Should the duelist attack gem deers from klaus?

[Loonytoony]

I tried fight klaus as Maxwell and my duelist started attacking the gem deers and made klaus enraged. I'm wondering if you guys think this should be kept or not

[Mysterious box]

This is how all followers work they'll attack hostile mobs which deers are.

[ADM]

31 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

This is how all followers work they'll attack hostile mobs which deers are.

True but some case by case tweak to this could probably be healthy to consider. Adding some general "badtarget" tag to deers and potential other mobs that aren’t beneficial for the player to attack prior to others by the use of followers would be smart, just not all of them for more flavor with your choice of followers… like pigs and such I wouldn’t expect them to know better but for character summons like Max's shadows and Abigail I think it would fit if they had a better target pick in this situation.

[Jestymun]

I don't think this should be changed for maxwell duelists in particular. If it is changed it should be a global follower change.

[Arcwell]

You can avoid this by summoning the duelists closer to Klaus.

Duelists will go after the closest enemy to them after they spawn until that enemy dies or phases (if possible, i.e. shadow rook/bishop), meaning as long as Klaus is the closest target when they spawn, they will never attack the deer.

I find shadow prison helps a lot for setting this up.

[LeafyFly]

41 minutes ago, ADM said:

True but some case by case tweak to this could probably be healthy to consider. Adding some general "badtarget" tag to deers and potential other mobs that aren’t beneficial for the player to attack prior to others by the use of followers would be smart, just not all of them for more flavor with your choice of followers… like pigs and such I wouldn’t expect them to know better but for character summons like Max's shadows and Abigail I think it would fit if they had a better target pick in this situation.

But gem deers are hostile creatures. They attack you when you're close to them.

[Gashzer]

1 hour ago, ADM said:

True but some case by case tweak to this could probably be healthy to consider. Adding some general "badtarget" tag to deers and potential other mobs that aren’t beneficial for the player to attack prior to others by the use of followers would be smart, just not all of them for more flavor with your choice of followers… like pigs and such I wouldn’t expect them to know better but for character summons like Max's shadows and Abigail I think it would fit if they had a better target pick in this situation.

And wurts merm guards.... imagine how easy klaus would be if her merms never attacked the deer.

All followers being bad at fighting klaus feels intentional... hope they don't give special treatment to any of them.

[ADM]

1 hour ago, LeafyFly said:

But gem deers are hostile creatures. They attack you when you're close to them.

Doesn’t change that you’re not gonna attack them yourself despite they’re hostile or not, I'd appreciate the summons of characters would do the same for that very reason. It’s a change that can be done easily if that’s your concern.

1 minute ago, Gashzer said:

And wurts merm guards.... imagine how easy klaus would be if her merms never attacked the deer.

I wouldn’t want it for merms, they’re as basic followers as pigs to me.

[Gashzer]

1 hour ago, ADM said:

Doesn’t change that you’re not gonna attack them yourself despite they’re hostile or not, I'd appreciate the summons of characters would do the same for that very reason. It’s a change that can be done easily if that’s your concern.

I wouldn’t want it for merms, they’re as basic followers as pigs to me.

Nah see thats not fair, you cant group maxwell duelists and abigail together and be like oh they are "summons" so they get special follower treatment. They are followers plain and simple. Either give merms, spiders, grumble bees and bernie the same buff for fighting klaus or non of them get buffed.

[Cheggf]

If you spawn the duelists far enough away that the deer won't enter their aggro range you can attack Klaus and they will leave their circle to start hitting Klaus. It should stay how it is right now.

[ADM]

1 hour ago, Gashzer said:

Nah see thats not fair, you cant group maxwell duelists and abigail together and be like oh they are "summons" so they get special follower treatment. They are followers plain and simple. Either give merms, spiders, grumble bees and bernie the same buff for fighting klaus or non of them get buffed.

Each followers can get a bit of their special treatments and behaviors, they’ve never been all equal and don’t need to be, things like Loyal Merm Guards and their resistance to BQ's screech is one advantage not every followers should have but it’s good. Abigail and the duelists are literal summons from the characters regardless you like the word or not I’m purposely considering only these two as to me someone like the character sister and their puppets could definitely be less simple minded that your everyday pigman and spider that probably aren’t fit to follow a specific strategy the player anyway consider. You’re more than welcome to disagree but in my book that interpretation is more than fair.

[Ohan]

Everything every minion character has had to deal with since forever is now suddenly unacceptable for maxwell its so wild.

And max already has it much easier in literally every aspect of being a minion character compared to them. 

[MadMatt]

I don't like the idea of this change since Klaus is one of a few bosses who won't pursue a player for an incredibly long period of time, and is also tied down to one spot. Making it so that duelists don't run any risk of attacking deer gems would trivialize this fight for Maxwell for no discernible reason. He already has a spell which can be utilized to avoid the duelists from attacking the gem deers, having it so that he can summon duelists away from the fight whenever they die and run back in without risking them locking onto the wrong target is unnecessary imo.

EDIT: The more I think about it the more I hate it. It'd remove a cool synergy between shadow prison and duelists that doesn't just amount to "lol the boss can't move anymore" and that's sad.

[ZelosCharm]

I don't think this is a problem for maxwell really ;

His minions prioritize the closest mob first when summoned,  you can easily prison klaus and spawn your minions on top of him to make them target klaus.

[Frosty_Mentos]

Sounds awfully inconvenient to have them attack the deers. Technically they are just enslaved by Klaus to cast his spells, I feel like it should be logical for shadows to ignore them.

[Cheggf]

25 minutes ago, Frosty_Mentos said:

Sounds awfully inconvenient to have them attack the deers. Technically they are just enslaved by Klaus to cast his spells, I feel like it should be logical for shadows to ignore them.

Most enemies (koalefants, bearger, deerclops, bee queen, etc) are just animals minding their own business that you pick a fight with. Should duelists ignore them?

[DinsdaleP]

7 hours ago, Gashzer said:

And wurts merm guards.... imagine how easy klaus would be if her merms never attacked the deer.

hate to be the burster of bubbles, but that's how it was before the Wurt "rework", merms more or less followed your lead, rarely aggroing onto the deer... and it was glorious, Klaus being the annoying boss he is. video showcasing Klaus kill

[Qairon]

43 minutes ago, Cheggf said:

Most enemies (koalefants, bearger, deerclops, bee queen, etc) are just animals minding their own business that you pick a fight with. Should duelists ignore them?

I agree with that point but not so much grouping deerclops in that list of animals. They are the only boss that purposely seeks out other players destruction. Bearger has similar spawn mechanics, with the exception he won't actually pursue you unless you've got a big Mac with extra honey in the fridge or on your person's. (Now that I think about it, there's an argument to be made if Deerclops as a species are still in the right here since the constant could just be their extended territory and us building our base just happens to be a challenge to them. They can literally be appeased by destroying structures,  and after that, I do believe they are non hostile technically as they walk away.) I do find the whole DST animal behavior stuff fascinating and wished there was an ingame bestiary that gave more context to them all, similar to the cookbook and gardening hat. 

Back on topic, Wendy is actually a unique case as a mob because she can be set to passive, in which case she does follow your lead. It's entirely possible to have Abigail assist with the fight with some clever footwork and positioning, so that she does not disturb the deer with her aoe attacks. I think she would still take Klaus hits decently often this way so the regeneration potion would probably be good here, but she has a far easier time than most summons already. In similarity, Maxwell has two ways that his shadows can already target Klaus and I won't point them out again since someone else already has.

Also, have you ever actually tried this fight with other minion characters out of curiosity? It's hell. This fight was never meant to be an easy battle for any follower-oriented play- the magic of the deer multiplies in effectiveness against too many targets, making Klaus nearly unhittable for half the fight unless you like walking through active volcano zones and blizzards. Klaus is one of the most sacred bosses to me for this very reason, along with Deerclops. These bosses are true tests of player skill and determination at their peak, and punish methods like facetanking and summon/minion spam like no other. I very much do not think ANY follower should get special priority for him.

[Cheggf]

49 minutes ago, Qairon said:

I agree with that point but not so much grouping deerclops in that list of animals. They are the only boss that purposely seeks out other players destruction.

Technically deerclops doesn't go after the player and only cares about destroying your structures. I believe it is legally not self defense to stay near your property such as a business and use lethal force on those trying to damage or steal from it, so if Charlie gets a Shadow Lawyer you will probably be found guilty by her very biased Shadow Judge and Shadow Jury.

[Qairon]

26 minutes ago, Cheggf said:

Technically deerclops doesn't go after the player and only cares about destroying your structures. I believe it is legally not self defense to stay near your property such as a business and use lethal force on those trying to damage or steal from it, so if Charlie gets a Shadow Lawyer you will probably be found guilty by her very biased Shadow Judge and Shadow Jury.

I didn't know I needed an Ace Attorney DLC for DST until now.

[LDee]

Does it even matter when Maxwell is so broken that he can beat enraged Klaus without taking any damage?

[Loonytoony]

4 hours ago, LDee said:

Does it even matter when Maxwell is so broken that he can beat enraged Klaus without taking any damage?

you can say that for all characters as long as the person playing is good

[ZeRoboButler]

Best method I found was to spawn the duelist away from Klaus all together, for some reason, if you target something and they are some distance away, they will make a tremendous effort to attack the first thing you hit this way.

usually goes like this - 

1. trap klaus in cage whilst sanity is still full
2. spawn shadows away from deer and klaus all together
3. "sic" the shadows onto klaus with an attack on klaus

funny thing is about these shadows, in a good way and also a odd way, the shadows won't change targets. So once they are on klaus, they stick on till he's dead, or until they die.

should they die (and they probably will) you just trap him again and summon them directly under him so he is the closest target, works pretty well I'd say.

[LDee]

29 minutes ago, Loonytoony said:

you can say that for all characters as long as the person playing is good

Completely false.  To beat Klaus without taking damage as any other character, you need to be very good, very knowledgable about Klaus, take extensive preperations and fight him for a long time.

 

With Maxwell, all you need is some nightmare fuel and cooked cactus flesh.  

[Loonytoony]

14 minutes ago, LDee said:

Completely false.  To beat Klaus without taking damage as any other character, you need to be very good, very knowledgable about Klaus, take extensive preperations and fight him for a long time.

 

With Maxwell, all you need is some nightmare fuel and cooked cactus flesh.  

You forgot to mention the fact that if Maxwell messes up even slightly during the fight he's going to be taking a lot of damage and he only has 75 hp unless he's wearing something like a marble suit at the time, he's kind screwed.

He also has to time his shadow prison to trap the darn thing to make sure he isn't going to become sliced up Maxwell sushi.