Wortox Needs MORE!!!

[_Ellat_]

1 minute ago, Mysterious box said:

How about crockpots then?

Crockpots exist

[Mysterious box]

1 minute ago, _Ellat_ said:

Crockpots exist

My point is there are a ton of low effort easy ways to heal in the early game I'm not trying to say Wortox's healing is bad but his access to slightly faster healing alternatives isn't op in the slightest.

[_Ellat_]

Just now, Mysterious box said:

My point is there are a ton of low effort easy ways to heal in the early game I'm not trying to say Wortox is bad but his access to slightly faster healing alternatives isn't op in the slightest.

You mean outright dismissing health is not a big deal?

[mkemal23]

4 minutes ago, PetulantPansy said:

you'll get knicked up here and there... (hounds/poison birchnutter/lag/tentacle). it's useful. period. 

None of the examples you said are a big enough threat to pick Wortox over Wolfgang. For an experienced player, healing shouldn't be a problem. And anybody that struggles with survival, shouldn't pick Wortox in first place.

 

[Mysterious box]

Just now, _Ellat_ said:

You mean outright dismissing health is not a big deal?

We talking those fast healing methods that are on par with Wortox or Wortox's healing here because you can't really say that about one but not the other.

[_Ellat_]

1 minute ago, mkemal23 said:

None of the examples you said are a big enough threat to pick Wortox over Wolfgang. For an experienced player, healing shouldn't be a problem. And anybody that struggles with survival, shouldn't pick Wortox in first place.

 

No experienced player picks wortox because they struggle with health they pick wortox to make the game a cakewalk.

[Mysterious box]

1 minute ago, _Ellat_ said:

No experienced player picks wortox because they struggle with health they pick wortox to make the game a cakewalk.

Pretty sure it's experienced players who are the main people who talk about Wortox not being a very good pick outside of the early game.

[mkemal23]

1 minute ago, _Ellat_ said:

No experienced player picks wortox because they struggle with health they pick wortox to make the game a cakewalk.

Aside from his healing there is literally one power he has and it's his teleports. And again, if you are experienced enough to not use any healing, why are you not playing Wanda at that point?

[_Ellat_]

I do

2 minutes ago, mkemal23 said:

Aside from his healing there is literally one power he has and it's his teleports. And again, if you are experienced enough to not use any healing, why are you not playing Wanda at that point?

I guess it's time to give wortox a go and finally settle if he's op or nah

[Gashzer]

24 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

I don't see the issue here most of the cast doesn't start with all their character specific abilities ready to be used on spawn.

Exactly, wortox does, making him special in this way.  Hes like an upgraded wilson as in you don't have any character driven goals i.e don't need to worry about rushing an alarming clock (wanda) or finding the swamp (wurt) or rush spider queen for nurse spiders (webber) or farming (warly).. atleast i feel like i gravitate to certain goals or directions for certain characters. Dunno if it is the same for you.

Wortox is free to not grind crockpots for healin or food, literally has a good mix of Qol exploring perks and quickly accessible healing for boss fights. No need for bases at all. Perfect pub character all in all.

11 minutes ago, mkemal23 said:

Aside from his healing there is literally one power he has and it's his teleports. And again, if you are experienced enough to not use any healing, why are you not playing Wanda at that point?

Takes 2 and a half hours minimum from day1 to access wandas teleports... i don't have all day to play dst lol sometimes i wanna do a quick autumn boss rush then leave the pub server... the time i save during the boss fight using wandas alarming clock i lose in actually going out of my way to craft it.

[lakhnish]

9 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

12 minutes ago, _Ellat_ said:

No experienced player picks wortox because they struggle with health they pick wortox to make the game a cakewalk.

Pretty sure it's experienced players who are the main people who talk about Wortox not being a very good pick outside of the early game.

That is why I made this post!

[Copyafriend]

4 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

Exactly, wortox does, making him special in this way.  Hes like an upgraded wilson as in you don't have any character driven goals i.e don't need to worry about rushing an alarming clock (wanda) or finding the swamp (wurt) or rush spider queen for nurse spiders (webber) or farming (warly).. atleast i feel like i gravitate to certain goals or directions for certain characters. Dunno if it is the same for you.

Wortox is free to not grind crockpots for healin or food, literally has a good mix of Qol exploring perks and quickly accessible healing for boss fights. No need for bases at all. Perfect pub character all in all.

Takes 2 and a half hours minimum from day1 to access wandas teleports... i don't have all day to play dst lol sometimes a wanna do a quick autumn boss rush then leave the pub server... the time i save during the boss fight using wandas alarming clock i lose in actually going out of my way to craft it.

Wortox’s abilities being available from the start isnt all that great of an advantage. No one has ever done a boss rush with wortox and actually competed with wolfgang or wanda. He becomes comparatively weaker as time goes on as well. He plateaus HARD. Healing is the second easiest thing to achieve in dst, thats why he can get it for free if you chase butterflies around. The butterflies on their own can give u 20 if you cook them into a muffin. A birchnut can turn into 30 and 2 pieces of monster meat is 40. The only thing easier than health is food. Which is okay because most food restores health. Saying that its op to let him teleport across the map and heal is rediculous, because its only “op” after doing something that would let you achiebe the same amount of healing with a little intelligent resource usage. Killing lots of spiders? Glands monster meat and silk. Any of which can heal for 20 or more per item monster meat = pierogis, 20 per, gland is healing salve, 20 per, silk is like 149 per if you make a tent. butterfly wings is 20 per with a muffin. Wortox’s healing is fairly efficient. Problem is he now has effectively a 2x need for resources if hes using anything other than souls. His food and health CAN be solved by chasing butterflies. But so can any characters. But once you get past the first year, the inconvenience of a 2x resource drain constantly actually hits you. Its HORRIBLE. I have enough food to feed a literal army from my farms, and i need to cook and prepare twice as much to feed myself or continue to waste souls eating and healing myself with them. Past the first year the souls become steadily less useful. Wortox just doesnt match up to other characters once you have a surplus of resources. First year is the only time he shines. But if you’re good you can have enough resources to easily match a wortox. Getting 20 spare meat to have 400 healing is super easy, and carrots are cheap. Then you kill the enemy faster with a combat character, or prep faster with a resource gathering character. All wortox does is save on healing atm, and healing is super easy. A long distance teleport would be a lifesaver for such a weak character. And its barely even a buff, thats just how far he can teleport normally but instead pf spamming the teleport you just click the map.

[PetulantPansy]

39 minutes ago, mkemal23 said:

None of the examples you said are a big enough threat to pick Wortox over Wolfgang. For an experienced player, healing shouldn't be a problem. And anybody that struggles with survival, shouldn't pick Wortox in first place.

 

only you turned this into a wortox vs wolfgang discussion. each character is good at their own thing. wortox is fine for people who are too lazy to put on armor while fighting small mobs and also don't feel like cooking stuff at a crockpot (and just eat souls instead). Wortox is great for survival with the only condition being that you are comfortable fighting sanity critters. 

When you do a "let's compare survivor A vs survivor B", it depends completely on what metrics/attributes we're evaluating. Resource gathering efficiency? survival? experience? 

[Gashzer]

7 minutes ago, Copyafriend said:

Wortox’s abilities being available from the start isnt all that great of an advantage. No one has ever done a boss rush with wortox and actually competed with wolfgang or wanda. He becomes comparatively weaker as time goes on as well. He plateaus HARD. Healing is the second easiest thing to achieve in dst, thats why he can get it for free if you chase butterflies around. The butterflies on their own can give u 20 if you cook them into a muffin. A birchnut can turn into 30 and 2 pieces of monster meat is 40. The only thing easier than health is food. Which is okay because most food restores health. Saying that its op to let him teleport across the map and heal is rediculous, because its only “op” after doing something that would let you achiebe the same amount of healing with a little intelligent resource usage. Killing lots of spiders? Glands monster meat and silk. Any of which can heal for 20 or more per item monster meat = pierogis, 20 per, gland is healing salve, 20 per, silk is like 149 per if you make a tent. butterfly wings is 20 per with a muffin. Wortox’s healing is fairly efficient. Problem is he now has effectively a 2x need for resources if hes using anything other than souls. His food and health CAN be solved by chasing butterflies. But so can any characters. But once you get past the first year, the inconvenience of a 2x resource drain constantly actually hits you. Its HORRIBLE. I have enough food to feed a literal army from my farms, and i need to cook and prepare twice as much to feed myself or continue to waste souls eating and healing myself with them. Past the first year the souls become steadily less useful. Wortox just doesnt match up to other characters once you have a surplus of resources. First year is the only time he shines. But if you’re good you can have enough resources to easily match a wortox. Getting 20 spare meat to have 400 healing is super easy, and carrots are cheap. Then you kill the enemy faster with a combat character, or prep faster with a resource gathering character. All wortox does is save on healing atm, and healing is super easy. A long distance teleport would be a lifesaver for such a weak character. And its barely even a buff, thats just how far he can teleport normally but instead pf spamming the teleport you just click the map.

With the twerks to wortox, you should never eat anything other than souls now. Don't waste time on stone fruit bushes or crockpots or farming or crafting salves. Wortox is free from these mortal needs now. All he needs to do is to continue to push forward and murder things... as you normally do.

Wortox needs 2 things in his base now, alchemy engine and shadow manipulator, once he has prototyped the weapons/armour/clothes/thermal stone he needs, wortox players literally have no reason to have any sort of base. 

That level of nomadic survival is the appeal of wortox... screw the megabases, screw the crockpots and farming, wortox doesn't need or benefit from any of that nonsense hehe

[Pumking7]

Hmmm, if I were to personally improve Wortox I would make him:

• Gain multiple souls from larger enemies, it would incentivize him to take down more larger enemies to help provide for him and his team. (I find it weird how a small treeguard gives like 9+ souls, but a varg/ewecus giving 1 makes it feel a bit unfair)
• Be able to heal beefalo that players are riding for 4x the health of one soul (due to beefalo health), it would allow for synergy with those who ride a beefalo.
• Allow Wortox to see health of other players, for although his healing affecting those with full health was fixed, he still can't tell when others are in danger and will mainly still use souls to heal himself/not overload.

They should also make it so his "world soul hop" gains that 20% map distance back and uses less souls to teleport around the map. I believe wortox's "world soul hop" is still a high time sync even for full map travel, for even if he saves walking time, you are going to still have to grind a large number of souls to use it feasibly.

[Copyafriend]

2 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

With the twerks to wortox, you should never eat anything other than souls now. Don't waste time on stone fruit bushes or crockpots or farming or crafting salves. Wortox is free from these mortal needs now. All he needs to do is to continue to push forward and murder things... as you normally do.

Wortox needs 2 things in his base now, alchemy engine and shadow manipulator, once he has prototyped the weapons/armour/clothes/thermal stone he needs, wortox players literally have no reason to have any sort of base. 

That level of nomadic survival is the appeal of wortox... screw the megabases, screw the crockpots and farming, wortox doesn't need or benefit from any of that nonsense hehe

Which is pretty damn cool, im ngl. But my point is that his downside IS huge and VERY relevant. Farming spiders for souls is cool, but you can only stockpile 20/3 6 days of food. If you dont heal or teleport at all. You cant bundle wrap more, you cant ever get better than what you have. There is no improving as a wortox. Its basically like playing as webber and only eating monster meat and only healing with the glands using the healing salve it works yeah. Works pretty well if you do it right too. But its simultaneously not really all that effective compared to long term solutions. A pig village farm is like 30 meat at once for little effort. Stacks if you want to do it right. Honey farms could feed a whole server with no effort. Healing too. Even regular farming can produce 18 potatoes after a few days per farming tile. Lureplants too can feed and heal rediculous amounts. Wortox is semi locked to his souls. And his souls are strong, but they’re not as strong as a mid to late game farm

[mkemal23]

29 minutes ago, PetulantPansy said:

only you turned this into a wortox vs wolfgang discussion. each character is good at their own thing.

I wasn't trying to turn the discussion in to a Wolfgang vs Wortox one. I was just trying to say that Wortox in early, mid or late game always gets overshadowed by other characters because his upsides aren't really useful.

29 minutes ago, PetulantPansy said:

wortox is fine for people who are too lazy to put on armor while fighting small mobs and also don't feel like cooking stuff at a crockpot (and just eat souls instead). Wortox is great for survival with the only condition being that you are comfortable fighting sanity critters. 

The examples you said shows how boring and useless he is. Fighting small mobs without armor? Not using crock pots? Is this Why people calling him op?

Wortox deserves better than this. he has a lot of potential.

29 minutes ago, PetulantPansy said:

When you do a "let's compare survivor A vs survivor B", it depends completely on what metrics/attributes we're evaluating. Resource gathering efficiency? survival? experience? 

I'm sorry, but i think i didn't understand what you are saying.
Doesn't all of this is kind of a solution for saving time? Faster gathering, Better fighting, etc. And if look at Wortox, his perks fails to save enough time to call him op.
 

[PetulantPansy]

19 minutes ago, mkemal23 said:

I wasn't trying to turn the discussion in to a Wolfgang vs Wortox one. I was just trying to say that Wortox in early, mid or late game always gets overshadowed by other characters because his upsides aren't really useful.

The examples you said shows how boring and useless he is. Fighting small mobs without armor? Not using crock pots? Is this Why people calling him op?

Wortox deserves better than this. he has a lot of potential.

I'm sorry, but i think i didn't understand what you are saying.
Doesn't all of this is kind of a solution for saving time? Faster gathering, Better fighting, etc. And if look at Wortox, his perks fails to save enough time to call him op.
 

You save plenty of time not having to make healing food in boss fights in the early game. Big time saver in team situations; still a time saver for solo runs. The average DST player isn't a perfect no-hit player. A little lag can make you take hits from a spider, etc. Having free healing is always useful. 

 

Doing map hops to accomplish what you need/want to do is a definite time saver. I never said wortox was OP. Just arguing against those who say that he is weak and useless. That is blatantly wrong. 

I do agree that his perks get outclassed by other characters (or just in general) in the late game - but that's not a problem unique to wortox. 

[Bearger Enjoyer]

2 hours ago, _Ellat_ said:

Not a new player got 3,5k hours in dst. It's not about the healing itself its about the ease of access to it.

On top of that wortox can carry a huge amount of health on him just by catching butterflies/bees.

One soul on a hosted server without mods can grant a heal of a total 78 hp.

Yes, yes, very powerful tool for babysitting people who never wear armor and take more damage than butterfly wings can overturn. ( Ignoring that Wanda is the better babysitter now )
You're playing with people who know that armor exists? Too bad, you're fat wilson with an useless slower-than-walking teleport now. Don't even bring up jumping across gaps, that's too small to matter.

Do you know what else can heal so big on day 1? Blue caps. Kill bosses, rush ruins, there's more than you can care about. If you need a ton of heals also dig green caps, it's not like shovels are expensive(Wilson with shovel OP?!). And oh, of course them not growing back doesn't matter: There's way too many for a person on solo and bee queen gets swallowed whole in a multiplayer setting by people holding F and losing like one whole football helmet each, maybe less. Oh, and for continuity's sake in multiplayer...

Now let's look at our superior healing options. Wickerbottom and Winona can set up farms to kill Bee Queen on cooldown, getting between 2.880hp to 3.000hp perfectly portable, nonspoiling hp on top of bundlewrap blueprints for everyone. Even the most severe idiot can operate them. Not to mention those two have a ton of other perks. This alone is so ridiculously overkill in solo that you end up tanking freezing/overheating out of boredom. In multiplayer it is more than sufficient, but that's assuming 5-6 people don't have even one farmer among them.

Speaking of farming. Did you know that a clever, optimal wormwood can farm up heals equivalent to a couple hundred souls with the side of all your hunger problems for the next 1k days in less than half a spring? No need for that level of cleverness, either, every server has a Wormwood spamming potato/tomato these days. Even if there isn't one, everything else I'm listing is more than enough.

Before I forget... Bat bat is hilarious. Build two bunny hutches next to an open sinkhole unfortunately close to your base and you're supplied unspoiling 510 hp tools by just picking up the wings that drop AND unpaid pest control (and a lot of guano if you're into that for some reason). That's 25.5 souls. The only actual cost is a purple gem but those become useless fast if you aren't Wanda in a group.

With healing being this much of a joke, extremely easy sources being hidden in plain sight (blue caps/bwings) or being comically easy to amass hundreds of stacks of souls' worth(jellybeans/bat bat), Wortox as he is is not relevant no matter how you look at it. The other sources aren't tied to a character, are more portable than the Wortox friend you cannot really fit in your pocket and just way more than enough. (Unless you're really, REALLY all about the no-armor life, then go nuts I guess.)

if you have ping issues then yeah he's ping friendly but even then wigfrid is much better at that. 

[Mike23Ua]

3 hours ago, lakhnish said:

I seriously don't understand where all this "wortox op" is coming from.

Is it from players that struggle with getting health?

I've done a boss rush followed by a playthrough as Wortox and I don't understand it at all. 

All the souls were to me was that instead of eating the very easy to get Perogies for healing, it was just use souls for healing and to eat either small foods, Meaty Stew, or dried Kelp for food.

Like I said.. Wortox is in my top most played characters list (I even did the whole Klei Halloween Display thing as him..) And Wortox is a very strong character, you can not compare carrying 20 non-perishable souls + carrying other living mobs with intent to kill beyond the souls cap that can Heal not just yourself but everyone standing nearby while granting you Sanity to eating a Pierogi that only heals yourself and not an Entire group, Also unless bundle wrapped (which requires killing the Bee Queen) Foods are literally on a Perish timer- In all the time I’ve played DST I’ve Never killed BQ.. not in Solo or In a Group.. Never- Which means my Pierogis? They’re on a literal Spoil Timer… I also can’t Teleport around the map after eating them..

Wortox only needs to do 1 thing.. and all of his abilities are unlocked and used using 1 item in his inventory, A Wendy player could go Idle in a flower field with Abby on Riled up mode and Wortox would be set for life..

If souls lost effect and perished over time requiring you to Use them or Lose them then perhaps they would be on that same “Spoil Timer” that Foods and Hambats are for people who don’t have Bundle Wrap recipes unlocked.

AHEM: However- Now that World events like Year of the X, and WintersFeast are toggleable on/off at any time: I’d like to remind everyone who can’t fight Bee Queen that the Gift Wrap from WintersFeast Event IS Bundling Wraps without needing to kill this boss for the Blueprint.

And last but certainly not least: Depending on what else Klei has in store to add to the game could explain why his Soul Hops can not reach far enough (example: If they add an Island out in the oceans beyond his soul hop reach or an Area down in caves that you can’t get to by just hopping across the screen.)

[Bearger Enjoyer]

3 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

Like I said.. Wortox is in my top most played characters list (I even did the whole Klei Halloween Display thing as him..) And Wortox is a very strong character, you can not compare carrying 20 non-perishable souls + carrying other living mobs with intent to kill beyond the souls cap that can Heal not just yourself but everyone standing nearby while granting you Sanity to eating a Pierogi that only heals yourself and not an Entire group, Also unless bundle wrapped (which requires killing the Bee Queen) Foods are literally on a Perish timer- In all the time I’ve played DST I’ve Never killed BQ.. not in Solo or In a Group.. Never- Which means my Pierogis? They’re on a literal Spoil Timer… I also can’t Teleport around the map after eating them..

Wortox only needs to do 1 thing.. and all of his abilities are unlocked and used using 1 item in his inventory, A Wendy player could go Idle in a flower field with Abby on Riled up mode and Wortox would be set for life..

If souls lost effect and perished over time requiring you to Use them or Lose them then perhaps they would be on that same “Spoil Timer” that Foods and Hambats are for people who don’t have Bundle Wrap recipes unlocked.

AHEM: However- Now that World events like Year of the X, and WintersFeast are toggleable on/off at any time: I’d like to remind everyone who can’t fight Bee Queen that the Gift Wrap from WintersFeast Event IS Bundling Wraps without needing to kill this boss for the Blueprint.

And last but certainly not least: Depending on what else Klei has in store to add to the game could explain why his Soul Hops can not reach far enough (example: If they add an Island out in the oceans beyond his soul hop reach or an Area down in caves that you can’t get to by just hopping across the screen.)

Yeah, that explains it. Never killed bee queen. Even then bunny hutch next to open sinkhole doubles as pest control and bat bats worth 25.5 souls each.

In that case, Wicker/Winona is straight up an upgrade from Wortox for you. As I said, 2.880k to 3000k health per kill max. And it's not even the only thing they have to offer, aside from the finally improved soul hops.

I look forward to having an actual perk as Wortox for once.

[Bearger Enjoyer]

26 minutes ago, PetulantPansy said:

You save plenty of time not having to make healing food in boss fights in the early game. Big time saver in team situations; still a time saver for solo runs. The average DST player isn't a perfect no-hit player. A little lag can make you take hits from a spider, etc. Having free healing is always useful. 

 

Doing map hops to accomplish what you need/want to do is a definite time saver. I never said wortox was OP. Just arguing against those who say that he is weak and useless. That is blatantly wrong. 

I do agree that his perks get outclassed by other characters (or just in general) in the late game - but that's not a problem unique to wortox. 

you can avoid healing food for rushes by making a shovel and digging blue caps. or you could straight up make do with bwings alone. more often than not they're overkill. it isn't rocket science.

[Hyuyu]

Wortox got the "op" treatment because people don't realize how easy food is to get, and a crockpot fixes you for heals starting day 3 or so if you're competent.

Sure wortox is a big safety card for newbies. But any experienced wortox player or any player will tell you that they don't take more than 50hp during a boss fight unless they did a massive ****-up by forgetting armor and such. 

That's where we want real appeal in playing wortox. We're "so good" that the healing is boiled down to using 2 souls after a boss fight which would be easily replaced by any healing food. And that's where his perks ends. Food isn't rare, you don't need to eat souls.

The big teleport is finally something that makes him unique in his past self of "mildly effective healing dispenser".

So yes, in the eyes of someone who eats damage for breakfast he's op, but for anyone who can kite, he's just a different way to eat food with a lazy explorer inbuilt.

we don't ask for a nerf, we don't ask for buffs, we want him to be unique and fun, and that big hop is a massive good step in the right direction so don't make them remove it for gods sake.

[Pruinae]

How about giving Wortox a way to raise his soul cap? Don't know how it would work, but the currently 20 gets annoying to micromanage.

Also, revert the nerf to the map teleport distance. I'd even say to buff it, making teleporting from one corner to the map to the other cost 20 souls (as in, from a boat to another in a corner diagonally opposite). Allowing him to teleport to boats would be nice for the sake of completeness (maybe would need an ocuvigil? Still, it would be cool).

It would be strong? Yes. I still don't see people that play Wanda choosing him over her, simply because the Alarming Clock exists, she also can teleport directly to where she wants in the caves, while he has to walk/teleport to a cave entrance first.

[pyroisshy]

Personally, I feel like basically the entire cast is waaaaaay too powerful at the moment. Remember when Wilson was the "Balanced" character? No downsides, and a slightly useful upside. In single player DS, Wilson was actually decently powerful compared to the rest of the cast (even though the cast had a few OP outliers)

 Klei's design philosophy has shifted since then, and now the average characters balance is some extremely powerful and impactful upsides, and then downsides that are extremely easy to deal with. 

Wortox absolutely does not need more hunger from souls and sanity from dropping souls. Those are changes that only serve to negate his downside and make him less interesting to play.

Long distance teleporting could be kept in to make him more fun, but in its current form where you can save a day's worth of travel by killing a hive or two of killer bees I wouldn't add it. It should take the souls of rare powerful monsters like bosses in order to use the teleport, which would add to his mid and endgame playstyles and make teleporting require more strategy.

If people think Wortox needs a buff because he's "not interesting" how the heck is Klei supposed to rework Wilson? Any efforts to make him more complex or to give him big perks would alter his simple design significantly, but because everyone else been given nothing but buffs for years, the appeal of "no downsides" just isn't good enough anymore.