Should Weather Pain Hurt Followers?

[JazzyGames]

A weapon deployed from the hands of a player, targeting an enemy, to me should not be able to randomly hurt minions or followers if it can't hurt other players.

This issue came up during Wickerbottom's rework as well, and as far as I know tornados can still hurt grumble bees. This becomes an issue particularly while fighting Crab King with Shadow Duelists. With Wicker it wasn't a problem because maxed out bees can out-DPS the healing and occasionally just cancel the heals. By contrast, six shadow duelists will very rarely hit enough times to cancel the heals and the DPS is not even close to outpacing, so they need extra assistance from Maxwell. If I start casting weather pains then likely all duelists will die and need to be resummoned for next round.

All that said I get that the weather pain was intended to be a weapon with a more "random" nature so it makes sense if the design was intended to potentially damage allies, it's just frustrating how few options there are for cancelling CK heals in a solo fight. Perhaps I take more issue with Crab King than I do with the weather pain but it would certainly be nice if I could use the weapon without worrying about hurting allies.

What do you think?

[Pig Princess]

I agree with suggestion about shadow duelists, but I would like weather pain to still hit Abigail. The reason is one can use tornado as Wendy to summon Abigail's shield and protect her from more powerful attack, for example, from melee of Celestial Champion in phase 3 (hit with any other weapon from Wendy results in desummoning Abigail).

[SinancoTheBest]

Weather pain DOES hurt other players though, no?

[Copyafriend]

Mmm. No i think the weather pain is fine as is. Its the downside for the weather pain, otherwise you could cast it freely as a ranged weapon so long as u had them

[Hornete]

36 minutes ago, SinancoTheBest said:

Weather pain DOES hurt other players though, no?

It used to, but they changed it in DST to not damage players. You could damage yourself with it(and still can in DS).

[Cloakingsumo198]

Let's bring back killing people with weather pains.

[Mr Giggio]

Look mate its not like we could have any control at a tornado, eh? xD

[JazzyGames]

5 hours ago, Copyafriend said:

Mmm. No i think the weather pain is fine as is. Its the downside for the weather pain, otherwise you could cast it freely as a ranged weapon so long as u had them

Would that be a bad thing? No other ranged weapon has this downside, not staves, blowdarts, or the slingshot. Only weapon I can think of as being slightly dangerous is the boomerang but that can be prevented with proper use. Weather pains are definitely the most expensive ranged weapon so I think either way it deserves to be consistent with its targets.

[Copyafriend]

11 minutes ago, JazzyGames said:

Would that be a bad thing? No other ranged weapon has this downside, not staves, blowdarts, or the slingshot. Only weapon I can think of as being slightly dangerous is the boomerang but that can be prevented with proper use. Weather pains are definitely the most expensive ranged weapon so I think either way it deserves to be consistent with its targets.

Every ranged weapon has a downside.

 

the staves are a tool. and they BARELY do damage even with the ARGUABLY combat focused fire staff. 
 

the blowdarts are exceedingly expensive and time consuming to amass in any number worth having (unless you already have the hound teeth, but traps are more efficient)

the boomerang is extremely slow and low dps.

the slingshot is character exclusive. 

I am failing to see why you’d think ranged damage is anything resembling without downside

[JazzyGames]

11 hours ago, Copyafriend said:

Every ranged weapon has a downside.

 

the staves are a tool. and they BARELY do damage even with the ARGUABLY combat focused fire staff. 
 

the blowdarts are exceedingly expensive and time consuming to amass in any number worth having (unless you already have the hound teeth, but traps are more efficient)

the boomerang is extremely slow and low dps.

the slingshot is character exclusive. 

I am failing to see why you’d think ranged damage is anything resembling without downside

Allow me to clarify. I didn't say ranged weapons had no downside. I said they don't have THIS downside. You can talk about other downsides such as slow attack rate, low dps, or expense (sidenote: blowdarts don't even begin to approach the expense of weather pains). That's all good and well, downsides are great for balance purposes. My point is no other ranged weapon has the downside of incompatibility with followers.

[Copyafriend]

2 minutes ago, JazzyGames said:

Read my comment again. I didn't say ranged weapons had no downside. I said they don't have THIS downside. You can talk about other downsides such as slow attack rate, low dps, or expense (sidenote: blowdarts don't even begin to approach the expense of weather pains). That's all good and well, downsides are great for balance purposes. My point is no other ranged weapon is completely incompatible with followers.

I did in fact misread your comment, and im sorry about that.

but honestly i dont personally feel like weather pains are all that hard to amass. Just go on a killing spree during spring and you’ll have so many feathers. 
 

i mean i usually farm goats for food so that could be why i dont see them as expensive. 

[Jestymun]

The only things I ever really use the weatherpains against are AFW, Misery Toadstool, and Crab King. Their damage is just too low for their cost to be worth bringing along anywhere else for me. They feel more like a tool for specific situations than an actual weapon. They could be useful against hoards of splumonkeys or spiders or whatever I guess, but I don't carry them on me unless I have a good reason to. I don't think making weatherpains unable to damage followers would make them much stronger, it would just be nice for specific bossfights that you already bring them to anyways. It seems like there's no reason not to change it.
I've always gotten the impression that Klei is afraid to make any ranged combat options worthwhile, which seems silly to me. About as silly as grass tufts and saplings not being renewable. 

[Gashzer]

Surely with shadow puppets also attacking crab king, it should be easier to break his healing without the need for weather pains? Havn't tested it yet to confirm.

I do agree that the weather pain should hit follower mobs... its a chaotic tornado after all... i get the game logic of it not hitting other players as it conflicts with the "together" in dont starve together but hitting friendly mobs is fine and makes thematic/gameplay sense.

You can't have it all! 

[Frosty_Mentos]

It's a messy tool for messy situations. It's not really useful anymore anywhere since there's a lot more better solutions overall, so I don't really mind some change or buff to not hit your allies or something. Personally I'd say it's overpriced for what it's worth feather wise.

[JazzyGames]

20 hours ago, Jestymun said:

I don't think making weatherpains unable to damage followers would make them much stronger, it would just be nice for specific bossfights that you already bring them to anyways. It seems like there's no reason not to change it.

My point is that I can't bring WP for these boss fights if I'm using followers because the WP will eventually kill them. I would love to use them in conjunction with bees, merms, spiders, bunnymen, or duelists. But I can't and I can't really see a good reason why.

19 hours ago, Gashzer said:

Surely with shadow puppets also attacking crab king, it should be easier to break his healing without the need for weather pains? Havn't tested it yet to confirm.

I do agree that the weather pain should hit follower mobs... its a chaotic tornado after all... i get the game logic of it not hitting other players as it conflicts with the "together" in dont starve together but hitting friendly mobs is fine and makes thematic/gameplay sense.

You can't have it all! 

Haven't tested with the most recent changes but as of the start of the Beta, six duelists we're not enough to cancel the heals.

[Malfario]

30 minutes ago, JazzyGames said:

Haven't tested with the most recent changes but as of the start of the Beta, six duelists we're not enough to cancel the heals.

For what i tested the duelist are still not enough for canceling the heals, however there are two new aditions that come into play when doing crabking:

The duelist now have a caped dmg they can take and they will teleport like regular nightmare creatures when hit, a duelist can take 11 hits from a weather pain before dying.

And secondly, according to the patch notes the duelit have an increased dps when maxwell joins them on the fight, this doesnt seem to be working at the moment or is to little to notice, in case of it being a bug maxwell might be able to cancel the heals if he joins the fight, only problem is the absurd amount of boards.

As it is right now doing crabking with weather pains and duelists is not a bad method, a lot of damage so the fight ends quicker and needs less resourcess, and if you kill them you are going to ended up having to summon them again anyway because they dont last for the whole fight.

[JazzyGames]

6 hours ago, Malfario said:

For what i tested the duelist are still not enough for canceling the heals, however there are two new aditions that come into play when doing crabking:

The duelist now have a caped dmg they can take and they will teleport like regular nightmare creatures when hit, a duelist can take 11 hits from a weather pain before dying.

And secondly, according to the patch notes the duelit have an increased dps when maxwell joins them on the fight, this doesnt seem to be working at the moment or is to little to notice, in case of it being a bug maxwell might be able to cancel the heals if he joins the fight, only problem is the absurd amount of boards.

As it is right now doing crabking with weather pains and duelists is not a bad method, a lot of damage so the fight ends quicker and needs less resourcess, and if you kill them you are going to ended up having to summon them again anyway because they dont last for the whole fight.

Yeah I'm really interested to see how their DPS works out by the end of the beta; I'm hopeful that even if they can't cancel heals the DPS will eventually outpace the healing. That's also a good point about their increased resistance to WP damage; looking forward to trying that fight again!

[Cassielu]

I think whether or not the mob gets hurt from the weather pain should not change depending on whether or not they are followers...

[Malfario]

4 hours ago, JazzyGames said:

Yeah I'm really interested to see how their DPS works out by the end of the beta; I'm hopeful that even if they can't cancel heals the DPS will eventually outpace the healing. That's also a good point about their increased resistance to WP damage; looking forward to trying that fight again!

glad you fing the information usefull, in certain fights like crabking the duelist might not substitute certain items required for the fight but the extra dmg its defenetly handy, 5 duelist with full shaodw gear can take fuelweaber in seconds until he stars using the shield.

Also other thing i forgot to mention before that might be important for doing the fight, the dmg of the duelist now increase if maxwell wears shadow gear(darksword, night armor, and the magicians top hat), the dmg goes as follow:

-No gear: 20 base dmg/ 30 dmg dash attack

-Magicians top hat/dark sword: 30 base dmg/ 45 dmg dash attack

- Night armor: 40 base dmg/ 60 dmg dash attack

-Dark sword/magicians top hat and night armor combined: 50 base dmg/ 75 dmg dash attack

-All three combined: 60 base dmg/ 90 dmg dash attack

Therefore to maximice dmg the insulation for crabking has to be on the head slot to maximice dmg

[Ohan]

You can also bring however many additional bunnymen it takes to cancel the heal with the duelists (unless they hate duelists? ) If u want to do ck without current weatherpain but with minions. I cant imagine it being too many. 

[JazzyGames]

4 hours ago, Malfario said:

Therefore to maximice dmg the insulation for crabking has to be on the head slot to maximice dmg

Awww, why can't the Top Hat have just a little insulation?

[Malfario]

15 minutes ago, JazzyGames said:

Awww, why can't the Top Hat have just a little insulation?

You can do crabking with top hat and built a fireplace or a furnace on the boat. Only thing is that the fight can not occur on summer. However i ve never try this so dont know if it actually works

[JazzyGames]

19 hours ago, Malfario said:

The duelist now have a caped dmg they can take and they will teleport like regular nightmare creatures when hit, a duelist can take 11 hits from a weather pain before dying.

This is honestly the best change I think they've made so far during the rework. Weather pains + duelists now make for an insane combo during this fight. 100% solved the issue I was having with the fight. It's still challenging but absolutely feasible. Thanks, Klei!

[Malfario]

5 hours ago, JazzyGames said:

This is honestly the best change I think they've made so far during the rework. Weather pains + duelists now make for an insane combo during this fight. 100% solved the issue I was having with the fight. It's still challenging but absolutely feasible. Thanks, Klei!

cant wait to see your strat come to live