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Current Maxwell Needs to be Changed or Nerfed


LDee

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After testing out Maxwell more and more, I'm more and more convinced that his current iteration is overpowered in a bad way.

What I mean by that is that if you play as Maxwell, you basically fight every boss with one strategy: spam Shadow Prison and spam Duelists.  No dodging required, no engaging in the actual fight required, hardly any knowledge about the actual boss is required, as long as you have like 5-10 nightmare fuel on you and either cooked cactus or a bone helm, you can beat almost every boss with minimal resources, using almost the exact same strategy and in a decent amount of time.

I think it's because of two reasons:

1. Shadow Prison disables bosses.

It allows Maxwell to just disable the most difficult aspect of certain bosses which should never be a thing.  Having specific characters that counter specific bosses is a good thing. Disabling as in being able to effectively eliminate the ability altogether is not.  Shadow Prison disables Dragonfly's lavae, more difficult kiting pattern and enrage mode.  Shadow Prison disables Bee Queen's grumble bees. Shadow Prison disables Twins of Terror's most dangerous ability: double teaming you and its rapid charge attack.  Shadow Prison disables Celestial Champions most annoying/difficult movement mechanics.

 

2. Duelists are way too strong. 

Compare them to any other character-specific minion and it becomes painfully clear.

Abigail: 

HP: 600      DPS:  15, 25, 40   Max Quantity: 1    Can be healed by an expensive potion over the course of 30 sec.  Won't be at full power until half a day if killed in battle.

Dualists:

HP: 750 (effective against bosses) DPS: 22+   Max Quantity: 6  Can be summoned back at full health for 1/5 of a nightmare fuel if killed in battle.

Against bosses, each duelists is about equal to an Abigail at full HP and doing dusk damage.  Wendy can summon 1 at a time, Maxwell can summon 6. If Abigail goes down, Wendy becomes Wes. If a duelist goes down, Maxwell spends 1/5 of a nightmare fuel.

 

Let's compare to Webber now:

 

Webber needs to acquire monster meat and search all over the map to get spiders that won't die to bosses in a single hit. He also needs to get the resources for nurse switcherdoodles in order to keep his spiders alive in combat. This process can easily take more than a day.  Maxwell can have more than enough fuel for a raid boss by fighting nightmares for a minute or two. 

Webber's minions are balanced against raid bosses by mechanics like panic, freeze, fire, sleep, area of effect attacks, bosses using consecutive attacks.  Maxwell's minions cannot be panicked, are immune to freeze, immune to fire, are immune to attacks like Toadstool's sporeclouds, are immune to sleep, can't be hit consecutively and can even walk on water.

Like Wendy, if all Webber's minions die, he becomes Wilson.  If all Maxwell's minions die, he uses a single nightmare fuel.

 

I again think that Shadow Prison should be removed from the game, but if it must be kept, it should be way more expensive.  The same is true for the duelists.  A mob that can tank 4 hits from bosses, dish out 22+ damage per second and is completely immune to fire, freeze, sleep, spores, panic and can't be hit multiple times in a row has to be way more expensive than 1/5 of a nightmare fuel.  It should be at least 1 nightmare fuel each.  If you think making Shadow Prison and Duelists too expensive will scare off the newer players, then make it so that the cost scales with the number of targets being trapped and number of duelists being summoned.

Anyway, just my 2cents. Maybe I'm completely wrong and Maxwell as he is is well-balanced, I just think that it's just way to easy to spam his incredibly effective moves.

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Just now, LDee said:

And here I thought the purpose of betas was to get player feedback...

It is, but the point of his minions IS to take on bosses, try them against a hoard of about 50-100 spiders and then report back.

However, that doesn’t mean that the duelists aren’t cheap. I would rather have more powerful and more expensive duelists. I respect your opinion, but I wouldn’t call the current duelists overpowered.

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1 minute ago, TitanicTigrex said:

It is, but the point of his minions IS to take on bosses, try them against a hoard of about 50-100 spiders and then report back.

1) The developers said the point of his minions is to take on bosses?

2) Even given #1 is true, that doesn't address any of the points I've made.

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Hi, just want to say that disabling boss mechanics is not a new thing, nor do I think it's problematic.

Here are some examples:

  • Walls disable Dragonfly's lavae
  • Boats disable Bee Queen's kiting
  • Pan flute disables Bee Queen's grumble bees
  • Pan flute disables all of Eye of Terror and Twins' attacks (including minion spawning)
  • Alarming Clock disables CC's phase 3 kiting
  • Campfires / starcaller staff disables Deerclops' freeze effect
  • Bee Queen Crown disables sanity aura from a whole host of bosses.
  • Signs (or fossils, endtables, etc.) block Klaus' deer

In all of these examples you still have to fight the boss, it's just easier. Shadow prison is no different.

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19 minutes ago, Arcwell said:

Hi, just want to say that disabling boss mechanics is not a new thing, nor do I think it's problematic.

Here are some examples:

  • Walls disable Dragonfly's lavae
  • Boats disable Bee Queen's kiting
  • Pan flute disables Bee Queen's grumble bees
  • Pan flute disables all of Eye of Terror and Twins' attacks (including minion spawning)
  • Alarming Clock disables CC's phase 3 kiting
  • Campfires / starcaller staff disables Deerclops' freeze effect
  • Bee Queen Crown disables sanity aura from a whole host of bosses.
  • Signs (or fossils, endtables, etc.) block Klaus' deer

In all of these examples you still have to fight the boss, it's just easier. Shadow prison is no different.

I don't think you understand the point I'm making.  

Some of your examples do not fall under disabling a boss (like alarming clock). The ones that do either disable a very minor ability of a boss, or use a very niche, boss-specific strategy or resource intense strategy in order to disable 1 ability of a boss.

They all require you to actually know how the boss works, actively engage in the fight, doesn't break the fight, and/or are still resource intense.  

 

Now contrast that to Maxwell who has one dirt-cheap move that disables the most difficult abilities of multiple raid bosses and another dirt-cheap move that creates minions that are far more powerful than the other minion-users which allow him to beat almost all the raid bosses without engaging with them and while using the same strategy over and over.

 

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5 minutes ago, Arcwell said:

This is what I was referring to.

Oh well that's something that Klei should definitely change as it does break the fight just like they should have changed the mechanic where Fuel Weaver could get stunlocked by Wanda or she could hit Klaus across the loot stash.

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You want to stay back and let the puppets do the killing for you? 

That's fine!

 

You want to join the fight and bully monsters?

That's also fine!

(Just make sure to pay your fuel taxes or terrorbeaks will come to collect it)

Balancing is fine but nerfing Maxwell back to the oblivion is not going to happen. He is in the sweet spot right now, tweaking his skills unnecessarily will just ruin the character again.

 

Also, please stop comparing characters. This isn't a competitive pvp mumbojumbo.

 

I love playing Woodie, Wurt, Wortox and Webber very very much and they are all very fun to play.

There are others who love playing Wendy, Wanda, Wilson and even Wes! Because they have fun and not because they are "meta" or "OP"  

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I think we should not compare each character because each of them have their own special power that cannot be matched by other character.

If we gonna compare Abigail and Duelist, well:

- Abigail can be summoned for free anytime without need to be recharged, follow Wendy all the time, can whack army of spiders, but cannot deal with bosses. While with Maxwell's Duelist, it is strong versus boss but wrecked by army of spiders, with time limit of 2 minutes instead of permanent follow

- Abigail can deal her maximum damage every night time or buffed with Potion, Maxwell Duelist can only deal maximum 60 damage if Maxwell already beat Ancient Fuelweaver, based from this comparison, it is clear that 60 damage per Duelist is the reward after going far in the game, while Abigail doesn't need much effort to get her to deal 40 dmg

- Abigail has light source when she reached 600 hp, Wendy is almost always safe from Charlie, while Maxwell's Duelist don't. Without armor, Maxwell will get 1 hit-KO from Charlie, while Wendy still can survive 1hit from Charlie.

It is same with other characters, like Winona that can built 10 Catapults to deal with Dragonfly / Ancient Fuelweaver's woven shadows that can be reused by anyone by just refilling the Generators with Nitre / Gem. Can Maxwell / Wendy's perks still be used after changing character? nope..

This is like a rock-paper-scissors situation, no one really wins / super OP as they have their own strength and weaknesses, yes nerf and balancing can be done as needed, but Maxwell is not that OP as people think, because it takes a while before Maxwell's Duelist can achieve their full strength.

Just sharing, I do hope for the best rework for Maxwell, cheers! 

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We already have a way to defeat any bosses much quicker and easier by Wanda under volt goat jelly for example. She destroy any boss in few seconds. Wolfgang literally have double dmg

No, Maxwell is not overpowered, he strong enough to be called King of Constant and Shadow Master I think. Don't forget, to have full power you need to be constantly insane and vear rare equipment 

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4 hours ago, TitanicTigrex said:

I’m pretty sure they know what they’re doing, buddy.

If the devs are flawless and never do anything less than impeccable perfection there's no reason to go to the beta forums, so why are you here?

Anyways I think Maxwell is really overpowered, but giving him some more downsides would be much more fun than just nerfing him. He would still be able to have this incredibly fun power, but need to worry about some fun downsides as well. 

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19 minutes ago, Cheggf said:

Anyways I think Maxwell is really overpowered, but giving him some more downsides would be much more fun than just nerfing him. He would still be able to have this incredibly fun power, but need to worry about some fun downsides as well. 

I know, I know. Let rain damage his brain incredibly fast. Cause it can destroy his classy costume

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7 hours ago, LDee said:

After testing out Maxwell more and more, I'm more and more convinced that his current iteration is overpowered in a bad way.

What I mean by that is that if you play as Maxwell, you basically fight every boss with one strategy: spam Shadow Prison and spam Duelists.  No dodging required, no engaging in the actual fight required, hardly any knowledge about the actual boss is required, as long as you have like 5-10 nightmare fuel on you and either cooked cactus or a bone helm, you can beat almost every boss with minimal resources, using almost the exact same strategy and in a decent amount of time.

I think it's because of two reasons:

1. Shadow Prison disables bosses.

It allows Maxwell to just disable the most difficult aspect of certain bosses which should never be a thing.  Having specific characters that counter specific bosses is a good thing. Disabling as in being able to effectively eliminate the ability altogether is not.  Shadow Prison disables Dragonfly's lavae, more difficult kiting pattern and enrage mode.  Shadow Prison disables Bee Queen's grumble bees. Shadow Prison disables Twins of Terror's most dangerous ability: double teaming you and its rapid charge attack.  Shadow Prison disables Celestial Champions most annoying/difficult movement mechanics.

 

2. Duelists are way too strong. 

Compare them to any other character-specific minion and it becomes painfully clear.

Abigail: 

HP: 600      DPS:  15, 25, 40   Max Quantity: 1    Can be healed by an expensive potion over the course of 30 sec.  Won't be at full power until half a day if killed in battle.

Dualists:

HP: 750 (effective against bosses) DPS: 22+   Max Quantity: 6  Can be summoned back at full health for 1/5 of a nightmare fuel if killed in battle.

Against bosses, each duelists is about equal to an Abigail at full HP and doing dusk damage.  Wendy can summon 1 at a time, Maxwell can summon 6. If Abigail goes down, Wendy becomes Wes. If a duelist goes down, Maxwell spends 1/5 of a nightmare fuel.

 

Let's compare to Webber now:

 

Webber needs to acquire monster meat and search all over the map to get spiders that won't die to bosses in a single hit. He also needs to get the resources for nurse switcherdoodles in order to keep his spiders alive in combat. This process can easily take more than a day.  Maxwell can have more than enough fuel for a raid boss by fighting nightmares for a minute or two. 

Webber's minions are balanced against raid bosses by mechanics like panic, freeze, fire, sleep, area of effect attacks, bosses using consecutive attacks.  Maxwell's minions cannot be panicked, are immune to freeze, immune to fire, are immune to attacks like Toadstool's sporeclouds, are immune to sleep, can't be hit consecutively and can even walk on water.

Like Wendy, if all Webber's minions die, he becomes Wilson.  If all Maxwell's minions die, he uses a single nightmare fuel.

 

I again think that Shadow Prison should be removed from the game, but if it must be kept, it should be way more expensive.  The same is true for the duelists.  A mob that can tank 4 hits from bosses, dish out 22+ damage per second and is completely immune to fire, freeze, sleep, spores, panic and can't be hit multiple times in a row has to be way more expensive than 1/5 of a nightmare fuel.  It should be at least 1 nightmare fuel each.  If you think making Shadow Prison and Duelists too expensive will scare off the newer players, then make it so that the cost scales with the number of targets being trapped and number of duelists being summoned.

Anyway, just my 2cents. Maybe I'm completely wrong and Maxwell as he is is well-balanced, I just think that it's just way to easy to spam his incredibly effective moves.

If we go by the character comparison logic, everyone should be nerfed, Webber for example is extremely OP because he has no spider limit, that is, he can be infinitely healed, they should put a limit on him.....For example 20 spiders... ..

What amazes me the most is the following, few here are really good at the game and that's why they think that playing with any character is ''easy'' but they forget that for most people that's not how it works....And in that they want to impose the personal taste of playing something extremely difficult and boring for the rest..... I'm glad the developers have some sense....And I'm glad there are mods.....

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3 minutes ago, Digi62BR said:

If we go by the character comparison logic, everyone should be nerfed, Webber for example is extremely OP because he has no spider limit, that is, he can be infinitely healed, they should put a limit on him.....For example 20 spiders... ..

Not really a fair comparison. I think Maxwell is in an okay position right now and don't care about pushing for a nerf, but he can't be compared to Webber who requires so much more time, effort, resources, and even luck to use spider armies. Even then, some bosses just straight up disable his spiders anyways meanwhile Maxwell gets almost as much effectiveness for cheap and can be utilized basically no matter the situation.

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7 minutes ago, MadMatt said:

Not really a fair comparison. I think Maxwell is in an okay position right now and don't care about pushing for a nerf, but he can't be compared to Webber who requires so much more time, effort, resources, and even luck to use spider armies. Even then, some bosses just straight up disable his spiders anyways meanwhile Maxwell gets almost as much effectiveness for cheap and can be utilized basically no matter the situation.

Webber has 100 more health than Maxwell, he can eat monster meat, farming meat with him is like breathing.... He can sleep in cocoons.... About the bosses killing his army, the same happens with the shadows, yet more because they have only 75 health, while they fear spiders with up to 400 health..... Cultivating an ''army'' for both is boring, for Maxwell it spends nightmare and sanity in addition to needing all a specific equipment, Thing that the webber does not need - to be tied to the equipment he uses -

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2 minutes ago, Digi62BR said:

Webber has 100 more health than Maxwell, he can eat monster meat, farming meat with him is like breathing.... He can sleep in cocoons.... About the bosses killing his army, the same happens with the shadows, yet more because they have only 75 health, while they fear spiders with up to 400 health..... Cultivating an ''army'' for both is boring, for Maxwell it spends nightmare and sanity in addition to needing all a specific equipment, Thing that the webber does not need - to be tied to the equipment he uses -

Well the Maxwell duelists have effectively far more than 75 health since I believe only a maximum of 15 damage can be done to them at a time. Also if we're talking other benefits then Maxwell also benefits from eating Monster Meat since sanity is rarely an issue with his permanent +6.75 modifier, and all Maxwell needs to offset his low health is Night Armor which he can wear at all times with no downside. We're also ignoring the fact that Maxwell also gets a cheap and easy shadow chester, has very good CC for the cost of a mere 15 sanity, can farm nightmare fuel incredibly efficiently by using Shadow Sneak on rabbits and Splumonkeys, and has unmatched gathering abilities.

Webber has the things you've stated and a spider army that can fight some of the bosses on their own.

I've said this many times, almost verbatim, but Maxwell is incredibly strong because he has a slew of incredibly powerful and unmatched upsides at the cost of one (1) downside. Yes Webber and Maxwell ARE different, but that doesn't mean it's impossible for one to be stronger than the other. Maxwell is undoubtedly stronger considering the time and resources it takes Webber to match just one aspect of Maxwell's character.

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Adjusted maybe, sure. Definitely not changed nor nerfed. His current status in the beta feels on par with most characters, some characters even being stronger than him. His mechanics is very interesting and versatile and does not require you to just press F and walk backwards a couple of times as some people would want every character to be. 

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Characters will NEVER be equal towards each other and i don't understand why people think they are. 
This isn't a competition who's the better character, it's preference, abilities, stats, and personality that makes you want specifically to play em. Each one gives you a different experience Whether they're easy, tough, complicated, basic, sometimes more downsides than upsides, sometimes the opposite.
Maxwell doesn't get the luxury of easy spider farming as webber, or especially Wendy, or 2x dmg for free as Wolfgang, or free teleportation as Wortox, or insane speed like WX. 
No character in this game is bloody equal apart from the ones' who are quite basic like Wilson and even that will change soon enough so i don't understand why we pretend they have to be. 

Maxwell is part faction character, but that does not mean he has to be equal to the others. Nerfing the duelists make no sense when:
1. he has to participate as 1 of the 2nd lowest hp characters for full dmg output for his duelists otherwise their dmg degrades.
2. His duelists are limited. 
3. his biggest dmg output is locked behind an endgame boss and expensive gear.
When Wurt who has to do a little bit more work doesn't have any of these problems if you put the work into it. She has endless supply of merms/guards who do 50 dmg each with a king around with better stats than maxwell and can just watch it go down. So why nerf Maxwell when Wurt can do this? Simple, preference. Hell Webber has an easier time to amass spiders and if you know how to get nurses early those things will not die.

Let Maxwell be his own character instead of comparing him to the others. 



 

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1 hour ago, Digi62BR said:

Webber has 100 more health than Maxwell, he can eat monster meat, farming meat with him is like breathing.... He can sleep in cocoons.... About the bosses killing his army, the same happens with the shadows, yet more because they have only 75 health, while they fear spiders with up to 400 health..... Cultivating an ''army'' for both is boring, for Maxwell it spends nightmare and sanity in addition to needing all a specific equipment, Thing that the webber does not need - to be tied to the equipment he uses -

And Maxwell has access to wicker's books, the best harvesting abilities, crowd control abilities, a passive tamo, and is less penalized for using nightmare equipment can't give my comment on whose army building is more fun since that's more of a opinion but Maxwell army building isn't even really a thing since even the fuel weaver buffs his followers are good and at the mid tier nightmare set/thulecite set it's just things people normally already do naturally. Also spending max sanity doesn't not equal spending sanity yes if your current sanity is higher than what your about to spend you'll lose that but if it's already low your not really spending anything aside from fuel.

6 hours ago, Thundario Watt said:

I think we should not compare each character because each of them have their own special power that cannot be matched by other character.

Problem is for the most part this isn't really true as some of the better characters tend to completely replace the roles of the weaker ones but eh

 

6 hours ago, Thundario Watt said:

If we gonna compare Abigail Wand Duelist, well:

- Abigail can be summoned for free anytime without need to be recharged, follow Wendy all the time, can whack army of spiders, but cannot deal with bosses. While with Maxwell's Duelist, it is strong versus boss but wrecked by army of spiders, with time limit of 2 minutes instead of permanent follow

- Abigail can deal her maximum damage every night time or buffed with Potion, Maxwell Duelist can only deal maximum 60 damage if Maxwell already beat Ancient Fuelweaver, based from this comparison, it is clear that 60 damage per Duelist is the reward after going far in the game, while Abigail doesn't need much effort to get her to deal 40 dmg

- Abigail has light source when she reached 600 hp, Wendy is almost always safe from Charlie, while Maxwell's Duelist don't. Without armor, Maxwell will get 1 hit-KO from Charlie, while Wendy still can survive 1hit from Charlie.

Maxwell's followers by default do more damage than Abigial simply because there's more of them but even with basic nightmare equipment they deal 4 damage more than her on each shadow at 44 damage per hit not including the slash dash attack which does even more. Also making the comparasion who will survive night damage without armor is kinda silly.

 

6 hours ago, DajeKotlyar said:

We already have a way to defeat any bosses much quicker and easier by Wanda under volt goat jelly for example. She destroy any boss in few seconds. Wolfgang literally have double dmg

No, Maxwell is not overpowered, he strong enough to be called King of Constant and Shadow Master I think. Don't forget, to have full power you need to be constantly insane and vear rare equipment 

I'm not for Maxwell getting a nerf but Personally I find Maxwell far more overpowered than Wolfgang or Wanda in his current state his peak damage output doesn't exceed Wolfgang or Wanda buffed with Warly dishes but it's already really high despite being a character who excels in far more areas than them while being the top character in those categories then layer that with Wickerbottom's books and he's just so far beyond the rest of the cast it's kind of crazy.

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1 minute ago, Gi-Go said:

Now there's a guy who barely tested Maxwell but is ready to explain us how OP he is. Was wondering when he gonna show up. 

the guy that probably played maxwell for the first time now, never played him on solo or toguether, but oh well

14 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

that with Wickerbottom's books and he's just so far beyond the rest of the cast it's kind of crazy.

and for you as we said yesterday, that dosent make any diference, changing caracters is so easy now days that is crazy. maxwell have his clear downside about using them, and in some times is just better for the wicker to have somone else to read when they dont want or arent near

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1 hour ago, Mysterious box said:

And Maxwell has access to wicker's books, the best harvesting abilities, crowd control abilities, a passive tamo, and is less penalized for using nightmare equipment can't give my comment on whose army building is more fun since that's more of a opinion but Maxwell army building isn't even really a thing since even the fuel weaver buffs his followers are good and at the mid tier nightmare set/thulecite set it's just things people normally already do naturally. Also spending max sanity doesn't not equal spending sanity yes if your current sanity is higher than what your about to spend you'll lose that but if it's already low your not really spending anything aside from fuel.

Problem is for the most part this isn't really true as some of the better characters tend to completely replace the roles of the weaker ones but eh

 

Maxwell's followers by default do more damage than Abigial simply because there's more of them but even with basic nightmare equipment they deal 4 damage more than her on each shadow at 44 damage per hit not including the slash dash attack which does even more. Also making the comparasion who will survive night damage without armor is kinda silly.

 

I'm not for Maxwell getting a nerf but Personally I find Maxwell far more overpowered than Wolfgang or Wanda in his current state his peak damage output doesn't exceed Wolfgang or Wanda buffed with Warly dishes but it's already really high despite being a character who excels in far more areas than them while being the top character in those categories then layer that with Wickerbottom's books and he's just so far beyond the rest of the cast it's kind of crazy.

Well then let's ask Winona for a nerf too after all all characters have access to her catapults after they are ready, just like maxwell has access to books after they are ready, and detail to use catapult you don't lose anything only gems, and maxwell loses more sanity than the wicker.....And remember if there are no catapult limits on the map soon you can melt all the bosses.....

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