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What's the thought behind damage reduction on an enemy?


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100hp enemy with 50% dmg reduction has an effective 200hp. Then why not make the enemy have 0% defense as always and just 200hp?

Am I missing something?  

I know the new weapon deals "extra damage" to those enemies by ignoring the defense but what's the point of doing it this way? Why not make it simple with the same effect AKA 0% defense with more HP and then a weapon having a damage bonus against this type of enemy just like Woodie's beaver against treeguards? This isn't very complicated but it's more complicated than I believe it should be.


Is it some work around the game's limitations? 
Or is it some attempt to disguise the new feature as "quirky" but is bland and unnecessary since it's just a boring damage bonus against certain enemies except more annoying to calculate?

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The damage reduction on Brightshades and Grazers (and whatever other entities use planar defense in the future) is not a constant multiplier like 50%; it's a square root function, so the higher the damage goes, the stronger the reduction.

I believe the idea is to better cap out the ludicrous damage numbers you can output with combinations like Volt Goat Chaud-Froid + Chili Flakes on a wet target so that mobs can survive long enough to be a threat without them being overly tanky to those not stacking damage buffs.

I think it works well - the first revision needed some tuning on the numbers & behavior of the Brightshades but after this last update I've found them to be an enjoyable mob to fight.

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I belive the general theory/consensus is that Klei implemented the Planar Damage system so that they could add a "progression" system without said progression retroactively making current content easier. 

 

Frankly, I don't like the system at all. Progression that doesn't make you stronger is hardly progression at all. Though I do get it for Armor; DST's armor system already works in frankly absurd numbers; but is the damage really necessary? Not to mention that it's an obtuse system in a game that refuses to actually communicate anything with the player. How are they ever supposed to figure out that Planar damage even exists without a Wiki? 

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would prefer this over just increasing hp over and over to make an enemy "stronger"
This way it effectively increases the tankiness of an enemy similar to adding hp against melee attacks, but since planar doesn't affect some damage such as fire, it makes other dmg sources a bit more useful.

I don't get why people are complaning about this. increasing the hp or reducing the damage would result in the same number of hits required to kill the enemy, so does it hurt people so much to not see their glorious 200 dmg per hit? XD
Also, since the new weapons are tailor made against this system, it would make them too strong if the damage of the new weapons just straight up added to your already high damage.

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I just realized something…

Klei designed Wonkey back with Moon Quay update, Wonkeys design intention was to turn the players into a cursed Monkey thus- Losing access to any character specific perk bonuses (such as Wendy’s Abigail or Wolfgang’s Superstrength) it put EVERY playable character on the same fighting terms as any other character choice.

Planar Defense- Ignores normal weapons and player damage Modifiers, Tries to force players to all use the same weapons and armor.

Its Official: Planar Defense is Wonkey Curse 2.0..

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On 4/17/2023 at 2:29 AM, BB Marioni said:

would prefer this over just increasing hp over and over to make an enemy "stronger"
This way it effectively increases the tankiness of an enemy similar to adding hp against melee attacks, but since planar doesn't affect some damage such as fire, it makes other dmg sources a bit more useful.

I don't get why people are complaning about this. increasing the hp or reducing the damage would result in the same number of hits required to kill the enemy, so does it hurt people so much to not see their glorious 200 dmg per hit? XD
Also, since the new weapons are tailor made against this system, it would make them too strong if the damage of the new weapons just straight up added to your already high damage.

For me the dislike comes from the new “progression” not being any progress at all, and it annoys me that people even call it a “new progression system”
 

imagine you have a black sword that is a good strong weapon in your game. Then after months and months of no substantial content you’re aching for something new and finally, the devs deliver. There is a new sword, finally, the elusive blue sword. And to obtain it you have to kill the celestial champion which even getting to is a huge task in itself. One would assume this new sword is gonna be pretty strong, at least stronger than the gear you can acquire much cheaper from day 1. 
 

One would be incorrect. Upon undertaking the substantial challenge to obtain the new sword and working hard to acquire it, you realize that this sword is exactly the same as the black sword in practically every way that matters, same attack speed, same base attack, no special mechanics, nothing unique about the sword at all really…

Except the fact that it pierces a new type of resistance that was also added to the game during this update. You’re essentially given the exact same sword you already have and are being told “yeah but you need the new version because lunar plants bad (sry wormwood mains)”

You’re not progressing at all, you’re just as strong as you were before, you’re using the same weapon as before, you have made no progress. 
 

The update is definitely better now, plants are in a better spot now. Could use a spawn rate increase but they’re pretty good now.

loot drops are better.

new staff is actually useful now. Pickaxe got an added functionality so that’s cool.

I don’t hate the update, if fact I think it’s really cool and as I said before it’s just a couple tweaks away from being great but I do wish they’d have gone a different direction and added an actual progression system.

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I love how people complain about the new sword being the same as the old sword.. I mean what were you expecting it to do??? Allow you to unleash a rift of moon glass across the ground like the Shattered Spiders do? 
 

It’s just a Sword, a Light vs Dark Sword, and it can’t be much stronger than it’s Dark Variant.. because they’re intended to be seen as Equals (save for one being better at fighting Light enemies and one being better for fighting Dark ones)

Even if this wasn’t a sword at all and was instead a freaking Ball on a Chain (that still did the same damage as the other sword) people would be excited thinking it’s progression- when in reality it’s a different weapon with a new effect- That does the same amount of damage as if it would’ve remained to be a sword.

Its an illusion that getting a new weapon is progression, it’s not.. and it makes no difference if it becomes a ball & chain, or remains a light sword.. as long as it’s not anymore powerful then the dark variant- It’s Still not Progression.

People want OP weapons that will demolish older content- and personally I think that would be BORING to me if old challenges no longer pose a threat to me because I got some crazy overpowered end game tier loot that’s only going to be half enjoyable when using on equally end game tier mobs..

This seems to be the best way to add new late game weapons and resources, without the “Late-Game” making the rest of the game a SnoreFeast.

So personally.. I think the idea of Planar Damage was a great call on Klei’s part.

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I think a lot of people want upgrades.
When we say progression we mean content progression—there being something locked behind something else.

Lunar Island + Crab King + Archives -> Moonstorm -> Celestial Champion -> Lunar Rifts
As we tackle these objectives we unlock new objectives and things to overcome. Hence, progression. World progression, if you will.

Of course, worthwhile upgrades & rewards would be nice too obviously. It's just not what a lot of people mean when they say the new content adds progression imo.

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4 hours ago, Mike23Ua said:

It’s just a Sword, a Light vs Dark Sword, and it can’t be much stronger than it’s Dark Variant.. because they’re intended to be seen as Equals (save for one being better at fighting Light enemies and one being better for fighting Dark ones)

Except the Dark Sword can be reasonably obtained by the end of autumn for anyone who knows the steps to get it. Meanwhile, getting the "light variant" as you might put it involved traveling all over the world, doing an old woman's grocery shopping, doing an old man's grocery shopping, fighting atleast 2 raid bosses; one being arguably the single worst boss in DST, and the other that may or may not be a literal deity, and then still have to collect all the resources after that.

By all accounts, there is absolutely 0 reason that these swords should ever be considered sequels. Is that such a novel concept? going through hell to get a new item and wanting it to be better than all your old gear? 

And if you're concerned about Brightshade gear making earlier content too easy, then:

1. That's how progression is supposed to work. Imagine Terraria if all your post-Moonlord Gear didn't turn the early-game bosses into confetti. 

2. It wouldn't anyways. Easier, certainly, but unless klei made all the brightstone gear like 5x stronger than current gear to balance around it, all the challenges in the current game would still be quite challenging.

3. That would still be a supremely easy fix. Make the baseline for Post-CC gear 50% stronger than current gear (IE 96 damage for the sword instead of 68), make all the raid bosses 25% stronger than they are currently once CC is killed, and then make other mobs and non-raid bosses uneffected. New gear tears weaker foes to shreds, raid bosses are scaled accordingly but still easier, and Klei can make post-CC content as strong as they want. There, everyone's happy. 

 

And none of that was even talking about all the other problems that Planar Damage brings with it. 

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9 hours ago, Mike23Ua said:

It’s just a Sword, a Light vs Dark Sword, and it can’t be much stronger than it’s Dark Variant.. because they’re intended to be seen as Equals (save for one being better at fighting Light enemies and one being better for fighting Dark ones)

The Dark Sword is not the shadow equivalent to the Brightshade Sword. If anything, it's the shadow equivalent to the Glass Cutter, which is more or less at the same power level.

The shadow equivalent to the Brightshade Sword has not been added to the game yet, and when/if it will be added, it will be made with Pure Horror not Nightmare Fuel.

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11 hours ago, Vinja said:

For me the dislike comes from the new “progression” not being any progress at all, and it annoys me that people even call it a “new progression system”
 

imagine you have a black sword that is a good strong weapon in your game. Then after months and months of no substantial content you’re aching for something new and finally, the devs deliver. There is a new sword, finally, the elusive blue sword. And to obtain it you have to kill the celestial champion which even getting to is a huge task in itself. One would assume this new sword is gonna be pretty strong, at least stronger than the gear you can acquire much cheaper from day 1. 
 

One would be incorrect. Upon undertaking the substantial challenge to obtain the new sword and working hard to acquire it, you realize that this sword is exactly the same as the black sword in practically every way that matters, same attack speed, same base attack, no special mechanics, nothing unique about the sword at all really…

Except the fact that it pierces a new type of resistance that was also added to the game during this update. You’re essentially given the exact same sword you already have and are being told “yeah but you need the new version because lunar plants bad (sry wormwood mains)”

You’re not progressing at all, you’re just as strong as you were before, you’re using the same weapon as before, you have made no progress. 
 

The update is definitely better now, plants are in a better spot now. Could use a spawn rate increase but they’re pretty good now.

loot drops are better.

new staff is actually useful now. Pickaxe got an added functionality so that’s cool.

I don’t hate the update, if fact I think it’s really cool and as I said before it’s just a couple tweaks away from being great but I do wish they’d have gone a different direction and added an actual progression system.

it feels like you are describing an RPG game, where the longer you play the game, the stronger your character gets. DST still is a survival focused game, that's why I never really got why people focus so much on boss raids. In survival games, the progression normally is that the game gets harder the longer you play, as the game is meant to try to stop you from surviving, and the player's goal is to survive as long as they can. The progression in survival games comes from the skill and knowledge of the player, to know how to handle the things the game throws at them the harder the game gets. I am more of a fan of sideway progression in games as i encourages more player skill than relying on just stronger character/stats/ gear and win everything while blindfolded. 

This is why I play more action games recently where, to win, you actually need to get good, and stopped playing mmorpgs as I got tired and bored of seeing people buying max level accounts with Godly gear and just decimating everything without even knowing how to play the game.

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15 hours ago, Mike23Ua said:

Its an illusion that getting a new weapon is progression, it’s not.. and it makes no difference if it becomes a ball & chain, or remains a light sword.. as long as it’s not anymore powerful then the dark variant- It’s Still not Progression.

That’s my point entirely, there is no difference and it isn’t progression, which is why it’s annoying to see people calling it progression. Seems like maybe we can find a little common ground here.
 

And yes when a game adds new gear that is only accessible after killing the “final boss” of the game it is perfectly fair to assume that the new gear you get from killing it will not be the exact same as the gear you had access to on day 1 and it is perfectly fair to be disappointed when you discover as much. I don’t get why that’s so hard for people to understand lol. It’s also perfectly fair for me to express my dislike for the system and desire for something better. 
 

Never said the gear needs to be insanely OP and make everything else a cakewalk, that’s just a stupid strawman argument goofs try to use to sound intelligent and gain credibility even though literally no one is arguing against you on it. Congratulations you’ve made a great point against no one.

I mean look at the staff for example. In its prior state it was utterly useless, now it’s actually interesting. It’s not insanely OP, it doesn’t make everything a cakewalk, but it’s a new weapon with cool new mechanics that I’m actually interested in trying out and testing because it opens up entirely new options for combat. That’s all most people are asking for my dude, and the sword isn’t that. It’s the exact same sword that’s been in DS for a decade. Gear progression doesn’t have to just be bigger numbers and it’s silly for you to even act like that’s the only option or that it’s all people want. 

4 hours ago, BB Marioni said:

I am more of a fan of sideway progression in games as i encourages more player skill than relying on just stronger character/stats/ gear and win everything while blindfolded. 

I agree and that’s why I’m not a fan of the sword. It changes nothing, there is no opportunity for growth through the new sword. It’s the exact same as the gear you used to get it. How disappointing. Klei has done a much better job with the new staff on the other hand.

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The staff that got a nerf in the recent patch right? Overall Klei has an intended balance for how they want weapons to perform and how they want mobs to interact with them. If something is over/under performing Klei will tune it as they feel the need in doing so.

But YOUR Idea of Progression, and MY Idea Of Progression probably aren’t the same thing.

I don’t even think KLEI’s Idea of Progression (at least when it comes to DST) is the same as Mine.

My idea of progression is more like the single player game- Progress through days, things get more difficult as you climb in days survived, players have to quest through 5 worlds to reach the epilogue, abandoning all progress in their previous world to move on to the next.

DST ditch’s this in favor of fetch and kill quests, fight X Boss, Do Y Task- Unlock Moon Rifts!

uhh.. Yay I guess??? But that’s NOT My idea of progression.

The game should climb in difficulty the longer days you’ve stayed alive, things like new seasons, new mobs inhabiting the constant trying to kill you, new challenges that you know.. aren’t going to be locked behind a Boss or a 5 hour collectathon.

THATS My idea of Progression. And that’s what people wanted when everyone got excited for a “Through the Ages” concept.

Why Klei abandons this in favor of locking people out of enjoying new content until they fight several late game bosses or do a several hours long quest is absolutely beyond me…

Thank god they were kind enough to add this new content as a world Gen option, I’ll get to enjoy the new stuff without spending a real world year getting to it.

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25 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

The staff that got a nerf in the recent patch right? Overall Klei has an intended balance for how they want weapons to perform and how they want mobs to interact with them. If something is over/under performing Klei will tune it as they feel the need in doing so.

But YOUR Idea of Progression, and MY Idea Of Progression probably aren’t the same thing.

I don’t even think KLEI’s Idea of Progression (at least when it comes to DST) is the same as Mine.

My idea of progression is more like the single player game- Progress through days, things get more difficult as you climb in days survived, players have to quest through 5 worlds to reach the epilogue, abandoning all progress in their previous world to move on to the next.

DST ditch’s this in favor of fetch and kill quests, fight X Boss, Do Y Task- Unlock Moon Rifts!

uhh.. Yay I guess??? But that’s NOT My idea of progression.

The game should climb in difficulty the longer days you’ve stayed alive, things like new seasons, new mobs inhabiting the constant trying to kill you, new challenges that you know.. aren’t going to be locked behind a Boss or a 5 hour collectathon.

THATS My idea of Progression. And that’s what people wanted when everyone got excited for a “Through the Ages” concept.

Why Klei abandons this in favor of locking people out of enjoying new content until they fight several late game bosses or do a several hours long quest is absolutely beyond me…

Thank god they were kind enough to add this new content as a world Gen option, I’ll get to enjoy the new stuff without spending a real world year getting to it.

I agree with you here, I think we have a lot more in common than you might assume. Yeah they nerfed the staff yesterday but I think it’s in a pretty good spot now. Haven’t got to do any extensive testing but it’s fun and unique.

And it’s not useless like it was.

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On 4/18/2023 at 11:51 PM, Mike23Ua said:

I love how people complain about the new sword being the same as the old sword.. I mean what were you expecting it to do??? Allow you to unleash a rift of moon glass across the ground like the Shattered Spiders do? 

Actually yeah..

That would be frickin cool if it did that.

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On 4/18/2023 at 4:51 PM, Mike23Ua said:

I love how people complain about the new sword being the same as the old sword.. I mean what were you expecting it to do??? Allow you to unleash a rift of moon glass across the ground like the Shattered Spiders do? 

Yes.

If the game is going to have more “progression” and more tiers of weapons and weapon choices, then those weapons should be different from each other so getting and using the new weapons is actually fun.
Imagine if all of terraria’s melee weapons were just projectile swords (or alternatively play calamity mod and you don’t need to imagine); it’d be really boring. Later weapons aren’t just better because they have higher stats, they’re better because it’s easier to hit enemies with them (or they have some other unique niche).

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