Why are content-locking bosses "group-focused" while bonus convenience bosses are designed for the solo?

[Skelewar]

Yes, I know the title is "Don't Starve TOGETHER". Yes, I know the balance of the game between groups and solos has always been a talking point. However, this just struck me recently with Wilson's refresh and the introduction of the Nightmare Werepig. Basically, the question is: Why are half of the bosses necessary for game progression designed for groups, but the majority of the QoL bonus bosses designed for solo? Shouldn't it be the other way around?

In the context of DST I'm going to consider a "group focused" boss to be one that requires you to do multiple things at the same time. The big offenders for this argument are:

• Bee Queen (deal damage/tank unkitable attack + deal with endless minions)
• Crab King (deal damage/prevent self-heal + move boat/attack claws/prevent sinking)
• Ancient Fuelweaver (deal damage/kill nightmare hands + prevent self-heal + unkitable attacks)

yeah big surprise that I'm bringing up everyone's favorite bosses, I'm sure no one is tired about hearing complaints about these guys.

These bosses are required to "beat" the game (BeeQueen to preserve infused moon shards). That makes up literally half of the required bosses (the other half being Celestial Champ, Shadow Pieces, and Ancient Guardian). Before you say that this is done to make beating the game actually challenging, killing AF and BQ (CK is another story) with even a single other teammate is, in my opinion, not a challenge. Especially with a Wendy, Wig, Warly, or Wolf. Hop on a public server and get a small group together to kill BQ, experience how even with "noobs" you just have to stand still and hold down F key to win, and even if anyone does die you are in a group so reviving is easy.

Meanwhile, bosses like the new Nightmare Werepig, Eye of Terror, Klaus even freakin Malbatross are clearly designed with solo players in mind. There fights have almost no unavoidable damage, almost no self-heal, and all you have to think about is dodging attacks, managing stats, getting your own hits in and yet they are still fun (malbatross debatable) with small extra tasks (prevent pig's slow self heal, stop eye's preventable minion spawn, dodge Klaus's magic attack which is optionally preventable with opposite elemental staff, etc). These fight have no content locked behind them, they are just bonuses that the player can do for fun and better gear. Shouldn't the optional bosses be the complicated group-focused fights while the ones that have content locked behind them be more accessible to all players?

I know I'm shouting into the wind because all of these things are too far gone to change now, but I believe bosses should be made more in line with:

The well designed progression "solo friendly" bosses: honestly the remaining three

• CC. Challenging kiting patterns and don't require the player to do multiple tasks at the same time. just be conscious of your movement and your stats. Fun and engaging!
• Ancient Guard. Cool use of the environment, deals high damage but has a self-stun in the fight to give the player free hits, yet takes place in a unique area which could be considered challenging to reach in the first place.
• Shadow Pieces. Lets the player choose their own fight based on what order they kill the bosses and difficulty ramps up in a fun way, culminating into a big finale.

The well designed QoL "raid" bosses:

• Toadstool (is this controversial?). Requires teamwork to chop the mushtrees and deal damage, requires all members to be aware of who is spored in order to not gimp others, and has an AoE attack to harm all fighters. Additionally, only important drops are convenient furniture pieces, and the means to make more of said furniture pieces with the napsack. Perfect!
• Dragonfly. You may not have expected her to be here since with a little effort and stone walls she can be practically transformed into a solo boss, but I think that speaks even more positively of her. She spawns minions which die on their own, her attack is kitable with enough practice, and even if it weren't she literally gives the player breathers throughout the fight when she goes to spawn larva. The only change I would make is to change her attack from single-target to AoE like Bearger's swings. Her only important drops are convenient furniture and bonus gems, where you're even guaranteed to get at least one of each. Perfect!
• The Twins. Two bosses at once, perfect for multiple people. A challenging fight with AoE attacks. The drop is a convenient refuel-able weapon/armor combo item. Awesome!
• Honorable mention to Antlion because while he's not nearly complicated enough to be considered a "raid" boss, he is optional, drops convenience items, has a self-heal that only triggers if you go out of his range for too long, and is actually more difficult the more people you have fighting him. A unique switch-up, and kind of a raid-boss lite.

TLDR: In my opinion, a group-focused boss should have a multi-target attack, more than one task to do, and should only block passage to BONUS, CONVENIENCE items. Bosses that lock away actual game content such as resetting ruins, moonstorm events, or the upcoming lunar rift stuff should be focused solely on kiting attacks, getting in hits, and managing stats with room for small additional elements. It wouldn't make every boss boring and samey because Klaus, EoT, Nightmarepig, Ancient Guardian, and more have all pulled it off great.

also if you want to discredit this, then sure maybe I am salty thinking about how many bunny hutches and sea weeds I'm going to have to relocate in my new world to be ready for the coming lunar rift stuff 

[Mike23Ua]

I have a feeling that Klei isn’t done balancing the game yet.. And that they will add ways for solo & group players to enjoy content without the solo player becoming overwhelmed, or the group players killing the enemies too fast to be challenged by it.

I was Stun-Locked to death yesterday by like 50 Birchnutters (yeah first time I’ve ever died to a Birchnutter but still..) the fact that they endlessly and helplessly stunned you in place preventing movement or attacking them made me realize that “Stun-Lock” on the player, in this game isn’t a fun gameplay mechanic.. and the only way to actually prevent it is if there are other players around to help you once you become helpless.

Imagine if for example Deerclops could repeatedly freeze you in an Ice block over and over without you being able to react.

This was my experience with the 50 birchnutters, this has been my experience sometimes when trying to fight a Spider Queen and her minions, I’ve even had this un-fun repeated Stun mechanic happen to me when trying to deal with a Swarm of Cookie Cutters.

I feel like this Mechanic only exists at all within the game so that IF your playing with another player, THEY can rush to your aid and help you escape before Stun-Locked to death.. But that doesn’t make it a FUN or even FAIR game mechanic.

its Equivalent to giving every spider a spit attack that webs you up preventing movement or attacks.. while Stun-Locking has Always Existed in DS even before DST…

There was significantly less “horde” mobs that attacked like this with Stuns, they didn’t have nearly as much health as their DST counter parts, and there wasn’t so many bosses designed with Endlessly Spawning Minions + Healing.

DST is a very solo unfriendly game, but I have a feeling the more solo players complain that Klei will do something to make it feel more comfortable, be it a game mode, world Gen setting, or just changes to how certain unfriendly game mechanics function.

[Captain_Rage]

The bosses of DST are very well designed. Most of them are viable to defeat alone (without using sketchy methods). Some bosses are easier to take on in groups, but others are offset by the chaos many players bring. The key to defeating some bosses is high damage output, which favors groups. Some bosses are more about timings and execution. All in all Klei has done an amazing job designing them.

I think the rewards are also meant to be implicit. Defeating a difficult boss for the first time without resorting to cheap methods is supposed to bring excitement in itself. The loot sometimes feels more like a bonus or a trophy. It is true however that there is a peculiar discrepancy between the rewards which of some of the bosses that are required to progress bring compared to the ones that are not part of a quest chain. It has probably to do with Klei adding things as they go, loosely coming up with new quest lines without having everything set in stone from the conception of DST.

 

 

[Skelewar]

1 hour ago, Captain_Rage said:

The bosses of DST are very well designed. Most of them are viable to defeat alone (without using sketchy methods). Some bosses are easier to take on in groups, but others are offset by the chaos many players bring. The key to defeating some bosses is high damage output, which favors groups. Some bosses are more about timings and execution. All in all Klei has done an amazing job designing them.

I think the rewards are also meant to be implicit. Defeating a difficult boss for the first time without resorting to cheap methods is supposed to bring excitement in itself. The loot sometimes feels more like a bonus or a trophy. It is true however that there is a peculiar discrepancy between the rewards of some of the bosses that are required to progress. It has probably to do with Klei adding things as they go, loosely coming up with new quest lines without having everything set in stone from the conception of DST.

For the majority of bosses, I agree! I'm mainly commenting on how these particular three, which may be the most complained discussed bosses of DST's lifetime, are required for progression. I think that if they weren't, and they were only there for the bone armor, wrap, trident and challenge itself then there would not be nearly as many posts and videos about them. I can agree that when Klei added BQ they weren't planning on her being required down the line, but when they made the spoilage of infused moon rock so short what other plan could they have had? Set up a lazy deserter to get the rocks to the island, no that requires two players. Telelocate to the island? Also requires two players. You can't give them the benefit of ignorance, they know the effects of their decisions. Additionally, one thing you omit is the resource grind of armor and healing (and very often pan flutes which eventually require green gems, the most valuable resource of all), which is also compounded when comparing team play to solo.

ALL bosses are easier to take on in groups (even Antlion if you just tag each other out, keeping one player in the arena at a time) no matter what, based simply on the the potential damage multiplier of many attackers, increase of total health the survivor team has at their disposal, and division of labour for preparations. There is no avoiding that, and if Klei wants bosses to be designed with that massive player buff in mind, that is fine, but they should be out of the way of the main game progression. They did it fantastically with Toadstool.

It's been years of "Easy Ancient Fuelweaver method!" videos of Wolfgang holding three lazy explorers 10 glasscutters, 10 Weatherpains, 40 dragonpies and 40 cooked cactus or "Simple BeeQueen Kill" with Wendy on an ornery war saddled-beefalo and 3 panflutes. (these are exaggerations) Klei is not infallible and in my opinion it is about time Klei recognizes the issue and tweak either the bosses to be more approachable or the progression to avoid them. This conversation is the most decomposed of dead horses at this point, but it's been years. It would be so easy- potential fixes are remove Bee Queen's honey trail so she is kitable again. Remove Ancient Weaver's self-heal. Increase infused moon rock spoilage time (which they did do from 90 seconds to 12 minutes but still you'll be moving them like 8 at a time if you just sail). Make the celestial tribute come from ANYWHERE else. Give another means to reset ruins.

Finally, if you play Wolfgang, Wendy, Wigfrid or Wanda, you must understand their boss killing potential is leagues higher than their colleagues.

[Squidyfoo]

1 hour ago, Skelewar said:

It's been years of "Easy Ancient Fuelweaver method!" videos of Wolfgang holding three lazy explorers 10 glasscutters, 10 Weatherpains, 40 dragonpies and 40 cooked cactus or "Simple BeeQueen Kill" with Wendy on an ornery war saddled-beefalo and 3 panflutes. (these are exaggerations)

This is why it needs balance. Some bosses for playing by yourself need a ton of armor and health and dark swords and etc. Then you are pressured into playing wolfgang so you don't take 20 mins to beat the boss. Meanwhile you can fight the same boss in multiplayer with a football helmet for each person, a hambat for everyone, maybe a wolfgang or two and then boom your set. Like... Yep.

I think bosses would be cool if their health stacked when more players are on the server or whatever. So in single player it's still both challenging and fair, then in multiplayer its both fair and actually a challenge because the boss has more health depending on the amount you have so that you don't just hold F to win. I understand that it is a multiplayer game and it needs to uphold the game but that doesn't mean it needs to be unfair for people with no one to play with (me). ...sorry if I sounded disrespectful or salty or anything, but I do think it needs some balancing that's all. Besides... I have trust in the devs. I think they understand.

[Waynel]

9 hours ago, Skelewar said:

It's been years of "Easy Ancient Fuelweaver method!" videos of Wolfgang holding three lazy explorers 10 glasscutters, 10 Weatherpains, 40 dragonpies and 40 cooked cactus or "Simple BeeQueen Kill" with Wendy on an ornery war saddled-beefalo and 3 panflutes. (these are exaggerations) Klei is not infallible and in my opinion it is about time Klei recognizes the issue and tweak either the bosses to be more approachable or the progression to avoid them. This conversation is the most decomposed of dead horses at this point, but it's been years. It would be so easy- potential fixes are remove Bee Queen's honey trail so she is kitable again. Remove Ancient Weaver's self-heal. Increase infused moon rock spoilage time (which they did do from 90 seconds to 12 minutes but still you'll be moving them like 8 at a time if you just sail). Make the celestial tribute come from ANYWHERE else. Give another means to reset ruins.

The reason why we have all those complaints about afw is that these guide makers are completely out of touch with the skill level of the player base. They always love to overcomplicate things by mixing advanced concepts like teleporting and kiting (and sometimes even killing shadow minions in a melee fashion). As far as the Wolfgang issue goes, it really was Edgy Rick exclusive: he was using this character to compensate for an advanced strat (no weather pain, only lazy explorer) that he didn’t even master.

I’m not sure but I believe that a year ago, as a response to an afw balance complaint, Lakhnish monster released a no lazy explorer only weather pain guide, which to my knowledge was the first truly “noob friendly guide”. I don’t find it on youtube as of now though so maybe it’s unlisted, or my mind just that made that up lol.

In essence, a truly low apm/easy guide involves: tanking, cane only, weather pains, high tier sanity food. Forget about kiting and teleporting out of the cage. Make the fight shorter, reduce the multitasking, keep it simple.

But this is how the community got this false perception about afw’s difficulty which leads to balance complaints such as yours. Add the fact that certain new players watch speedruns thinking they are guides, when said runs utilize much more complicated strategies than regular guides. It is akin to watching a pro cs go game where players have 0,01 second reaction time coupled with insane aim accuracy and thinking: “I’m never going to play a casual 5v5 cs go match because I would never be able to pull that off” even though the skill requirement to win a low level amateur match is infinitely lower.

Don’t nerf afw, nerf the guides.

[GuardDuty]

1 hour ago, Waynel said:

The reason why we have all those complaints about afw is that these guide makers are completely out of touch with the skill level of the player base. They always love to overcomplicate things by mixing advanced concepts like teleporting and kiting (and sometimes even killing shadow minions in a melee fashion). As far as the Wolfgang issue goes, it really was Edgy Rick exclusive: he was using this character to compensate for an advanced strat (no weather pain, only lazy explorer) that he didn’t even master.

I’m not sure but I believe that a year ago, as a response to an afw balance complaint, Lakhnish monster released a no lazy explorer only weather pain guide, which to my knowledge was the first truly “noob friendly guide”. I don’t find it on youtube as of now though so maybe it’s unlisted, or my mind just that made that up lol.

In essence, a truly low apm/easy guide involves: tanking, cane only, weather pains, high tier sanity food. Forget about kiting and teleporting out of the cage. Make the fight shorter, reduce the multitasking, keep it simple.

But this is how the community got this false perception about afw’s difficulty which leads to balance complaints such as yours. Add the fact that certain new players watch speedruns thinking they are guides, when said runs utilize much more complicated strategies than regular guides. It is akin to watching a pro cs go game where players have 0,01 second reaction time coupled with insane aim accuracy and thinking: “I’m never going to play a casual 5v5 cs go match because I would never be able to pull that off” even though the skill requirement to win a low level amateur match is infinitely lower.

Don’t nerf afw, nerf the guides.

True and it's quite suspicious to claim that players struggle with solo fights against high-base HP bosses/self-healing like AFW or others. I have seen many new players using efficient and noob-friendly strategies, such as using Wiona's catapult or Wolfgang with Voltgoat jelly in Spring, to make these fights easier. The reason why most players avoid bosses like AFW or CC is because the questlines lead to them is obscure, and it's difficult to figure them out without checking the wiki or watching guides.

Also, Crab-King is the worst boss right now and he needs a reworked not a nerf.

[Waynel]

38 minutes ago, Dreadle said:

True and it's quite suspicious to claim that players struggle with solo fights against high-base HP bosses/self-healing like AFW or others. I have seen many new players using efficient and noob-friendly strategies, such as using Wiona's catapult or Wolfgang with Voltgoat jelly in Spring, to make these fights easier. The reason why most players avoid bosses like AFW or CC is because the questlines lead to them is obscure, and it's difficult to figure them out without checking the wiki or watching guides.

Also, Crab-King is the worst boss right now and he needs a reworked not a nerf.

Yeah well I bet there surely is an easy automated way to kill ck with a combination of catapults + flingo too. My point was even if you prefer a more head-on/melee/1v1 strategy, afw can be taken down easily... but ck sucks in that regard...

[Maxil20]

18 hours ago, Skelewar said:

These bosses are required to "beat" the game (BeeQueen to preserve infused moon shards).

I would say BQ is significantly less so since the QOL update that increased the time for charged glass to spoil to 1.5 days (from 90 seconds). If you use an insulated pack or ice chester, you can pretty feasibly reach the lunar island within the 3 day time period before they become normal shards. It is not the most easiest method, but it is certainly doable without needing to kill bee queen. The other complaints are valid, though.

One thing that I do like is when “progression” bosses drop an item on the first kill that make subsequent encounters of said bosses considerably easier for solo players. The weaver/celestial champion are great examples of this. The weaver’s shadow Thurible allows you to outright prevent the bone cage if you have it equipped or are close to it on the ground (which makes kiting very possible without needing a lazy explorer or character perks) to warp out of the cage, and the champion’s enlightened crown helps speed up subsequent fights while preventing the gestalts that passively spawn around the island from hitting you during the encounter.

I personally really like bosses that can both be group and solo focused at the same time. Klaus is a neat example with the gem deer casts/krampus scaling with the amount of players. Bringing more players will certainly make the fight easier, but it doesn’t outright trivialize it, which I think is very neat.

[Guille6785]

bq is not required for progression, she fits perfectly in your definition of a qol boss

and imo fuelweaver is extremely well designed for solo, even as a wilson with a ham bat if you don't make major mistakes the fight should last at the absolute most 9-10 minutes which is on the more generous side for raid bosses, bee queen can easily take more than 2 days even while tanking with default damage mults

this makes ck the only problematic boss in your own post which I agree with and he desperately needs some changes

19 hours ago, Skelewar said:

It would be so easy- potential fixes are remove Bee Queen's honey trail so she is kitable again.

bee queen is kitable

[Cheggf]

Bosses seem to be designed for 1 or 2 players, since any more than that makes them really easy.

20 hours ago, Skelewar said:

remove Bee Queen's honey trail so she is kitable again

The honey trail is by far the best part of the fight. It's so much fun to dodge the honey as you attack her instead of just counting to a number and pressing d. They should do the opposite and extend the honey trail mechanic to more enemies.

[Mike23Ua]

I would honestly prefer that new WORLD changing content NOT be locked behind having to fight a boss (or two..) or some several hours long fetch Quests- and I would have Instead preferred to see this content handled same as most Previous content was handled:

As in Seasons change, new mobs show up, or existing ones change behavior, Personally I would’ve loved it if the new Lunar Rifts was simply a side effect of the Lunar Island or Moon Quay Island existing…

And so after so many days surviving, this new content introduces itself, as like a new weather season, new mobs accompanying that season etc.. not something that’s locked behind needing to fight some late game bosses or do 5 real world hours of fetch quests to get to that point.

And I think Klei KNOWS it too.. that’s why they’re letting them also be a World Gen Setting rather than just being locked to needing to fight a boss, now you can toggle them on/off same as you could seasonal events.

And if it were a Seasonal Event rather than being locked behind fighting CC, I could still access it faster by selecting that new 5th weather season, or Autumn Year 3.. or SOMETHING..

Thats the kind of “progression” most players wanted when they asked for progression right? A world that progressively scales in challenges the longer you’ve survived within it?

So what I don’t understand is why “Gate-Keep” the new juicy world content stuff behind OPTIONAL Side Quests & Bosses????

If it’s for a Story/Lore reason then MAYBE I can understand the point… but other than that, why not just add this stuff in as a new weather season or a variation of a Year 5 Autumn? (Players can toggle which Autumn they want to start within so they wouldn’t have to play four 4800hours to reach the point of enjoying something “new” same as how you can skip Autumn, Winter & Spring and start a world directly in Summer if you wanted to..)

 

[Skelewar]

3 hours ago, Guille6785 said:

bee queen is kitable

2 hours ago, Cheggf said:

The honey trail is by far the best part of the fight. It's so much fun to dodge the honey as you attack her instead of just counting to a number and pressing d. They should do the opposite and extend the honey trail mechanic to more enemies.

Wow you guys are right, I looked it up and she is kitable! I found a video where someone pulls it off without using a damage character and without 3 panflutes/20 ice staffs and they never got hit once! It was a half-hour long fight, using morning star in the spring. 

[Cheggf]

2 hours ago, Skelewar said:

Wow you guys are right, I looked it up and she is kitable! I found a video where someone pulls it off without using a damage character and without 3 panflutes/20 ice staffs and they never got hit once! It was a half-hour long fight, using morning star in the spring. 

And if you don't want it to take half an hour you can use damage characters, pan flutes, ice staves, catapults, buffs, NPCs, or extra players :steamhappy:

[GuardDuty]

3 hours ago, Skelewar said:

Wow you guys are right, I looked it up and she is kitable! I found a video where someone pulls it off without using a damage character and without 3 panflutes/20 ice staffs and they never got hit once! It was a half-hour long fight, using morning star in the spring. 

There is no "gate-keep" content because there are easy-mode/noob-friendly methods to execute bosses that exist in the game as everyone has said. The high level of skill and execution showcased in videos reminiscent of Dark Souls-type of content in DST is rewarding, providing players with an adrenaline rush and a sense of accomplishment. It is meant to be entertaining and as long as they are not entitled, I think it is a commendable achievement.
Very unlike boss-nerf ever happens, but even if the devs were to satisfy this demand, it would defeat the purpose anyway, as defeating an easy foe would not bring the same level of enjoyment as spending all your wits and effort to kill a difficult boss.

[Yuuko]

8 hours ago, Mike23Ua said:

So what I don’t understand is why “Gate-Keep” the new juicy world content stuff behind OPTIONAL Side Quests & Bosses????

AFW was made to be like an "end boss" to the game, and after ramping things up CC was released to take that place.  The whole point of the two is the duality of shadow and lunar energies.  Its been a strong theme in their design for literally years now...

They told us in their road map for this year that they were going to focus on the end-game loop, so putting this as content for after CC makes sense.  You still get worldgen settings to make it available earlier if you want, so I don't see any reason to complain about it.  This is progression, both for the player and the game to complete the quest and have things in the world change.

Sure you can survive forever without fighting them if you want, but that isn't beating the game.  Survival is the first tier challenge, conquering the world is the second tier.  This is the standard pattern for these types of games - minecraft, terraria, etc - you start out just learning to survive, but once you have that knowledge and skill you seek out bigger challenges until you complete the run.  Its different then tower defense or zombie mode games where its just endless waves of enemies until you're overrun by the sheer volume of opponents flooding in.

[AlternateMew]

I will say that the one thing I DON'T want them to do is scaling health based on player count. To me that makes the bosses feel less real.

For several bosses, KLei has done a pretty good job at making them just part of the world. A health scaling mechanic would make them feel like less of part of the world itself, more of just a checkbox for players to kill. That's the bosses adapting to the player, not the player adapting to the bosses.

[reddocc]

Is using gunpowder something obscure to you guys? 8000 health per stack that like 40% of Bq health, also gunpowder isn't hard to get an I would say is easier to make than weather pains or looking for panflutes on a public server

[lakhnish]

On 4/19/2023 at 5:35 AM, Waynel said:

I’m not sure but I believe that a year ago, as a response to an afw balance complaint, Lakhnish monster released a no lazy explorer only weather pain guide, which to my knowledge was the first truly “noob friendly guide”. I don’t find it on youtube as of now though so maybe it’s unlisted, or my mind just that made that up lol.

It was not a fever dream but it was indeed unlisted

[Yuuko]

12 hours ago, AlternateMew said:

I will say that the one thing I DON'T want them to do is scaling health based on player count. To me that makes the bosses feel less real.

For several bosses, KLei has done a pretty good job at making them just part of the world. A health scaling mechanic would make them feel like less of part of the world itself, more of just a checkbox for players to kill. That's the bosses adapting to the player, not the player adapting to the bosses.

and tbh - if they did health scaling it would only be to push the bosses UP from where they are not, not down.  Even for just 2-3 characters most bosses health pool is a joke.  Its only really hard on 1 character, and only if you're not a combat-focused character like Wanda / Wolfgang / etc.

Personally I think the problem isn't the health pool, but just the design of the boss.  All of the grumbles of BQueen add more time to the fight then her health bar does.  I'd rather have a BQueen rework then lower her health.

[Antynomity]

1 hour ago, Shosuko said:

and tbh - if they did health scaling it would only be to push the bosses UP from where they are not, not down.  Even for just 2-3 characters most bosses health pool is a joke.  Its only really hard on 1 character, and only if you're not a combat-focused character like Wanda / Wolfgang / etc.

Personally I think the problem isn't the health pool, but just the design of the boss.  All of the grumbles of BQueen add more time to the fight then her health bar does.  I'd rather have a BQueen rework then lower her health.

Quite a few of the older bosses need a rework, I love what they did to AG and I hope they decide to rework some of the others in the future, especially like you mentioned, bee queen.

It's not even like I have any issues dealing with these bosses it's just that they are really unintuitive and unfun to fight IMO.

[Antynomity]

Sorry, worded myself wrong, I do enjoy fighting these bosses it's just that the preparation part is super tedious depending on what you want to do and what character you're playing, sorry!