shadow than a middle ground...

@ _ @

Klei clearing up who/what Metheus/Them/whatever is remains my #1 desire for these updates.
Feels like we're moving beyond that, and is information we should know as the story ventures even deeper.

6 hours ago, Szczuku said:

I very much don't think this is supposed to be AF. Not at all in fact. That's just a reanimated skeleton, it's supposed to show us that Ancients used nightmare fuel to: make clockworks, create food/gems and to reanimate the dead and make them their slaves of sorts. After all why would they want to summon a giant, powerful skeleton, that actively wants to turn off the Gateway?

The fact that the Fuelweaver wants to turn off the gateway is a really good example of why they may be the Staff Wielder (or an Ancient Ruler in general).
They're acutely aware of the destruction the entity within it can bring, and the "fate worse than death". Hence "saving" the survivors by killing them.

Dude's soul may very well be practically trapped within a heart that can bring them back at a whim.

Edit: I think I quoted wrong. I'll give this another look over when I have time.

[PunkShark]

1 hour ago, Zeklo said:

It terms of Metheus, I've been advocating for them being an ancient Charlie was fused with for years. It's one of my favorite 'wild' theories, but the way the name has just continued to get dragged around without clarification has certainly left me a bit miffed on thinking about it further.

The play acts, especially, has made me put less faith in to the theory as of late. It almost feels like an... unnecessary middle man, if you will.
I'm beginning to ride with the idea more and more that "Them" is an umbrella term for all of these sort of unfathomable entities.

Metheus playing off of Prometheus, and being about fire—torch wielder anyone?—makes sense.
But it also makes sense in the context of Prometheus "giving power"—shadow magic anyone?—and with "metheus" meaning like "thought" (sanity!).

In that manner, it could make Metheus & Alter Their individual names.

I don't like one of the Fuelweaver's lines in that context, but other than that it feels like less of a headache to patch plot holes.

"Them" is such an old title that honestly fits lunar boi more than shadow boi ironically. Since Gestalts are like a collective consciousness while Shadow Creatures seem more like mutants... like, literally. The Gestalts may as well be considered a 'direct piece' of lunar boi while the shadows seem more similar to the lunar mutants. Even if they may not be the Ancients turned shadow, they very clearly went against the main shadow bois goal of getting the gateway up. So they definitely ain't the real deal, yeah?

That's why I'm really excited to see what kind of foes we'll being getting from Shadow Rifts. They'll be closer to the source... theoretically.

 

The whole Metheus thing has always been; either, or.
And the "latest" information regarding this name 'metheus' really doesn't help. Axium visus comes to mind. (for the record i think what we got with axium visus was just waayyy too vague to make anything out of it, which was probably klei's intention) 

The name "Them". Has it been official that was the name of these things? Let's think about it. Was it just universally agreed upon because Maxwell told us through his rambling monologue, sure we have seen it time and time again. "Curse Their name!" -FW. Pugna quotes, Return of Them is a testament to that. But seeing as Alter who has a name, who is a part of Them, the one who returned and acts like their shadow counterpart to almost every detail i think it might've just been a "placeholder" name so to speak for these giant, force of nature beings. Kinda like when you name someone "jane doe" or "John Doe" when you don't know their identity. If the Ancients knew the name of the being inside of the moon, surely they would know of the other entity that caused their downfall's name Yeah?  I think, when they've ever used Them or Their with a capital T it was for us, the player to understand that they're talking about something specific obviously. "Curse Their name!" quote is in in my opinion the fact that they knew its name and it was just for us the player to understand they were talking about "Them". 

[bloopah]

1 hour ago, PunkShark said:

The whole Metheus thing has always been; either, or.
And the "latest" information regarding this name 'metheus' really doesn't help. Axium visus comes to mind. (for the record i think what we got with axium visus was just waayyy too vague to make anything out of it, which was probably klei's intention) 

The name "Them". Has it been official that was the name of these things? Let's think about it. Was it just universally agreed upon because Maxwell told us through his rambling monologue, sure we have seen it time and time again. "Curse Their name!" -FW. Pugna quotes, Return of Them is a testament to that. But seeing as Alter who has a name, who is a part of Them, the one who returned and acts like their shadow counterpart to almost every detail i think it might've just been a "placeholder" name so to speak for these giant, force of nature beings. Kinda like when you name someone "jane doe" or "John Doe" when you don't know their identity. If the Ancients knew the name of the being inside of the moon, surely they would know of the other entity that caused their downfall's name Yeah?  I think, when they've ever used Them or Their with a capital T it was for us, the player to understand that they're talking about something specific obviously. "Curse Their name!" quote is in in my opinion the fact that they knew its name and it was just for us the player to understand they were talking about "Them". 

I thought the collective name of the Constant's deities was "Them". I'm assuming the arc title "Return of Them" is a bit misleading because it's only the return of one of Them, that being Alter, who was presumably in hibernation until the survivors built Wagstaff's funny sucking machine.

Metheus I believe is the other one of Them (the big eye in the puzzle), who came from the Ancient Gateway and, from what I could tell, is the reason why the Ancients shed their bodies to become the Nightmare Creatures. Considering the Stageplay said Charlie wants to "set Them free" it's likely that Alter was the first to be "set free", with Metheus being next. I could be extremely wrong about this part, so please correct me if I am.

[GenomeSquirrel]

I’m still wondering whether Them includes the shadow people, whether the shadows came from the the gate, or were from a defeated, yet more bent than broken, Alter counterpart.

[SirToastyToes]

On 5/21/2023 at 8:23 AM, Szczuku said:

I'd like Klei to never show us a live Ancient

Debatably alive and debatably an Ancient? Strongly tied to the Blood Moon and has the Ancients' symbol for Shadow on their head.

[gamehun20]

17 minutes ago, SirToastyToes said:

alive

Strong word to use kinda alive just a shadow of what they were

[Cassielu]

Everyone seems to assume that the shadow entity comes from the other side of the Gateway, but it also can be interpreted in another way.

The shadow eye entity has been in this side of the world since the second obelisk image, serving as the third magical eye of the Staff Wielder. In the third obelisk image, it occupies the gateway, strengthened by an endless supply of nightmare fuel.

 

Spoiler

One of the interesting things about this theory is that it gives the shadow eye entity and the moon more in common, as they both draw power from the Gateway activity to strengthen themselves.

[Zeklo]

In regards to the Clockwork discussion earlier, I think the answer is actually pretty simple.

The Ancients are the original builders. Maxwell just scooped up the remains, patched them up, and used them for his own bidding.
(heck the "Rook" is just a mechanical Guardian, the "chess" flare on the horn only exists on the surface versions!)

"I'm especially proud of that piece."
You can be proud of something you fixed up, or an underling doing a good job! There are lots of things to be proud of.

"I always wondered where those parts came from." & "Ah. I suppose I misinterpreted the original design."
Some good quotes that could support this. Max could have just came across the remains, and did his best to get them into working order.

"Such quality workmanship!"
In this context, this line becomes a lot funnier, because Maxwell would basically be giving himself a pat on the back—he does have an ego!

I think that's the simplest solution that covers all grounds:
Original Builders ✔️
Used Parts ✔️
Proud ✔️

[YouKnowWho]

2 hours ago, Zeklo said:

In regards to the Clockwork discussion earlier, I think the answer is actually pretty simple.

The Ancients are the original builders. Maxwell just scooped up the remains, patched them up, and used them for his own bidding.
(heck the "Rook" is just a mechanical Guardian, the "chess" flare on the horn only exists on the surface versions!)

"I'm especially proud of that piece."
You can be proud of something you fixed up, or an underling doing a good job! There are lots of things to be proud of.

"I always wondered where those parts came from." & "Ah. I suppose I misinterpreted the original design."
Some good quotes that could support this. Max could have just came across the remains, and did his best to get them into working order.

"Such quality workmanship!"
In this context, this line becomes a lot funnier, because Maxwell would basically be giving himself a pat on the back—he does have an ego!

I think that's the simplest solution that covers all grounds:
Original Builders ✔️
Used Parts ✔️
Proud ✔️

If I might offer a quick rebuttal, there's also this quote on regarding one of the marble sculptures:

“My creations! How rude."

I'll admit, I think technically you can refer to something you refurbished as your creation, but it'd certainly be a very a strange choice of words. 

It's also worth pointing out these two lines on the chess pieces.

“A dreadful lack of accordions.”

“It's nice, but where's the rust? The exhaust pipes?”

They're not contradictory by themselves, but it would feel really out-of-character for Maxwell to be fanboying over somebody else's design choices like this.

Finally there's the appearance of the Floaty Boaty Knight in Shipwrecked; a clockwork seemingly without any ties to the ruins. The idea that Maxwell would've fixed up some old robots he'd found and then later design one of his own along the same image feels  a bit counter-intuitive. I mean, why not just summon your own robots in the first place?

That all said Maxwell being a major dork is something we definitely can agree on.

[Szczuku]

24 minutes ago, YouKnowWho said:

If I might offer a quick rebuttal, there's also this quote on regarding one of the marble sculptures

Builders, plural, not 'I left it in...', not 'it was left in..'

Maxwell had repaired some damaged clockworks, added some of his own touches to their design and then claimed them as his own. That's normal imo. Heck, I'd call the drawing in the op 'my Ancients' design' even though it's just my interpretation of Klei's original work.

Maxwell also claims the Constant to be 'his world' even though we've already established that it existed in a stable-enough state (evironmentally speaking) before his arrival. He just added some of his touches to this world

[Zeklo]

Back on the topic of Metheus though.
Does anyone remember a Klei stream where their gender was confirmed?

I, personally, recall them being said to be female, and FW being male. Which prominently stood out to me—I even referenced it in a video, I believe.
But considering how absurdly long ago that was, I am beginning to question the authenticity of that memory.

Does that ring any bells?

[Cassielu]

56 minutes ago, Zeklo said:

Does anyone remember a Klei stream where their gender was confirmed?

Metheus is female is from Rhymes With Play #140 but I don't have video.

Fuelweaver is male is from the update introduction, developer use "him" to refer to Fuelweaver. here.

[YouKnowWho]

On 5/25/2023 at 5:23 AM, Zeklo said:

In that manner, it could make Metheus & Alter Their individual names.

In regards to the play acts, I think it’s worth noting that the concept art actually lists one of the costumes as “Shadow/Meth”

or, uh, maybe it’s “Metn.” 

I’d take it with a grain of salt given that it’s concept art, but this would fall more in line with your idea of Metheus being the name of the shadow god rather than the torchbearer.

[Szczuku]

1 hour ago, YouKnowWho said:

“Shadow/Meth”

1 hour ago, YouKnowWho said:

Metheus being the name of the shadow god rather than the torchbearer.

I do think it is worth mentioning that the concept art mask bears some resemblance to the Torchbearer's mask. Most noticeably the spiral elements at the top

14 hours ago, YouKnowWho said:

you could stand to be a little less rude.

Sorry, just wanted to make a quick, straightforward answer. No offence meant

On 5/24/2023 at 11:09 AM, sylvia wander o said:

I believe the implication is that she got it from the Archives.

I find it stange to believe that the area built before the discovey of nightmare fuel, with a (supposedly) working portal would have a blueprint for an upgraded version of gateway portal that was constructed/discovered after Ancients had left the Archives

[Zeklo]

11 hours ago, Cassielu said:

Metheus is female is from Rhymes With Play #140 but I don't have video.

Fuelweaver is male is from the update introduction, developer use "him" to refer to Fuelweaver. here.

Ah perfect, thanks!

2 hours ago, YouKnowWho said:

In regards to the play acts, I think it’s worth noting that the concept art actually lists one of the costumes as “Shadow/Meth”

or, uh, maybe it’s “Metn.” 

I’d take it with a grain of salt given that it’s concept art, but this would fall more in line with your idea of Metheus being the name of the shadow god rather than the torchbearer.

Oh wow! I never saw this, that's incredibly interesting. 

[YouKnowWho]

55 minutes ago, Szczuku said:

Sorry, just wanted to make a quick, straightforward answer. No offence meant

I get it. It's can be pretty hard to pick up on tone over the internet. Thank you though.

55 minutes ago, Szczuku said:

I do think it is worth mentioning that the concept art mask bears some resemblance to the Torchbearer's mask. Most noticeably the spiral elements at the top

That's a good observation. It makes me wonder why Klei ended up deciding on the mirror. Maybe as a reflection of Charlie's "other side?" Or is it supposed to resemble the gateway?

[Zeklo]

16 minutes ago, YouKnowWho said:

Maybe as a reflection of Charlie's "other side?" Or is it supposed to resemble the gateway?

Dang. I always thought the latter, but the former does make a lot of sense too. @ _ @
Given the biased & not 1:1 nature of the play, it could be both.

If so, the whole Metheus is Charlie's other half theory could still be legit. Just Metheus is shadow boi instead of the Torch Ancient.
That would allow the line "Metheus is here" to still make sense, and give a double meaning to the Mirror's representation.

A piece of Charlie AND something beyond the gate.

[Popian]

There is the thing that the Ancient Fuelweaver doesn't recognize Charlie as either Metheus or Them, as magical beings can typically sense auras, though it could be a physical thing.

[lowercase skye]

7 hours ago, Szczuku said:

I find it stange to believe that the area built before the discovey of nightmare fuel, with a (supposedly) working portal would have a blueprint for an upgraded version of gateway portal that was constructed/discovered after Ancients had left the Archives

I don't recall it ever being stated the specific point in time that the Archives fell out of use. Besides, I would be surprised if the lore was set up of there being an ancient library full of old scrolls of knowledge... just for nothing to be done with it and then Charlie to have magically gotten an old scroll somewhere else.

[Cassielu]

Hey, does anyone have a theory about what was painted on Ancient Mural?

One of them seems to be the ancients with the nightmare fuel, but the other one I'm not sure what it is, and I was wondering what you guys think?

[GenomeSquirrel]

8 hours ago, Cassielu said:

Hey, does anyone have a theory about what was painted on Ancient Mural?

One of them seems to be the ancients with the nightmare fuel, but the other one I'm not sure what it is, and I was wondering what you guys think?

I’m thinking gateway portal

[willell]

The posture of ancestors has a corresponding relationship with "words"

5、6，The limbs turn black.The back is the same color as thulium.

1、2、4、5we can determine the general image of  ancestors.

3It seems to be a broken robot