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Lunar Grimoire is cheaper than you may think


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Yes, yes, another post about that cursed book, I know.
This one is for everyone thinking Lunar Grimoire is too expensive to make or too overpowered, because I'll try to show you how you can eat the Gems an have them too, well, in a sense...

The idea of an Iridescent Gem being used to create Lunar Grimoire has born many posts about how expensive the recipe is or how it can drag down the whole process of gameplay progression, or even grief the game for everyone. Starting with the last point, griefers have already much better ways of making your gameplay miserable, even stealing the Gems an logging out because they can. Responsible Wickerbottom(s) using them for Lunar Grimoire(s) won't stop you, in fact they won't even cost you that much.

I understood the design of this recipe just recently, even though it was before our eyes this whole time, and I finally understood why it is literal 200 IQ. It's the Balance with the capital B!

So what is the main reason people give for this book to cost more than 2 Moon Rocks? Because having Full Moon every night is something you need to work really hard for, it should require some effort, I think we all agree about that. Obtaining Lunar Grimoire includes a visit to the Moon Island (or easier - Hermit Island found with first Message in the Bottle) and finding Ancient Archives (both of those places have to be found anyway, if you want to "complete the game"). I also read most (if not all) posts regarding Lunar Grimoire and great majority considers this process a task adequate to the Book's potential. Some even say Distilled Knowledge is a better option, no, it's not. Iridescent Gem can be used MUCH earlier while giving a hard limit of Lunar Grimoires on the server, which is great balance to a powerful book.

But "borrowing" Iridescent Gems form Ancient Archives, even if used to make more of them, will cost a lot of resources and wasted Star/Moon Caller's Staves.
No, it won't, also drop the quotation marks, those Gems are up for grabs, take them, make your precious Lunar Grimoire, but treat it well between readings and store it in a well protected Bookcase. The game progresses as usual (with the exception of some power over the Moon Cycle) up to the point of activating the Ancient Archives:
You have your Moon Caller's Staff in one hand (hopefully it had some children in its short life), Deconstruction Staff in the other. You don't want to, but close your eyes an break poor Staff into pieces just to obtain it's heart - the Iridescent Gem necessary to power up the Archives. 'Oh yes, one's missing' you think...

Spoiler

...taking your well-kept Lunar Grimoire, that served you well for many past days, from your spacious pants back pocket. 'Time to set apart old friend" you whisper and kiss its cover.

You don't cry, because you know you will reunite after a while and, who knows, maybe your Bookcase will be richer with at least one more Lunar Grimoire.

The Gem is back on it's place, the only cost of borrowing it to Seize The Moon is one use of Deconstruction Staff, you already have in hand.

To sum it up:

  • Lunar Grimoire takes effort to get, because its ingredients are scattered across the world
  • Lunar Grimoire is valuable, there are only two easy obtainable and both (if made) should be well protected
  • Lunar Grimoire has a hard limit, so there will be nights without Full Moon no matter what, until 3rd Iridescent Gem is obtained
  • Lunar Grimoire won't slow down game progression and won't grief if Wickerbottom is responsible enough (and lore-wise she is the most intelligent and knowledgeable amongst all Survivors, so we shouldn't worry about her).

And so I can honestly say this recipe is in great balance, even if I myself thought otherwise at first. Now go and borrow those Gems, but don't let them perish, there are only two of those in the world!

Great job developers, I appreciate your design!

Spoiler

1176770638_LunarWickerbottomAscension.thumb.png.47c857ffdaf6b4d425744378c0e2007a.png
It's not the first time I use this picture and it sure is not the last!

TL;DR Check the 1st spoiler, but you miss the whole aventure...

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Just wanna make sure I have this right. Is this the strat you're suggesting?

1. Pick gems to make lunar grimoire
2. Use lunar grimoire to trigger moon caller event
3. Deconstruct lunar grimoire & moon caller staff, use opal gems to power archives
4. Do your business in the archives
5. Pick gems back and use for lunar grimoires

If so, yeah. That price is perfectly reasonable, pretty cheap even.

(Disregard this paragraph if I interpreted your strategy wrong) The issue is this leaves the archives unpowered (by 3 gems, no less) for anyone who wants to collect blueprints from it at a later time. I personally wouldn't mind it because I usually play solo, but this seems like a problem in a multiplayer game.

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1 hour ago, Arcwell said:

(Disregard this paragraph if I interpreted your strategy wrong) The issue is this leaves the archives unpowered (by 3 gems, no less) for anyone who wants to collect blueprints from it at a later time. I personally wouldn't mind it because I usually play solo, but this seems like a problem in a multiplayer game.

You can leave a sign at the archives saying "If you want to power the archives, feel free to go to my bookcase at (insert your base location here) and deconstruct my Lunar Grimoires". Someone else could have messed up and destroyed the books one way or another, but at that point it's mostly this someone's fault.

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Just now, Pruinae said:

You can leave a sign at the archives saying "If you want to power the archives, feel free to go to my bookcase at (insert your base location here) and deconstruct my Lunar Grimoires". Someone else could have messed up and destroyed the books one way or another, but at that point it's mostly this someone's fault.

Fair enough. This all sounds pretty convoluted but it's workable.

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2 hours ago, Arcwell said:

Just wanna make sure I have this right. Is this the strat you're suggesting?

1. Pick gems to make lunar grimoire
2. Use lunar grimoire to trigger moon caller event
3. Deconstruct lunar grimoire & moon caller staff, use opal gems to power archives
4. Do your business in the archives
5. Pick gems back and use for lunar grimoires

More or less yes, I consider one Book enough to meet the needs, it can grant you Full Moons several days in a row, but if you'd like to use it every day it would actually waste all saved time by low Sanity problems. Plus really Winter and Spring are mostly the seasons you should use this book for its best potential, skipping 1-2 minutes nights for 50 sanity seems quite unreasonable.
So I would suggest:

  1. Pick one of the Iridescent Gems from the Archives (it should be more than enough for some boss fights and Pig Skin farming)
  2. Use Lunar Grimoire as you and probably your fellow Survivors wish to its best potential, but take good care of it, it's very valuable (this also includes triggering Moon Stone Event if you missed it)
  3. When you decide to deconstruct your Moon Caller's Staff to power up the Archives do it with your Lunar Grimoire as well
  4. Try to get everyone who may want blueprints with you and do your business in the Archives
  5. Once you've done, you're free to take at least one Iridescent Gem (even for good), because one Book should meet the needs anyway and that one Gem you've made

This way, if you're satisfied with one Book, Archives are back as they were at the very beginning (2 Iridescent Gems), if you play alone or everyone is fine with you taking two or even all the gems, take them, but you'll probably won't need them that much.

I as well mostly play alone or with a small group where we do most "questline tasks" together, but otherwise I would highly recommend to take only one gem, it should be enough and won't make you look selfish when someone wants to get some Distilled Knowledge and finds out someone took all the Gems. Besides, blueprints from the Archives are used to make Collected Dust (quite useless tbh), Astral Detector (which I guess someone would use to locate all altar pieces if they bothered to power up the Archives) and Terrafirma Tamper (which they probably placed somewhere). I don't know, most people wouldn't probably wring their hands if they missed those blueprints, but even if they want them so much they can ask Wickerbottom to use her Books just to get their blueprints and give back Gems. They waste 2 uses of the Deconstruction Staff in the worst scenario, but save up on Star/Moon Caller's Staff. Seems like not the worst trade after all (plus you can get free Full Moons on demand for extra profit).

The point of the post really was to not be too afraid of using those Gems if you take care of Books you use them for, because they're not wasted an can be quite easily retrieved.

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I didn't really think about deconstructing the books instead of using them to make more other gems, you're right, looking at it that way seems pretty acceptable. (But I still find it strangely cheap, but I've never been much against it so I don't see much of a problem with staying as it is... Uncanny recipe)

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Yeah it's cheap in single player and super expensive in multiplayer. It's why I don't like it. Either you join day 1 and rush to those gems or you risk someone else grabbing them then deciding they don't want to play any more. The hard part of the recipe is sailing to the island for moth wings so I don't see why the easy archives which you'll probably find by going in sinkholes anyways even needs to be a requirement. The gem's removal would improve multiplayer without really affecting single player. 

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1 hour ago, Cheggf said:

Yeah it's cheap in single player and super expensive in multiplayer. It's why I don't like it.

I know it's off topic but unironically this is 100% how I feel about Walter's higher tier ammo types.

2 hours ago, Cheggf said:

Yeah it's cheap in single player and super expensive in multiplayer. It's why I don't like it. Either you join day 1 and rush to those gems or you risk someone else grabbing them then deciding they don't want to play any more. The hard part of the recipe is sailing to the island for moth wings so I don't see why the easy archives which you'll probably find by going in sinkholes anyways even needs to be a requirement. The gem's removal would improve multiplayer without really affecting single player. 

That being said I do feel like finding the archives is more or less a similar level of difficulty with the introduction of grass boats. 

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In a solo or with responsible friends this will work.

Sadly I play in a public server. In that setting, Worst case scenario, if I don’t grab the gems myself by day 5 I never see the gems again. Best case scenario, If I don’t grab the gems by day 10 I never see the gems again.

Just thinking I now am forced to race to get those as fast as possible every single game just takes away a lot of the fun of the game to me.

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27 minutes ago, ShadowDuelist said:

In a solo or with responsible friends this will work.

Sadly I play in a public server. In that setting, Worst case scenario, if I don’t grab the gems myself by day 5 I never see the gems again. Best case scenario, If I don’t grab the gems by day 10 I never see the gems again.

Just thinking I now am forced to race to get those as fast as possible every single game just takes away a lot of the fun of the game to me.

While this is unfortunate it isn't exclusively a Wickerbottom problem.

Edit: This is not me saying your saying that.

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37 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

While this is unfortunate it isn't exclusively a Wickerbottom problem.

Edit: This is not me saying your saying that.

But it is a recipe design problem. Either those stones shouldn't be removable, or the book's recipe should change. Otherwise in many situations it will all resort to having to make the lunar event 3 times. I talk to other public server communities and they were all sort of hard accepting the same thing "its gonna be 3 times from now on".

TBH at this point I wouldn't mind if they removed this book completely.

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3 minutes ago, ShadowDuelist said:

But it is a recipe design problem. Either those stones shouldn't be removable, or the book's recipe should change. Otherwise in many situations it will all resort to having to make the lunar event 3 times. I talk to other public server communities and they were all sort of hard accepting the same thing "its gonna be 3 times from now on".

I mean even if the recipe changes that's still a danger making the stones not removable is a solution but community seems split on that decision. I'm not against the recipe changing to a moon caller staff even if I'd personally love it being distilled knowledge however.

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2 hours ago, ShadowDuelist said:

In a solo or with responsible friends this will work.

Sadly I play in a public server. In that setting, Worst case scenario, if I don’t grab the gems myself by day 5 I never see the gems again. Best case scenario, If I don’t grab the gems by day 10 I never see the gems again.

Just thinking I now am forced to race to get those as fast as possible every single game just takes away a lot of the fun of the game to me.

I rarely play on public servers, so correct me if I'm wrong. Isn't this an issue for a lot of stuff? Someone might dig up all the graves with accessible early game red gems that Wanda needs for healing. Or pick up all the marble on the surface that Wanda, Wolfgang and Walter need. 

Are these servers usually organized, or is everyone on their own with individual bases? Can you still read other Wicker's books? 

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6 minutes ago, maxwell_winters said:

I rarely play on public servers (…)

Are these servers usually organized, or is everyone on their own with individual bases? Can you still read other Wicker's books? 

You cannot be serious.

You rarely play on pubs, dont know if wickers can share books, dont know how people play on pubs yet youve been extremely vocal from the start of the beta, spamming every thread with your concerns about griefers with grimoire and rain rituals. Why does that actually not surprise me.

13 minutes ago, maxwell_winters said:

Isn't this an issue for a lot of stuff? Someone might dig up all the graves with accessible early game red gems that Wanda needs for healing. Or pick up all the marble on the surface that Wanda, Wolfgang and Walter need.

Opals are magnitudes more costly to replace than red gems or marble. 

Some recommended reading: 

https://dontstarve.fandom.com/wiki/Iridescent_Gem

https://dontstarve.fandom.com/wiki/Moon_Caller's_Staff

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15 minutes ago, maxwell_winters said:

I rarely play on public servers, so correct me if I'm wrong. Isn't this an issue for a lot of stuff? Someone might dig up all the graves with accessible early game red gems that Wanda needs for healing. Or pick up all the marble on the surface that Wanda, Wolfgang and Walter need. 

Are these servers usually organized, or is everyone on their own with individual bases? Can you still read other Wicker's books? 

there are miltiple ways to geting red gems and getting marble from earthquakes isn't uncommon once a wickerbottom gets the 2 gems and leaves and not joins on the next game sessions because work, school, computer stops working or something else then you will need to do the event 3 times instead of once with no benefit  

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14 minutes ago, Ohan said:

You cannot be serious.

You rarely play on pubs, dont know if wickers can share books, dont know how people play on pubs yet youve been extremely vocal from the start of the beta, spamming every thread with your concerns about griefers with grimoire and rain rituals. Why does that actually not surprise me.

Please keep it civil.

You can disagree with someone all you want but attacking them personally kills the entire conversation. We went through this on another thread and it did not end well.

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19 minutes ago, Ohan said:

You cannot be serious.

You rarely play on pubs, dont know if wickers can share books, dont know how people play on pubs yet youve been extremely vocal from the start of the beta, spamming every thread with your concerns about griefers with grimoire and rain rituals. Why does that actually not surprise me.

Listen, I regret ever bringing griefing into the discussion. I'm new on this forum, so I thought it's an important aspect to discuss. But it turned out griefing isn't as important for you as I expected. My main points about Grimoire were concerning game design and I still stand by them.

Anyway, I probably should take a life-long vacation from foruming because I don't want to be reminded how I used invalid arguments once as a response to anything I post. 

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The thing about wicker is that she has always been a feedback loop.

once you craft one thing you can potentially  Make infinite of it
 sivilculture is your paper churner
on tentacles will give you your spots back.
birds and sleepy with meat/eggs to nightmare fuel from  over reading.

i think why people are arguing Is just how finite the iridescent gem is.
yes you could theoretically  convert the first 2 into 6 and exponentially grow.  And honestly most people would probably do that.


But the thing is this honestly reminds me of the old argument of pig houses 
The argument of hammering vs not hammering wild pig houses.
yes you could potentially farm more pig houses if they are in one area.  But then that makes that world not as good for newer players As they don't have the forest pigs to help them on the starting journey.
I believe that finite resources in the world should stay  where they are despite how well intentioned the player is.

being a player that has experienced Pig extinction and bee extinction in servers its not fun to play.

use the moon event to bring pigs back used tumbles to bring back bees. (yes the server farmed tumbles for bees.) That .1% chance.

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21 minutes ago, Arcwell said:

You can disagree with someone all you want but attacking them personally kills the entire conversation. We went through this on another thread and it did not end well.

This isnt about agreeing or disagreeing. When im not sufficiently informed on a subject i keep to myself until that is remedied. Im sorry for expecting the same from the other people involved in the conversation. Apparently being informed on what you’re giving feedback on is not important. 

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On 7/24/2022 at 11:54 AM, Ohan said:

Opals are magnitudes more costly to replace than red gems or marble. 

I feel that's kind of debatable if all gems are swiped early game the only way I known of to get more reliably are sunken chests which are very big time sinks for rng rewards. As for marble if it's swiped without the intention of renewing them you have to rely on earthquakes. It's unlikely one person will get all sources usually but it's a real pain if everyone's looking to use them.

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On 7/24/2022 at 10:27 AM, ShadowDuelist said:

In a solo or with responsible friends this will work.

Sadly I play in a public server. In that setting, Worst case scenario, if I don’t grab the gems myself by day 5 I never see the gems again. Best case scenario, If I don’t grab the gems by day 10 I never see the gems again.

Just thinking I now am forced to race to get those as fast as possible every single game just takes away a lot of the fun of the game to me.

But if there's another Wickerbottom out there doing all the necessary work, why would you pick another Wickerbottom? It's redundant, for me this is much worse than getting there in the archives and not finding the gems

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On 7/24/2022 at 6:54 PM, Ohan said:

Opals are magnitudes more costly to replace than red gems or marble.

 

16 hours ago, Mysterious box said:

As for marble if it's swiped without the intention of renewing them you have to rely on earthquakes

I'd just like to add that another source of marble is touchstones. Each time player resurrects it gives 2 marble per touchstone, and one probably will find 2 surface touchstones sooner or later, which is 4 marble to start marble farms from per person (up to 8 marble to start from, potentially). Good thing is that touchstones are indestructable, so every joining person potentially can get that marble no matter how late they join/need this marble (it won't be enough for suits for long time though).

As for iridiscent gem, as long as world has at least 1 pseudoscience station it takes 1-2 Dragonfly/2 Twins kills to reliably replace 1 gem (closer to 1 kill on average for consequtive opals because one already has construction amulet and deconstruction staff).

Since I've never seen people hammer completed station, whether it's hard to replace opals depends on quality of connection and presence of allies. Connection quality, communication results with other players (for Twins route mostly) and worldgen defines difference in how long it will take to replace opals in comparison to marble.

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4 hours ago, Castiliano said:

But if there's another Wickerbottom out there doing all the necessary work, why would you pick another Wickerbottom? It's redundant, for me this is much worse than getting there in the archives and not finding the gems

It doesn’t matter what I am picking, what I mean is that you have to get the gems for responsible use of them. Basically protect them from the horde of wickerbottoms that will try to get them just “because best book ever omg” and then just disconnect with it or break the book.

And yes, despite this was possible to grief upon before, nobody really cared about those gems. For some reason people are overrating the moon book.

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