Wormwood is a much better challenge character than Wes

[Yuuko]

7 hours ago, endyfacts110 said:

When I say challenge I mean a character that has a major flaw but if you adapt and accept that flaw you get some reward.Wes is not a challenge character (in my definition) he is hot doo doo and has minor benefits. The entire reason I think Wes is a poorly designed character is that his traits that make him “challenging” really just make menial tasks slower and much more of a nuisance than usual.On the flip side wormwoods changes the dst loop quite a bit due to lack of easy healing so you do things that you would normally not do as any other character and you are awarded for your hardship.Wes just makes the game more tedious,Wormwood changes how you play,think,and handle various situations.Once again I do thank you for reading this and engaging with my comment

Nah - Challenge characters don't have to have any sort of reward.  The point of doing challenges is exactly that, the challenge.  Sometimes there are style rewards / bragging rights, occasionally there is challenge mode tech, but being a challenge character is a lot different then being something like a glass cannon.  A glass cannon dies easily, which is challenging, but you get tons of damage - You don't play this "for the challenge," you play this "for the damage," and take the weakness of frailty as part of the character.  A challenge character is going to be low tier entirely.

What you're thinking about is high skill cap character, which is a character that takes mastery to play but rewards you for your mastery such as Walter, Wanda, and Warly.

If you're playing DST: Boss Rush and pick Wormwood I can see that being a challenge.  He has perks but they don't help him boss rush.  If you're just playing DST with a group and letting other people tackle combat with / for you then no, Wormwood isn't a challenge at all.

While I don't agree that Wes is well designed right now, and definitely agree he is tedious - Wes still has challenge character perks.  He attracts more aggro, more negative things like lightning, has penalty insulation, lower damage and lower stats.  Most of his kit is definitely a challenge character set  up.  I think the decreased work efficiency and small stomach make him more annoying and tedious but he's more a challenge character than Wormwood for simple DST play.

[Flip Face]

Don't worry, April 1st is coming.

This text was translated by Google, read at your own risk.

We're all bored with Wes, and we never knew what his specialty was other than being a challenge character before his rework, but Klei chose Balloonomancy. (With the new crafting menu maybe he gets more interesting balloons?).

I don't want to be a pessimist but there are so many players vying for Wes, although "Challenger" before his rework there was plenty of room for people to imagine what he could be.

More challenging, more helpful to the team, and more fun.

Is it possible that Klei pleases everyone?

Even though I say I don't want a difficult character, but more fun, I can only suggest things that aren't useful or that no one will like.

It's not like I want him to be any easier, but I also don't want to entertain other players while I'm down, I wish I could do nice things with Wes.

I want to better interact with the world through balloons.

I want balloons to be as essential or to be present in your mechanics, without taking away the weight and responsibility and care of dealing with health, hunger and sanity.

Like Wanda needs time, Wortox of souls like it or not, Wolfgang of his strength (debatable), Woodie with his curse at inopportune moments and so on.

Not mentioning Wormwood makes me seem off topic...

Do you know why I like Wes? And even in this situation I keep playing with him?

Spoiler

In single player he is great and his low damage is an advantage. (I just wish he could hold the balloons there too...).

But in Together Looking at the other characters it seems so unfair, I'm tired of lying to myself that he's fun.

But I keep playing him because at the moment, I prefer Wes to any other character.

Personally, I hate any early advantage that can be achieved at the end of the game.

I can do so many things and say that at the end of the game I surpassed a character who was made to do this role better than Wes.

I also don't like privileges that barely get used to the player. I don't want to miss a skill I had when I switched characters.

Even though with the skill of another character you can create a style of play so unique that it gives the impression that you are playing a completely different game.

That's why I don't like the other characters, basically.

Don't mention Wes' speed balloon, that's a double-edged sword. I mostly use it when I'm bored or not in the mood to play.
 
Balloons are a minute distraction, there are more important things than playing with them on the first day. But they are also not interesting at the end of the game.

Thanks for reading, I must have gotten lost at some point, I rewrote this so many times.

[ShadowDuelist]

I always thought there should be something to Wes, even if it in a weird way.

Considering he's "luck" themed I always thought that having a Wes around would do better to RNG loot. Y'know, bring a little of extra joy to himself and the team inbetween all his miserable existence.
It could also make him wanted to have around at some fights, like a lucky charm mostly. 

[Cannoli]

6 hours ago, Shosuko said:

Nah - Challenge characters don't have to have any sort of reward.  The point of doing challenges is exactly that, the challenge.  Sometimes there are style rewards / bragging rights, occasionally there is challenge mode tech, but being a challenge character is a lot different then being something like a glass cannon.  A glass cannon dies easily, which is challenging, but you get tons of damage - You don't play this "for the challenge," you play this "for the damage," and take the weakness of frailty as part of the character.  A challenge character is going to be low tier entirely.

What you're thinking about is high skill cap character, which is a character that takes mastery to play but rewards you for your mastery such as Walter, Wanda, and Warly.

If you're playing DST: Boss Rush and pick Wormwood I can see that being a challenge.  He has perks but they don't help him boss rush.  If you're just playing DST with a group and letting other people tackle combat with / for you then no, Wormwood isn't a challenge at all.

While I don't agree that Wes is well designed right now, and definitely agree he is tedious - Wes still has challenge character perks.  He attracts more aggro, more negative things like lightning, has penalty insulation, lower damage and lower stats.  Most of his kit is definitely a challenge character set  up.  I think the decreased work efficiency and small stomach make him more annoying and tedious but he's more a challenge character than Wormwood for simple DST play.

Nah - A challenge without a reward is not a challenge.

[jan Mele]

28 minutes ago, Cannoli said:

Nah - A challenge without a reward is not a challenge.

If answering seriously, overcoming a challenge can be a reward in of itself.

[Cannoli]

5 minutes ago, jan Mele said:

If answering seriously, overcoming a challenge can be a reward in of itself.

Step on sh1t is not a challenge, is just step on sh1t.

A challenge without reward is not a challenge. Simple like that

[Oontzie]

I think it's hard to really concept a "challenge" character for DST. For most things that have a challenge mode (NG+) you're usually starting off the same, things are just harder or more complex around you, or with other games that do have characters that start off weaker, they tend to have either a stronger or more flexible end game/skill cap. Wes just feel more like a chore than a challenge, but what changes can you make for him that would stick thematically?

I believe Cannoli has a point. What is the point in the challenge?

Some ideas could be:

-Wes doesn't benifit from anything, unless made as balloons. They have this to an extent, but it could be more stuff like balloon seeds for special foods

-Wes gets bad luck after breaking a mirror in his short. Maybe his luck gets better after surviving 7 years (or seasons?)

Or maybe something simple as you get a cool balloon crown to show off in pubs after beating the boss or surviving after awhile.

[Notecja]

Challenge is not to be rewarded, but to do something hard. I mean game industry just made us used to "get reward" after doing something quite silly, but challange can be as stupid things as fighting with fire staff deerclops and finishing him barehand. Or doing roads to every biome (which sounds super boring, guess only reward you get are those roads). Or play only kiting-no-armour. Usually supposed reward is own satisfaction, not necessary having good time... Actually doing challenge can be just horrible, with no rewards, with no satisfaction and no one to notice and say "good job".

Since everyone is a different person and had different approach to things they do in game, that means everybody can be a bit, more or less right. To one person something will be challenge and will be fun, to other just boring task without reason to do it.
Back to Wes and Womwood: IMHO both are challenging. But one of them is harder for long run and is going to stay that way, and other after some set-up is going to have good time in Constant.

[Cannoli]

13 minutes ago, Notecja said:

Challenge is not to be rewarded, but to do something hard. I mean game industry just made us used to "get reward" after doing something quite silly, but challange can be as stupid things as fighting with fire staff deerclops and finishing him barehand. Or doing roads to every biome (which sounds super boring, guess only reward you get are those roads). Or play only kiting-no-armour. Usually supposed reward is own satisfaction, not necessary having good time... Actually doing challenge can be just horrible, with no rewards, with no satisfaction and no one to notice and say "good job".

Since everyone is a different person and had different approach to things they do in game, that means everybody can be a bit, more or less right. To one person something will be challenge and will be fun, to other just boring task without reason to do it.
Back to Wes and Womwood: IMHO both are challenging. But one of them is harder for long run and is going to stay that way, and other after some set-up is going to have good time in Constant.

No. Challenge is not just "make things harder".

Challenge is challenge, implies a reward.

Incredible how poor is the knowledge about simples concepts, not just in games, for life.

[Notecja]

2 minutes ago, Cannoli said:

No. Challenge is not just "make things harder".

Challenge is challenge, implies a reward.

Incredible how poor is the knowledge about simples concepts, not just in games, for life.

Nah, it doesn't.
Literally is just how game industry made us used to, they decided people won't do a challenge is there is no reward, so most game added something. Remember DST is a challenging (well, unless you visit wiki) game with no reward.

[Cannoli]

5 hours ago, Notecja said:

Nah, it doesn't.
Literally is just how game industry made us used to, they decided people won't do a challenge is there is no reward, so most game added something. Remember DST is a challenging (well, unless you visit wiki) game with no reward.

Who are talking about "game industry"? What limited vision of world.

DST have a reward. EVERY CHALLENGE HAVE A REWARD.

Unfortunately you don't know what is a challenge, and what is a reward!

A REWARD don't need be a medal, dude, or money.

Well, wherever.

[Notecja]

3 minutes ago, Cannoli said:

Who are talking about "game industry"? What limited vision of world.

DST have a reward. EVERY CHALLENGE HAVE A REWARD.

Unfortunately you don't know what is a challenge, and what is a reward!

A REWARD don't need be a medal, dude, or money.

Well, wherever. The vision of young kids is just too limited and like ArubaBeefalo said: education these days is terrible.

What reward you get from DST?

[jan Mele]

3 hours ago, jan Mele said:

If answering seriously, overcoming a challenge can be a reward in of itself.

Or the process, for that matter

[Cannoli]

4 hours ago, Notecja said:

What reward you get from DST?

Nevermind.

I give up this discussion.

Cgrts, bye.

[Flip Face]

5 hours ago, Notecja said:

What reward you get from DST?

Spoiler

I don't want to be the King of discord, but I literally bought Darkest Dungeon and skin packs with the very money I made selling skins in the game.

 

[ADM]

@Cannoli would be sweet if you could stop necessary get everything so personal with people, take useless sides and blame on others. These forums doesn't need (or at least would be in the best interest of everyone if it wasn't !) this grumpy kindergarten atmosphere you bring with yourself every time someone you don't like dare have an opinion.

You don't get anything done doing this but pollute what could be healthy debates and discussions so please consider taking on you a bit or use the ignore member feature if there's just no way you forgive someone to not play exactly like you, that's what you reflect of yourself so far.

[Notecja]

5 minutes ago, Cursed Name said:

  Reveal hidden contents

I don't want to be the King of discord, but I literally bought Darkest Dungeon and skin packs with the very money I made selling skins in the game.

 

That's fine as long you are happy with that ; ) I was also thinking about something more abstract, like there could be a game, where challenge is to get rainbow ... manure. Sort of rare item, but totally useless. Some people will be happy to grind it, just to have it, but some people expecting reward would be disappointed. Yet it still is a challenge.

[Mike23Ua]

Back in my Day- a “Challenge” was to prove yourself as the best, just go play any of the 4 original THPS games, where once you were tasked with a “challenge” level it put you against other famous skaters- sure the winner got a nice shiny gold medal or whatever.. or stood one step higher on a pedestal then lesser performing competitors but ultimately the “Reward” was simply just in proving to yourself & to others that you are the best.

You don’t have to win an Oppressor MKII in GTA Online for winning a Race, simply just coming in first place was your reward.

And when it comes to DST “Challenge” is largely based on player preference.

To Me Wes isn’t anymore challenging to play as then Wendy: But that’s also probably because I know a good bit about the game, how to manage hunger, health, sanity, kiting most mobs so they never land a hit on me Etc..

Wormwood used to be incredibly challenging for me when his only means to heal used to be healing tab items, Wes can eat butterflies for both food & hp.. but Wormwood Did not have this advantage, UNTIL Klei reworked him and now even the massive amounts of loose rot laying around everywhere will help to heal Wormwood.

So then where does the “challenge” come in? Do I disable butterflies so that when I play as Wes I can’t rely on them to heal should I mess up and take some HP damage?

And if I do disable butterflies as Wes does that then make Wormwood less challenging because I can’t disable rot, Manure, etc?

like I said “Challenge” is largely based on player preference.

And because of peoples playstyles and playing preferences you could see people who find Wurt most challenging, while to them Wes/Wormwood would be Easy Mode.

[SinancoTheBest]

2 hours ago, Notecja said:

What reward you get from DST?

The pleasure you derive from gaming is the reward. To go more theoretical with it, why we play games, or rather what motivates us to play video games can be explained with the Self-Determination Theory, where video games are stated to be one effective way people fulfill their basic needs of Competence, Autonomy and Relatedness. While all games offer a different balance of these channels of emotional nourishment I think DST in particular offers all three in a quite balanced manner.

Competence mostly fulfills the needs of the competitive types who seek to play as "efficient" as possible but nevertheless DST offers many challenges to overcome and by it's core it's a survival game with many bosses and tough situations to pass and get bragging rights from.

Autonomy is mostly offered through the open world and sandbox nature of the game where the players are free to plan their course, do base building or fulfill any role that they want, making their own decisions and playing the game at their own pace.

Relatedness is most prominently the Together part of DST where you get to meet and play with friends and other players all around the world but more broadly it refers to the community aspects where you get to relate to people, even in these very forums, over a shared love and interest about the game.

Overall the ultimate reward of doing anything, as Aristotle says, is Happiness and DST in particular is a highly stimulating game that fulfils all three major needs that humans desire, ending up as a highly pleasurable experience. Then again you're justified to call all those intrinsic gains a worthless time waster and that DST has no tangible rewards unless you are getting a price of monetary value in a community contest, somehow making profits in the community marketplace or using DST to make content in platforms where you get compansated monetarily such as Youtube or Twitch.

 

***** Sorry if that was a totally unrelated with that semantic discussion about what challenge and reward means, just wanted to remind myself of the theoretical model of why do people like to play video games.

[hhh2]

yeah i agree

[Cannoli]

4 hours ago, ADM said:

@Cannoli would be sweet if you could stop necessary get everything so personal with people, take useless sides and blame on others. These forums doesn't need (or at least would be in the best interest of everyone if it wasn't !) this grumpy kindergarten atmosphere you bring with yourself every time someone you don't like dare have an opinion.

You don't get anything done doing this but pollute what could be healthy debates and discussions so please consider taking on you a bit or use the ignore member feature if there's just no way you forgive someone to not play exactly like you, that's what you reflect of yourself so far.

Just use the ignore member on me.

Everything you wrote will be ignored.

The only guy making personal attacks is you: I only wrote about the subject of the thread, you didn't. You wrote just about me.

Tks for nothing and bye.

2 hours ago, SinancoTheBest said:

**** Sorry if that was a totally unrelated with that semantic discussion about what challenge and reward means, just wanted to remind myself of the theoretical model of why do people like to play video games.

1.That is totally related with the discussion.

2.All challenges have a reward. (This definition don't need "likes")

3.Reward is not just money, or a medal, or a gift. Pleasure and satisfaction are rewards.

[Yuuko]

8 hours ago, Cannoli said:

2.All challenges have a reward. (This definition don't need "likes")

3.Reward is not just money, or a medal, or a gift. Pleasure and satisfaction are rewards.

IF you actually include #3 in your consideration, than your want for some "reward" for playing Wes is negated.  The reward for playing Wes is that you enjoyed playing Wes, and were satisfied with your game.

/thread

[Cannoli]

3 hours ago, Shosuko said:

 The reward for playing Wes is that you enjoyed playing Wes, and were satisfied with your game.

/thread

Exactly.

And, as (almost) nobody is satisfied playing Wes, nobody plays Wes! 

There is no reward, then there is no challenge.

If nobody accepts the challenge (because there is no reward), then there is no challenge at all. (That was my first message).

This is so obvious.... I would like end by now. Who understood, understood. Who don't, can continue keep thinking challenges don't have reward and Wes is a challenge even nobody accepts. Tks if nobody quote me again. 

[reallychina]

17 hours ago, Cannoli said:

No. Challenge is not just "make things harder".

Challenge is challenge, implies a reward.

Incredible how poor is the knowledge about simples concepts, not just in games, for life.

the reward for a challenge is beating the challenge. it doesnt need extra rewards to qualify as such. it can, but its not a requirement

[Cannoli]

2 minutes ago, reallychina said:

the reward for a challenge is beating the challenge.

No, beating the challenge always bring something: pleasure, satisfaction, social integration.

That's the reward. Every challenge has a reward. Always.