reallychina Posted March 17, 2022 Share Posted March 17, 2022 The rework idea has been great. The issue is that the fight has become way too safe and easy, mainly because too many pillars drop, providing too many safe spaces and stun opportunities. And he is stunned for too long. At this time you can fight it with no speed modifiers whatsoever and still be fine. He also has a leap attack which he rarely if ever uses. If he would at least alternate more between charges and leaps it would be more challenging. Also, too many secondary pillars drop and they are too easy to dodge. I think more big pillars should drop but most of the pillars that do drop would break on impact, leaving fewer pillars around to hide behind and get him stunned. Considering the context of his incredible loot now, the fight is not challenging enough. It would've been fine as is if AG had the old loot table. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/138351-the-new-ancient-guardian-fight-is-too-easysafe/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheggf Posted March 17, 2022 Share Posted March 17, 2022 It's just the AG, it isn't some out of the way raid boss. It's good that he can be fought without a speed boost, allowing people rushing ruins to actually fight AG instead of cheesing him. 20 minutes ago, reallychina said: Considering the context of his incredible loot now, the fight is not challenging enough Many consider the eyebrella to be one of if not the best items in the game and that's obtained by holding F for a few seconds while you're next to a campfire. If you think the pillars are too cheap don't use them, but even if the amount were reduced I don't think that'd do anything since every time I've fought him (admittedly only twice) his outer four pillars never fully broke and could always stun him. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/138351-the-new-ancient-guardian-fight-is-too-easysafe/#findComment-1549383 Share on other sites More sharing options...
reallychina Posted March 17, 2022 Author Share Posted March 17, 2022 6 hours ago, Cheggf said: It's just the AG, it isn't some out of the way raid boss. It's good that he can be fought without a speed boost, allowing people rushing ruins to actually fight AG instead of cheesing him. I'm not saying it's bad you can fight him without speed boosts, i am saying that being able to fight it with no speeds boosts and still be very safe and do a lot of damage adds to it being too easy/safe. 6 hours ago, Cheggf said: Many consider the eyebrella to be one of if not the best items in the game and that's obtained by holding F for a few seconds while you're next to a campfire. But it's not, plus Deerclops is in a way mandatory, as he comes to you, therefore it's expected for it to not be so hard. It's the first boss new players usually encounter. AG is optional, he's not raiding your base randomly. 6 hours ago, Cheggf said: If you think the pillars are too cheap don't use them, but even if the amount were reduced I don't think that'd do anything since every time I've fought him (admittedly only twice) his outer four pillars never fully broke and could always stun him. They are so many that it takes more effort NOT to use them. Stop it with the "you do you" argument, this is a talk about the concepts of a fight, not preferences. At this time the fight is too easy, especially considering the loot table. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/138351-the-new-ancient-guardian-fight-is-too-easysafe/#findComment-1549384 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheggf Posted March 17, 2022 Share Posted March 17, 2022 2 minutes ago, reallychina said: But it's not, plus Deerclops is in a way mandatory, as he comes to you, therefore it's expected for it to not be so hard. It's the first boss new players usually encounter. AG is optional, he's not raiding your base randomly. Deerclops doesn't "come to you". He spawns somewhere in your vicinity and aggros structures, he ignores you completely. If you don't want to fight him literally just hold W when you hear him start growling then when he spawns he'll be far from your structures so you can just walk away from him, his ai will disable, then he'll despawn in spring. Either way if fight difficulty is what matters for boss drop value shouldn't he have bad drops whether or not he "comes to you"? 5 minutes ago, reallychina said: They are so many that it takes more effort NOT to use them. Stop it with the "you do you" argument, this is a talk about the concepts of a fight, not preferences. At this time the fight is too easy, especially considering the loot table. You keep talking about the loot table according to the difficulty of the fight but completely ignore it with deerclops. Instead of looking at how hard this fight is look at what's actually balancing the drops. The same thing in both this fight and deerclops': the requirement to refight them. These drops are absolutely balanced for a boss that requires you to lug statues around, wait for a new moon, fight the SCP (tricky fight for newer players), and fight the AFW (one of the hardest fights in the game). Sure, you can get ONE instance of his drops without doing that. But why do you care if some noob is able to leave the ruins ONCE with 2 more thulecite suits and an extra piece of gem equipment or two than you think he deserves? His drops are great now, but nothing gamebreaking or unbalanced. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/138351-the-new-ancient-guardian-fight-is-too-easysafe/#findComment-1549388 Share on other sites More sharing options...
reallychina Posted March 17, 2022 Author Share Posted March 17, 2022 2 minutes ago, Cheggf said: Deerclops doesn't "come to you". He spawns somewhere in your vicinity and aggros structures, he ignores you completely. If you don't want to fight him literally just hold W when you hear him start growling then when he spawns he'll be far from your structures so you can just walk away from him, his ai will disable, then he'll despawn in spring. Either way if fight difficulty is what matters for boss drop value shouldn't he have bad drops whether or not he "comes to you"? Deerclops literally spawns where you are. He is a big danger to new players, therefore it's expected he's not too difficult. I didn't say he has "bad drops", i said eyebrella is not the best drop in the game. It's a nice item for spring, particularly so for newer players. It's the game showing you what boss content and drops look like. 6 minutes ago, Cheggf said: You keep talking about the loot table according to the difficulty of the fight but completely ignore it with deerclops. Instead of looking at how hard this fight is look at what's actually balancing the drops. The same thing in both this fight and deerclops': the requirement to refight them. These drops are absolutely balanced for a boss that requires you to lug statues around, wait for a new moon, fight the SCP (tricky fight for newer players), and fight the AFW (one of the hardest fights in the game). Sure, you can get ONE instance of his drops without doing that. But why do you care if some noob is able to leave the ruins ONCE with 2 more thulecite suits and an extra piece of gem equipment or two than you think he deserves? His drops are great now, but nothing gamebreaking or unbalanced. The new mechanics make the fight too easy. The drops are a separate argument for it, and yes, they are too good for the first time considering difficulty and they keep being excellent after resets. It's guaranteed 3 green gems afaik and sometimes you can be unlucky to get only 3 greens in a ruins clear. So just on that, he has the potential to double green gems. But he also has many other useful drops. Even if the drops were bad, the fight still remains too easy as it is now. Drops being too good add to the argument of doing something about it. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/138351-the-new-ancient-guardian-fight-is-too-easysafe/#findComment-1549389 Share on other sites More sharing options...
lakhnish Posted March 17, 2022 Share Posted March 17, 2022 I'd rather AG stay as he's been reworked than turn him back into a slugfest like he was before. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/138351-the-new-ancient-guardian-fight-is-too-easysafe/#findComment-1549396 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yuuko Posted March 17, 2022 Share Posted March 17, 2022 6 hours ago, reallychina said: Also, too many secondary pillars drop and they are too easy to dodge. I think more big pillars should drop but most of the pillars that do drop would break on impact, leaving fewer pillars around to hide behind and get him stunned. That's valid 5 hours ago, Cheggf said: If you think the pillars are too cheap don't use them If too many are spawning where you're always behind pillars by default its not really a choice. I haven't fought him since the beta started, I'll have to go back and do it again to get a better opinion - but I think "too many pillars are spawning" is valid criticism. The pillars that drop are pretty big too, so its very easy for AG to hit them again without you doing much. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/138351-the-new-ancient-guardian-fight-is-too-easysafe/#findComment-1549429 Share on other sites More sharing options...
reallychina Posted March 17, 2022 Author Share Posted March 17, 2022 4 hours ago, lakhnish said: I'd rather AG stay as he's been reworked than turn him back into a slugfest like he was before. Nobody wants to turn it back to a slugfest. It's just that objectively the fight is too easy now. With some tweaks to how many extra pillars can spawn in the arena and how often he leaps, he could be taken down in the same amount of time with same resources, but the fight would be engaging. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/138351-the-new-ancient-guardian-fight-is-too-easysafe/#findComment-1549433 Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArubaroBeefalo Posted March 17, 2022 Share Posted March 17, 2022 or the stun time... you can hit him +16 times with the longest distance Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/138351-the-new-ancient-guardian-fight-is-too-easysafe/#findComment-1549438 Share on other sites More sharing options...
dish-order man Posted March 17, 2022 Share Posted March 17, 2022 i would prefer his stun time being random so players need to analysis the behavior of AG to judge he is awake or not Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/138351-the-new-ancient-guardian-fight-is-too-easysafe/#findComment-1549441 Share on other sites More sharing options...
HumanBean150 Posted March 17, 2022 Share Posted March 17, 2022 1 hour ago, reallychina said: It's just that objectively Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/138351-the-new-ancient-guardian-fight-is-too-easysafe/#findComment-1549449 Share on other sites More sharing options...
reallychina Posted March 17, 2022 Author Share Posted March 17, 2022 25 minutes ago, HumanBean150 said: that is correct Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/138351-the-new-ancient-guardian-fight-is-too-easysafe/#findComment-1549458 Share on other sites More sharing options...
HumanBean150 Posted March 17, 2022 Share Posted March 17, 2022 1 minute ago, reallychina said: that is correct no? no. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/138351-the-new-ancient-guardian-fight-is-too-easysafe/#findComment-1549459 Share on other sites More sharing options...
reallychina Posted March 17, 2022 Author Share Posted March 17, 2022 1 hour ago, HumanBean150 said: no? no. yes Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/138351-the-new-ancient-guardian-fight-is-too-easysafe/#findComment-1549475 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maxil20 Posted March 17, 2022 Share Posted March 17, 2022 From the beta QOL update thread: On 2/28/2022 at 12:52 PM, ScottHansen said: Ancient Guardian is a new fight. This is not intended to be a hard boss fight, but to be more fun than the previous version. The guardian certainly isn’t the hardest fight ever, but in all honesty I think that’s fine. While I do think the amount of random pillar bits it summons when hitting a pillar could be toned down, I don’t really want much else to change about it. It’s a simple but fun fight, and I like the gimmicks you utilize to your advantage. As for the loot, I personally think it’s alright. You only get the loot every time you kill the guardian, which means you can’t get more until you progressed far enough to beat the fuelweaver. It was especially polarizing when SW quacken (one of the easiest bosses in the series, with as much HP as a DST Beefalo) gave loot that was substantially better then the DS/T guardian loot 95% of the time. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/138351-the-new-ancient-guardian-fight-is-too-easysafe/#findComment-1549498 Share on other sites More sharing options...
reallychina Posted March 17, 2022 Author Share Posted March 17, 2022 19 minutes ago, Maxil20 said: From the beta QOL update thread: The guardian certainly isn’t the hardest fight ever, but in all honesty I think that’s fine. While I do think the amount of random pillar bits it summons when hitting a pillar could be toned down, I don’t really want much else to change about it. It’s a simple but fun fight, and I like the gimmicks you utilize to your advantage. As for the loot, I personally think it’s alright. You only get the loot every time you kill the guardian, which means you can’t get more until you progressed far enough to beat the fuelweaver. It was especially polarizing when SW quacken (one of the easiest bosses in the series, with as much HP as a DST Beefalo) gave loot that was substantially better then the DS/T guardian loot 95% of the time. Im not saying they should make it Fuelweaver or Crab king, just that some minor tweaks are needed, a combination of less pillars, more leaps or something. The main takeaway is that its too safe, to the point that some random ruins situations (bad combo or clockworks, shadows etc) are much more dangerous than AG itself. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/138351-the-new-ancient-guardian-fight-is-too-easysafe/#findComment-1549512 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baark0 Posted March 17, 2022 Share Posted March 17, 2022 First the boss was too hard, now its too easy, the poor minotaur cant get a break can he Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/138351-the-new-ancient-guardian-fight-is-too-easysafe/#findComment-1549557 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Milordo Posted March 18, 2022 Share Posted March 18, 2022 11 hours ago, Baark0 said: First the boss was too hard, now its too easy, the poor minotaur cant get a break can he More a broken, junky, bugged than a ""hard"" boss fight Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/138351-the-new-ancient-guardian-fight-is-too-easysafe/#findComment-1549732 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monkey Cups Posted March 18, 2022 Share Posted March 18, 2022 The boss is fine. It's much more fun than before, which is the point. It doesn't need to be pulling teeth difficult. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/138351-the-new-ancient-guardian-fight-is-too-easysafe/#findComment-1549852 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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