suggestion Applied Silviculture should grow Marble Trees

[chaosmonkey]

Marble trees stand out as a bit of a head scratcher as to why Applied Silviculture does not affect them. The first time I needed a bunch of marble for statues, I naturally reached for this book. To my great surprise, I found that it had no effect. After all, everything else we can plant in the ground is growable with either Horticulture Abridged or Applied Silviculture. 

The Wicker rework is a great opportunity to fix this inconsistency, and I hope this will be considered. Most of the uses for Marble are decorative, and this would be a welcome QoL improvement.

[maxwell_winters]

I think Klei doesn't want players to hoard on a huge amount of marble judging by how marble trees work. I don't know the exact reason but I suspect it's to prevent tanking everything with marble suits  

[Parusoid]

Only if we can also affect lureplants with the book

[Ohan]

I always figured the reason applied horticulture and then silviculture didnt work on marble shrubs was because theyre entirely mineral in nature and not biological/vegetative. 

Stone fruit bushes are still very clearly biological in nature even though their fruit is encrusted in a mineral. 

But marble shrubs are entirely made out of marble and likely “grow” similarly to crystals instead of living plants. 

If she had a book on mineralogy or petrology i imagine that would be able to grow marble shrubs. 

Edit: She actually even says this about the marble bean herself : 

Silviculture is the same as arboriculture. 

[oregu]

Just now, Ohan said:

I always figured the reason applied horticulture and then silviculture didnt work on marble shrubs was because theyre entirely mineral in nature and not biological/vegetative. 

Stone fruit bushes are still very clearly biological in nature even though their fruit is encrusted in a mineral. 

But marble shrubs are entirely made out of marble and likely “grow” similarly to crystals instead of living plants. 

If she had a book on mineralogy or petrology i imagine that would be able to grow marble shrubs. 

Edit: She actually even says this about the marble bean herself : 

Silviculture is the same as arboriculture. 

an idea for another effect of the book would be petrification. i'd be happy with a book that makes petrified tree, those take forever.

[_Ellat_]

For some reason klei doesn't want marble to be easily accessable and farmable. When marble beans were added they would grow just as quick as a normal tree. It was nerfed not long after.

[chaosmonkey]

The quote about the Marble Beans seems more like a remark on the absurdity of such a thing as a "marble bean" because in the real world you can't just plant rocks. In the constant though the beans clearly grow as evident from, well, the marble trees that sprout. If we were to only go off the "real world" knowledge that Wicker brings with her, things like Applied Silviculture shouldn't be possible. After all, what real world knowledge let's you magically grow normal trees? All this to say, I don't think the quote about marble beans is incompatible with magic books accelerating their growth.

There's some speculation in this thread as to "what Klei wants with marble accessibility". The decisions around the current marble growth mechanics were made years ago when DST was a very different game. Hopefully Klei will look at this issue and consider things in the current state of the game and whether this change makes sense in 2022.

 

[Evelo]

9 hours ago, oregu said:

an idea for another effect of the book would be petrification. i'd be happy with a book that makes petrified tree, those take forever.

Now this, I like.

[Mike23Ua]

9 hours ago, _Ellat_ said:

For some reason klei doesn't want marble to be easily accessable and farmable. When marble beans were added they would grow just as quick as a normal tree. It was nerfed not long after.

It’s probably got A LOT to do with reducing the crafting cost of Marble Armor from 12 Cutstone down to 6… that’s literally two sets of armor for the price of what was originally one.

Wicker is good- but she shouldn’t suddenly be a God.

[PetulantPansy]

more power to wicker which is a good thing. but you could farm an insane amount of marble

 

plant marble beans -> bear bear spawns -> have him clean house -> replant and use book for tier 3 -> repeat

 

not a bad walter buff if people still wanted to buff him (although lots of people have problems with his lore too)

[ChemNPhy]

19 hours ago, Ohan said:

I always figured the reason applied horticulture and then silviculture didnt work on marble shrubs was because theyre entirely mineral in nature and not biological/vegetative. 

Stone fruit bushes are still very clearly biological in nature even though their fruit is encrusted in a mineral. 

But marble shrubs are entirely made out of marble and likely “grow” similarly to crystals instead of living plants. 

(...)

 

The fact that Wormwood's sanity is not affected by planting/mining/digging marble trees/beans confirms they are not vegetal.

[_Ellat_]

16 hours ago, Mike23Ua said:

It’s probably got A LOT to do with reducing the crafting cost of Marble Armor from 12 Cutstone down to 6… that’s literally two sets of armor for the price of what was originally one.

Wicker is good- but she shouldn’t suddenly be a God.

Night armor is better and easier to obtain AND doesn't slow you down. Nerfing marble trees was stupid. No one uses marble armor anyway + add marble walls already.

[oregu]

Just now, _Ellat_ said:

Night armor is better and easier to obtain AND doesn't slow you down. Nerfing marble trees was stupid. No one uses marble armor anyway + add marble walls already.

really? nobody uses marble armor? also the reason i dont rly mind this is because it's rng dependent, if u can mine garuanteed statue setpieces really early giving you almost a stack of marble and can doubling marble each time every 18 days or so. marble is generally easy to farm. i think they just had the impression that marble was this rare resource when they nerfed it but it really isn't if you're able to take it all for yourself. it's wonderful for early and late game and reliable enough to be used in speedruns. criminally underutilized. i dont really get why people have the bad impression of it still, even if it costed 12 marble. if you take every hit 95% reduction probably less than what youre gonna take from kiting in a mid ping server.

[_Ellat_]

3 minutes ago, oregu said:

really? nobody uses marble armor? also the reason i dont rly mind this is because it's rng dependent, if u can mine garuanteed statue setpieces really early giving you almost a stack of marble and can doubling marble each time every 18 days or so. marble is generally easy to farm. i think they just had the impression that marble was this rare resource when they nerfed it but it really isn't if you're able to take it all for yourself. it's wonderful for early and late game and reliable enough to be used in speedruns. criminally underutilized. i dont really get why people have the bad impression of it still, even if it costed 12 marble. if you take every hit 95% reduction probably less than what youre gonna take from kiting in a mid ping server.

Because taking every hit with 95% damage reduction is worse than 80% damage reduction and an ability to dodge.

[oregu]

Just now, _Ellat_ said:

Because taking every hit with 95% damage reduction is worse than 80% damage reduction and an ability to dodge.

If you're going for efficiency, consider the extra swings you get to take while tanking. An ability to dodge also matters less if your main concern isn't healing. Healing is not an issue if you're able to kill BQ multiple times (or know how to stockpile easy healing foods). Of course it's situational, some bosses you obviously shouldn't tank, but it really can help some fights if you can. I'd also rather have a consistent strat that works no matter the ping when it comes to bosses/general enemies.

[Mysterious box]

4 hours ago, oregu said:

really? nobody uses marble armor? also the reason i dont rly mind this is because it's rng dependent, if u can mine garuanteed statue setpieces really early giving you almost a stack of marble and can doubling marble each time every 18 days or so. marble is generally easy to farm. i think they just had the impression that marble was this rare resource when they nerfed it but it really isn't if you're able to take it all for yourself. it's wonderful for early and late game and reliable enough to be used in speedruns. criminally underutilized. i dont really get why people have the bad impression of it still, even if it costed 12 marble. if you take every hit 95% reduction probably less than what youre gonna take from kiting in a mid ping server.

Mostly because the time it takes to regrow makes it too scarce in a multiplayer unless noone cares to use it and if you try to make a marble farm you run the risk of others taking it tbh they really should lower the amount of time it takes to grow marble if they want characters with non character specific advantages with it to care about it.

[Cheggf]

18 hours ago, _Ellat_ said:

Night armor is better and easier to obtain AND doesn't slow you down. Nerfing marble trees was stupid. No one uses marble armor anyway + add marble walls already.

Night armor is harder to obtain and more expensive and drains a ton of sanity (which can spawn shadows). Plenty of people use marble armor, its night armor that I never see anyone use. I don't like how you guys are always so quick to say things suck. Both armors are great for different reasons. 

[Mysterious box]

6 hours ago, Cheggf said:

Night armor is harder to obtain and more expensive and drains a ton of sanity (which can spawn shadows). Plenty of people use marble armor, its night armor that I never see anyone use. I don't like how you guys are always so quick to say things suck. Both armors are great for different reasons. 

I'd argue night armor is cheaper overall sure getting manipulator going takes longer than initially using marble but if you want marble to be a sustainable armor you have to invest resource you have to constantly invest some of your marble into trees while also using extra resources to harvest them on the other hand night armor just requires reeds and fuel which are far easier to amass. The downside of night armor being that it drives you crazy is a big downside but it also leads to more fuel to make more armor vs marble making you slower increasing the odds of failed kiting. From my experience night armor is far more popular than marble armor but I feel that's more to do with Wanda's perk removing it's downsides but even then body armor isn't very popular as people often go armorless until they get football helms even I'm guilty of this the only time I personally use body armor is playing Walter and purely because I like Walter's hats regardless of their effects though as of Woby's bucking change I'm sure I'll use marble armor alot more.

[oregu]

Just now, Mysterious box said:

thread

"Constantly invest marble into trees" which is perfectly acceptable if you're smart with your marble usage. If you're not considering max/wurt which are essential for any group which make harvesting it a lot cheaper, it only costs gold/twigs which are generally easy to amass if you know how. There's also cannonballs which I haven't experimented a lot with but that's also a good resource sink for those materials, I reckon. Fighting shadow creatures takes time, and farming reeds becoming easier than marble is only possible until you have Wicker to mass farm reeds or after you go to moon quay, which might be quite a bit later. You're also accounting for the sanity cost of wearing the armor, which means you have to make sure your sanity is topped during the fight or micromanage armor usage(?). Having nightmares go at you in the middle of fighting a boss is not a good idea to me. Sounds like a luxury maybe only high dps chars could have. Marble has about 40% more durability, which doesn't sound like a lot but you're able to buffer with head armor. more with the durability. If you're not using night armor to tank, I don't get the point outside Wanda cause you don't die immediately after taking a couple hits with football helm. Kiting would make the fight longer, though, if you were going for such a play style, making the armor worse because sanity drain. I'd recommend using bone armor instead once you're able to kill AFW if you want to fight like that. It would cost a lot less healing and time overall. I think I do see it being viable but only once you mistakingly amass too much nmf than you know what to do with mid-late game.

[Cheggf]

2 hours ago, Mysterious box said:

I'd argue night armor is cheaper overall

No way. You have to go super out of your way to get reeds which is comparable to how much effort you need to do marble bush stuff (way more if you're someone like Maxwell) leaving nmf as the other ingredient compared to ropes. Nmf is used for swords, refueling magis, and many other things. It's far harder to mass than the automatic grass farm that's easy to set up as any character, requiring you to do something like pick Wickerbottom and go to the ruins and make a more complicated farm or beat AFW.  Even assuming you need that much grass, cause simply transplanting some lets you get a lot for very little time. Even if the shadow is already spawned fighting it is a lot slower than just picking some grass. 

Plus you don't even have to do the marble bush stuff. The marble you start with and get from earthquakes will last quite some time. 

[Mysterious box]

1 minute ago, Cheggf said:

No way. You have to go super out of your way to get reeds which is comparable to how much effort you need to do marble bush stuff (way more if you're someone like Maxwell)

Debatable you could also just live near the swamp and even then just going to collect reeds isn't bad I do it regularly even though it's usually not going to night armor.

 

7 minutes ago, Cheggf said:

Even if the shadow is already spawned fighting it is a lot slower than just picking some grass.

Ideally you should only use night armor if you have the means to handle your sanity easily.

2 minutes ago, Cheggf said:

Nmf is used for swords, refueling magis, and many other things.

Not everyone uses dark swords but I do agree it'd be foolish to use both at once but I feel like people are probabaly going to move on to thulecite crowns rather than either of them if they're reaching the point they're using the magi at least either way they're probably not using the body slot for armor at that point.

1 hour ago, oregu said:

Constantly invest marble into trees" which is perfectly acceptable if you're smart with your marble usage. If you're not considering max/wurt which are essential for any group which make harvesting it a lot cheaper, it only costs gold/twigs which are generally easy to amass if you know how.

While I fully understand don't starve together is a multiplayer game based around teamwork I will always say your strategy should never rely on a character your not playing yourself it can be assisted but relying on them is setting yourself up for failure. Setting up marble farm itself isn't super resource intensify but it does take a fair amount of time which doesn't translate well to the duration of some servers mostly pubs so I get why it's unpopular even if I feel it's very effective.

 

1 hour ago, oregu said:

If you're not using night armor to tank, I don't get the point outside Wanda cause you don't die immediately after taking a couple hits with football helm. Kiting would make the fight longer, though, if you were going for such a play style, making the armor worse because sanity drain. I'd recommend using bone armor instead once you're able to kill AFW if you want to fight like that. It would cost a lot less healing and time overall. I think I do see it being viable but only once you mistakingly amass too much nmf than you know what to do with mid-late game.

This is more or less the reason marble and shadow are unpopular football helms are cheap, don't cost much resources, and keeps your body slot free for more beneficial things without any downsides.

[GelatinousCube]

On 7/25/2022 at 7:24 AM, chaosmonkey said:

After all, everything else we can plant in the ground is growable with either Horticulture Abridged or Applied Silviculture. 

I wanted to grow my large grove of Monkeytails last night to farm a bunch of excess reeds in anticipation for the Wicker rework release (I am on console) and Silviculture (I tried Horticulture too) did absolutely nothing.

Has this been changed in recent patches that obviously haven't hit console yet?

[Antynomity]

On 7/26/2022 at 1:04 AM, Mike23Ua said:

It’s probably got A LOT to do with reducing the crafting cost of Marble Armor from 12 Cutstone down to 6… that’s literally two sets of armor for the price of what was originally one.

Wicker is good- but she shouldn’t suddenly be a God.

Funny how you say that Wortox is op then say this, the only reason why marble shrubs are nerfed this way is because of

ancient forumites saying marble is op.