Winona Refresh Suggestions (From a Winona Main)

[GuiltyGabriel]

I don't post here often, but I really want to share these ideas.

So, as a Winona main I have spent hundreds of hours playing this character. I like her a lot and it's sad that she's used as a switch-and-dump character because once you build her catapults, generators and trusty tape, you can use them with any other character. I believe this can be changed without turning Winona into a selfish character (IE making her the only character that can use contraptions)

The gist of what I'm about to propose is this (consider this a TL;DR) : 

     1) Winona is and should remain a support character. She's not supposed to be a damage powerhouse or OP boss killer. 

     2) Winona should NOT be a selfish character : other characters should be able to use her contraptions, and yet;

     3) Winona should have incentive to play actively, not just swapping to build / craft stuff. 

OK, now to get more specific:

For point #1, I think Winona needs some tweaks to her contraptions. The only realy useful one is her catapult; absolutely no one uses her spotlight because of its tiny light radius and disappointingly small range. My suggestions in this regard are:

     #1A) Buff Winona's spotlight significantly, to the point where it's on par with Wickerbottom's Lux aeterna book (which gives a spawn radius similar to a Star caller staff's and lasts 2 whole days AND gets repaired in the bookshelf). Turning it into another copy of Star caller staff wouldn't make sense seeing as Wickerbottom has that, so I suggest these simple changes to make Winona's spotlight viable in any base (or at least the center of a megabase):

     -Increase its light radius to that of a lantern / miner hat

     -Increase its range to that of a lightning rod

     - Reduce its power consumption : Spending a gem every night for light is too expensive even for late game. One gem should keep it going for multiple nights, but I leave this to the balance team (and ofc to the readers to comment)

     #1B) Winona needs more supporting contraptions. I have a couple of suggestions and I would love to see what ideas you guys have:

     - A resource gathering contraption - Either like Hamlet Wagstaff's thumper (which farms trees) or something that picks plants (the way lureplants are used in reed farms, etc). This would make Winona synergize well with Wickerbottom.

     - Boat propellers - pretty self-explanatory : a boat attachment which grants medium (stackable) speed buff and quick direction change.  

     - Fish zapper - another boat attachment (similar to a Pinch n winch) which, when deployed, shocks nearby fishes which kills them (could work against cookie cutters too, maybe?) pretty unethical, but so is using catapults against doggies for their kidney stones.

 

     2) Self explanatory - all characters should be able to use Winona's contraptions, but not in a way that makes Winona obselete as a main character. This is where point #3 comes in:

 

     #3) To incentivise players to play Winona consistently, I suggest the following mechanic : Generator Maintenance. This mechanic makes it so that after building a generator, a 5-day timer starts, after which it become "Faulty" and require maintenance, which involves clicking on the generator and performing a short animation (just like speaking to plants - it takes two seconds and doesn't cost any resources). ONLY WINONA MAY PERFORM MAINTENANCE ON FAULTY GENERATORS. This will give players a reason to stick to Winona (or even play Winona solo), as ran-down generators would have the following (slight) downsides: 

     - Worse fuel efficiency : faulty generators would have the current fuel duration (as opposed to the buffed duration mentioned in point #1B, such as 3 days in the case of a generator wired to a spotlight)

     - Contraption malfunctions : Winona contraptions wired to a faulty generator would also have suffer slight downgrades:

          *Catapults would attack 50% slower (so still viable for hound defence if Winona is offline, just a bit slower)

          *Spotlights would have their light radius reduced to 50% (smaller than a lantern but still bigger than what it currently is. Maybe the size of a torch's) and range likewise reduced (but still big enough to fit a small base).  

          *Propellers (if added) would move the boat slower (but not worse than a regular sail) and lose the quick direction turning feature

          *Plant collectors (if added) would have their range reduced and pick rates slowed down.

          *Fish zappers (if added) would have a longer cooldown and smaller number of mobs hit per use. 

 

Thank you for reading my suggestions. Feel free to give any criticism or further suggestions on this Topic, I hope Klei devs will take notice of some of these points and make winona something other than a switch-and-dump character. Fingers crossed! 

- Gabriel, a Winona main (1600+ hours on record)

[NoodlemanNed]

I really like pretty much every part of this idea, gives some good incentive to stay as winona while still giving some benefit with switching (unlike a certain clock lady)

Also an idea for one of winona's potential new structures could be some kind of wall that passively restores hp when powered. I think it would be great to be able to pen aggressive mobs without needing to worry about them phasing through statues and similar barriers 

[UltraShadow01]

here are my thoughts as someone who farms quite a bit with Winona item
I agree right now she is totally a switch character.
and some of the points are really good but where I think it falls short is making the upkeep required to operate these farms depend on Winona
if every so often the generators or other structures begin to fail players like me who use the catapult on and off with long stretches of cycles between
will be forced to switch every time I want to do a spider farming session

I think instead of having a debuff due to a lack of winona add a buff due to the presence of a winona, like adding temporary upgrades to improve efficiency and / or capabilities of her contraptions.

other wise new machines could be pretty nice. maybe have some mobile machines like a portable generator and portable lamp that winona can place down for boss fights or for the night than pick up and keep adventuring which like warly would require a winona to deploy and pick up
also making her a good choice for early game (if the recipe for the portable items isn't too expensive)

another cool machine might be a mechanical lure plant that has a more limited inventory and smaller radius but you could access the inventory and it would still consume the items or not... edit: (totally didn't realize that was what the thumper idea was)

as for your spot light ideas I think it would be cool if the spotlight would turn off and stop consuming power when there is light and the generator would go into low energy mode when nothing around it is using power or something like that

I know that I would totally switch to winona for quite a bit if I had these buffs

[Illegalbird]

I like these points and all, but I think it'd be COOLER if winona can make an AC fueled by gems and also would be cool if winona can make global warming happen 

[GuiltyGabriel]

9 minutes ago, UltraShadow01 said:

 

Thanks for the feedback. Keep in mind that the faulty generator's "nerfs" wouldn't turn them useless - you could still farm the spiders even with 50% slower fire rate - that's the slap on the hand for swapping characters. 

[UltraShadow01]

1 minute ago, GuiltyGabriel said:

Thanks for the feedback. Keep in mind that the faulty generator's "nerfs" wouldn't turn them useless - you could still farm the spiders even with 50% slower fire rate - that's the slap on the hand for swapping characters. 

Yeah except you need to load the catapults for them to work, so if I need to do something in a different place the catapults would just tie my hand to them for longer. or I would be simply forced to switch which also takes time and if I need wormwood to farm crops or something than I don't have the luxury of switching

[Capybara007]

yes good suggestions

[Nolasmor]

I like the boat ideas, I always thought the magnets should have been a Winona craft, but the zapper seems really useful too!

[Patatowithevilintention]

Dear lord but I am not a fan of that maintenance mechanic. It sounds like it exists just to waste your time and make having Winona around a chore more than a blessing. Sure, give her new buildings or buff the spotlight but there shouldn't be a reason to have Winona around all the time to get her benefits. I do not understand why her being a "switch" is a negative, not having to keep the character around and still be able to benefit from them is amazing! Like with Warly, how you can spice a bunch of food and switch to someone else if you want. 
IMO Winona is in a great state as a character right now. Low barrier of entry, good base stats and also fun upsides that can be taken advantage of! A great all rounder character for beginner or mid level players. 

[skile]

1 hour ago, UltraShadow01 said:

another cool machine might be a mechanical lure plant that has a more limited inventory and smaller radius but you could access the inventory and it would still consume the items or not... edit: (totally didn't realize that was what the thumper idea was)

 

 YES 

it would be so good for a lot of farms and wood gathering. 

i wanna talk about wood gathering specifically, because picking up all logs is soooo slow. like, you can cut the trees in a minute or two using merms/shadow loggers/werebeaver/bearger, but to collect everything you need to spend a whole eternity. 

but if Winona could make some contraptions which would pick up stuff from the floor? bam, time saved, irl sanity kept. 

[UltraShadow01]

1 hour ago, Patatowithevilintention said:

I do not understand why her being a "switch" is a negative

I think all characters should be at a state where people can play them actively and say they provide value to the group
wes might be the outlier here because its wes... come to your own conclusions

[ChemNPhy]

A very well explained and argumented suggestion, @Guilty_Gabrie.

More gadgets would be fun, for sure, but I particularly like the idea of a maintenance system, only make it based on how long the generator has been generating power and not based on how old the generator is. It could involve some RNG, like after three uses, there's a 10% of getting faulty, then 10% more with every new use. Winona should also be able to perform some prevention maintenance, resetting the faulty chances to zero.

[CoolKris]

Yeah im pretty sure this whould not be a full rework but a tweek.

The idea of maintenance is great, but I'd have a buff to the machine, or you could make an item like inc, this inc is dropped by kittersquids and whould boost any of winonas machines by 10% (Catapults whould have faster shooting speed, spotlight whould be more bright n more)

the inq could be used on other mechanical devices too, but for limited time like 10-30 days.

Winonas machines fuel usige 100%>75%

Wx could use it for attack speed (+ 5-15%)

Ice box spoiling rate -50%>-60%

Ice flingomatic fuel usige 100%>80%

Crafting speed for items +25% (near: science M or alchemy E. presdihatitator, shadow M. Think tank.)

Olso while the inc is used the machines dont become faulty for the duration (10-30 days).

Olso it whould be a good little thing if winona whould have a special interactions with Wx. Like you could tweak Wx to give it upsides. But i whould like winona to have herself some upsides.

Her relationship with Charlie opens up a lot of potential for darkness related upsides. Making her more comfortable for beginners.

Like an upside where, when shes near a dim-dark light, she whould gain sanity (from seeing her sister).

Or a perk only she has. I know she is a support character,  but you should have some thing diffrent from other characters, like a buff aginst all clockworks, a 10% damage buff whould be great. 

 

Id olso add a lot more machines n items speical for winona:

Recycling robo: requres 3 nitre, 3 cut stone and 1 tape.

(Inq: power drain-20%)

Needs power to use, can and will for the low-low price of ½ a gem give back 100% of the crafted original items.

 

 

 

[JustExo]

As a winona main with roughly the same amount of hours on the character, I disagree with some of what you're saying
 

9 hours ago, GuiltyGabriel said:

     1) Winona is and should remain a support character. She's not supposed to be a damage powerhouse or OP boss killer. 

     2) Winona should NOT be a selfish character : other characters should be able to use her contraptions, and yet;

     3) Winona should have incentive to play actively, not just swapping to build / craft stuff. 

There isn't really isn't anything I disagree with in concept in the core points, I think that winona should have more incentive to continue playing her, and I think that straying away from, what I see as the big appeals for playing the character would purely be a bad thing. so there isn't anything I disagree with in that regard. 
 

 

9 hours ago, GuiltyGabriel said:

     #1A) Buff Winona's spotlight significantly, to the point where it's on par with Wickerbottom's Lux aeterna book (which gives a spawn radius similar to a Star caller staff's and lasts 2 whole days AND gets repaired in the bookshelf). Turning it into another copy of Star caller staff wouldn't make sense seeing as Wickerbottom has that, so I suggest these simple changes to make Winona's spotlight viable in any base (or at least the center of a megabase):

     -Increase its light radius to that of a lantern / miner hat

     -Increase its range to that of a lightning rod

     - Reduce its power consumption : Spending a gem every night for light is too expensive even for late game. One gem should keep it going for multiple nights, but I leave this to the balance team (and ofc to the readers to comment)

  

I think that the spotlight is definitely in need of a buff, but the idea that I had was (in addition to making its size bigger because obviously that should be the case) was to give you a boost effect to fighting nightmare creatures in some way, such as just dealing more damage to them when the spotlight is on you, or providing a damage resistance to them when the spotlight is on you, which would at least make the spotlights better for sanity management if not just outright giving you more light. (if implemented, it would be nicec for it to affect the same enemies that the glass cutter has increased durability for ie; fuelweaver, shadow pieces)
 

9 hours ago, GuiltyGabriel said:

     #1B) Winona needs more supporting contraptions. I have a couple of suggestions and I would love to see what ideas you guys have:

     - A resource gathering contraption - Either like Hamlet Wagstaff's thumper (which farms trees) or something that picks plants (the way lureplants are used in reed farms, etc). This would make Winona synergize well with Wickerbottom.

     - Boat propellers - pretty self-explanatory : a boat attachment which grants medium (stackable) speed buff and quick direction change.  

     - Fish zapper - another boat attachment (similar to a Pinch n winch) which, when deployed, shocks nearby fishes which kills them (could work against cookie cutters too, maybe?) pretty unethical, but so is using catapults against doggies for their kidney stones.

I definitely think winona needs more contraptions, having just catapults (because spotlights aren't real) is definitely an issue to the "engineering inventor" type of character.
I disagree with resource gathering contraptions being a machine though, that isn't an aspect of the game that I really see as in need of a machine dedicated to it.
The boat propellers are similar to an idea I had awhile ago with rudders (but klei had different ideas for such a machine) but I would have hoped that the speed would be faster, but harder to control than just a steering wheel and sail
A fish zapper seems a bit redundant now that things like the ocean trawler exists, and to me at least, ocean fishing isn't really a great source of food, and is primarily used for catching certain types of fish. I don't disagree with it being implemented, because winona having more is always welcomed, but I personally wouldn't see much value out of it so I have a hard time saying enthusiastically that it should be implemented.
 

 

9 hours ago, GuiltyGabriel said:

     2) Self explanatory - all characters should be able to use Winona's contraptions, but not in a way that makes Winona obselete as a main character. This is where point #3 comes in:

I completely agree, winona should benefit more from her own structures, but I disagree with a lot of what comes up in point 3
 

 

9 hours ago, GuiltyGabriel said:

  #3) To incentivise players to play Winona consistently, I suggest the following mechanic : Generator Maintenance. This mechanic makes it so that after building a generator, a 5-day timer starts, after which it become "Faulty" and require maintenance, which involves clicking on the generator and performing a short animation (just like speaking to plants - it takes two seconds and doesn't cost any resources). ONLY WINONA MAY PERFORM MAINTENANCE ON FAULTY GENERATORS. This will give players a reason to stick to Winona (or even play Winona solo), as ran-down generators would have the following (slight) downsides: 

     - Worse fuel efficiency : faulty generators would have the current fuel duration (as opposed to the buffed duration mentioned in point #1B, such as 3 days in the case of a generator wired to a spotlight)

     - Contraption malfunctions : Winona contraptions wired to a faulty generator would also have suffer slight downgrades:

          *Catapults would attack 50% slower (so still viable for hound defence if Winona is offline, just a bit slower)

          *Spotlights would have their light radius reduced to 50% (smaller than a lantern but still bigger than what it currently is. Maybe the size of a torch's) and range likewise reduced (but still big enough to fit a small base).  

          *Propellers (if added) would move the boat slower (but not worse than a regular sail) and lose the quick direction turning feature

          *Plant collectors (if added) would have their range reduced and pick rates slowed down.

          *Fish zappers (if added) would have a longer cooldown and smaller number of mobs hit per use. 

I absolutely hate the idea of faulty generators. To me, winona's appeal is to set things up and forget about them until I need them, so having to go out of my way to fix something that another character broke would be counter to the appeal I see of the character, that being to make every other character's life SIGNIFICANTLY easier. I also don't like the idea of the game punishing you for not playing the character as oppose to incentivizing you to play the character by giving her more benefits that are inherent to her. 

I think what should happen with incentivizing winona to continue being played is to increase things like the firing speed of catapults, increasing their damage (Not their range since some winona farms are pretty finnicky in regards to how far catapults are put in relation to enemies/targets)
Spotlights having an increased size when winona is in their proximity, or even just when winona herself fuels them would be really useful and would help bump up the characters desirability imo, and if the boosts that I proposed earlier were implemented, just upping the numbers wouldn't hurt either.

-If winona got propellers, it would make sense for her to use such a piece of engineering to a better degree than other characters, so making it easier for her to steer would help the character out.
-If plant collectors were introduced, it would be really nice if winona just increased the pick speed of the machine
-And fish zappers if introduced, would just get a boost to damage and range.

What I think should be added to the character is: 
-Winona herself should be able to tape armor/weapons once in order to increase their durability, similar to how UM handles tape
-Damage and attack speed of catapults are increased when she's nearby
-Spotlight provides a boost against nightmare creatures, and increases the numbers even more when winona is present
-Winona can harvest things such as saplings, grass, berries etc. when above a hunger threshold
-Winona should get sprinklers that can do things like water plants, and prevent fires (would function as an alternative to a flingomatic) and to boost her staying power, Winona and wormwood should be able to do things like feed fertilizer into the sprinklers to help the plants grow-this automates the process of watering plants without stepping on the toes of the (primarily) farming oriented character

Overall, I agree with the problems you pointed out, I just disagree with the execution in a lot of areas. 

[probably shady]

1 hour ago, JustExo said:

What I think should be added to the character is: 
-Damage and attack speed of catapults are increased when she's nearby
-Spotlight provides a boost against nightmare creatures, and increases the numbers even more when winona is present

I really like these two Winona changes!

Maybe, instead of having generators become faulty over time, Winona can "boost" generators for a few days to improve her other structures.