Forum's Opinion on the Wendy rework.

[ArubaroBeefalo]

7 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

Purple Gems? Why??

Long-Off Topic response in spoiler:

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You only need purples if you want to get to topped of Mightiness.

the way I do it: Stone- Useful only for going from Wimpy to Average form and for throwing as Projectiles when Mighty.

(Stone Raises might fastest when in Wimpy, and it slows down when trying to use at Average)

GOLD is the Next step up, useful for going from Average Size to Mighty, and can be used as projectiles if you can a mass gold easily (use stone dumbbells to kill birds and rabbits for morsels, give them to Pig King for Gold) Gold Dumbbells will slow down Might Gains once you pass the AVERAGE threshold.

GEMbell- Useful exclusively for going from already being in Mighty form, to topping it off at 100% (any other use of this Dumbell is a waste of Gembell Durability)

Theres a very logical reasoning behind WHY it works this way, I am a skinny human: Picking up a 5 Lb weight while skinny will be a workout and I’ll gain muscle, Sure I could “TRY” to lift a 15/30 Lb weight but it’ll be heavier and I’ll lift it significantly slower..

However- once I lift the 5Lb weight enough to where it’s effortless to lift I’ll no longer gain muscle from it (hence the slower might gains) to buff my muscles up even further I would need to up my weight to the 15/30.. and much like I had the 5 Lb lift those until lifting them ALSO becomes effortless, finally to get really ripped I’ll move up from 15/30 Lb to 40/50Lb

If your SKINNY and WEAK lifting something heavier you will “Struggle” in doing thus waste time getting the workout done. Gain some muscle and no longer “Struggle” then you won’t gain muscle mass and need a heavier weight.

I feel like this is the vitally important part of Wolfgang’s rework people are just failing to understand.. 

Theres a REASON why Stone Dumbells get you out of Wimpy form faster then gold or Gem, Gold out of Average to Might, and Gem to top out Might..

And it makes perfectly logical real world sense.

 

having 3 dumbells is a waste of inventory slots

[abrocator]

8 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

Purple Gems? Why??

Gembells are the most efficient way to get mighty if you are also starving.  The gym doesn’t work since it drains your hunger.

So the point is simply that… it’s silly to even suggest that the Wolfgang rework was kind-of-maybe a buff because of the hunger thing since food is much, much cheaper than purple gems.

Quote

Theres a REASON why Stone Dumbells get you out of Winpy form faster then gold or Gem, Gold out of Average to Might, and Gem to top out Might..

And it makes perfectly logical real world sense.

But that’s not how it works?  I was under the impression that stone, gold and gem were equally good at getting you out of wimpy.  Then gold and gem are equally good at getting you out of normal form.  And finally only gem is good at topping it off.

[Cloakingsumo198]

6 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

"It's about drive, it's a about power"

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Yeah but if the gold and gem dumbbells are significantly heavier...

Shouldn't they also do more gains while wimpy? I think it's pretty crap that they don't do better than stone while wimpy.

Also I'ma be abusing video game logic instead of using irl logic.

[Yuuko]

4 hours ago, Mike23Ua said:

Theres a very logical reasoning behind WHY it works this way

I feel like this is the vitally important part of Wolfgang’s rework people are just failing to understand.. 

I don't think ppl fail to understand it - but I think its not a very valuable interaction.  Realistically you have 2 states on current Wolfgang, either Mighty or Wimpy.  Normal is transient b/c you have either decide to go Mighty to do something, or let it fall to Wimpy because you will not need the benefits any more.  There is no reason or circumstance where you go to / stay normal form.

As such the dynamic of lifting certain weights for certain benefits isn't a very impactful part of his kit.  If you are going to Mighty form neither a stone or gold bell are gonna do the job on their own.  You could carry 2 weights and switch as you lift to be more efficient, but tbh you'll probably just pump to mighty on a gym, run where you're going, top off with gem bell, and let it completely fall off when you're done.   never touching stone or gold.
Killing birds for gold is great, but you can kill moles, gobblers, rabbits, etc easily too.  It is more convenient to use a ranged weapon on birds but the result isn't super unique or important.  Getting some gold early helps, but an extra stack of gold isn't likely to define your run as amazing or anything.

If there were an actual benefit to being normal form I think it would give more visibility to the effect of the weights.  Say if normal form had a 20% movement speed, using a gold dumbbell when exploring would be very good b/c you could get a lot time in normal form very efficiently, and if you ran into a fight just fight at 1x or use a gembell to top off mighty first.

Pre-refresh the normal form had a place simply b/c it was the default state.  You had to nearly starve to reach wimpy, so if you make some mistake you'd fall into the penalty state getting less move speed etc until you could fix the problem, but with nominal skill you'd never see wimpy form unless you wanted to.  Normal also lessened the food drain so you would often stay normal out side of times where mighty was useful - but didn't always drop to wimpy due to eating patterns, and inconvenience of ms penalty.  The dynamic between wimpy / normal / mighty is really under utilized in the refreshed version and new mechanics b/c wimpy is the default state, so normal form - having no actual benefits - lacks purpose.  You'd never think "man, I gotta go to normal form" right now.

This is different from Wanda who has 3 forms.  Young is good because you gain max health.  If you are concerned you might take some damage randomly, or just haven't accessed any perks that want her to be older, then you stay here.  Once you get your AC and night armor you go elder form to gain the damage, but middle age still acts as a buffer with a bit more safety, a bit less damage, and removes crafting / hammering / carrying penalties.  All 3 forms have a use, and none are really the default state.  Wolfgang doesn't need to copy this exactly - its okay to have one of his states be default...  but if the default is gonna be wimpy then normal should really have *some* perk.

Personally I think 20% move speed would be a great perk for normal form.  People who are athletic gain speed when they trim down, so its a thematic fit.  It also makes his kit more streamlined with the general play pattern of the game as he can use stone / gold to maintain normal while exploring and leave off gyms and gems until he's tackling bosses.  This gives his kit some sense of progression that doesn't really exist now as getting gold weights doesn't really mean anything.  You just jump straight to gems and gyms b/c unless you go might, you might as well stay wimpy.  It adds a dynamic element to his kit where you might jump on a gym, pump to 75% and run off to utilize the speed perk while carrying a gem weight to top off before a fight.  This also would smooth out his perk of wearing marble armor and piggypacks as he currently ignores the penalty in mighty form BUT doesn't in normal form...  So unless you top off mighty all the time (again, the binary play style) you don't get much out of this perk.  A 20% move speed boost exactly offsets this, so if you do like wearing marble armor & piggypack you'd basically have all of normal and mighty form as time without the penalty, and only suffer ms penalty for these in wimpy.  Anyway - I'll never give up hope that Klei will do the right thing here...

4 hours ago, abrocator said:

Gembells are the most efficient way to get mighty if you are also starving.  The gym doesn’t work since it drains your hunger.

So the point is simply that… it’s silly to even suggest that the Wolfgang rework was kind-of-maybe a buff because of the hunger thing since food is much, much cheaper than purple gems.

But that’s not how it works?  I was under the impression that stone, gold and gem were equally good at getting you out of wimpy.  Then gold and gem are equally good at getting you out of normal form.  And finally only gem is good at topping it off.

The gain rate for weights is tier 1 = 0.3125, tier 2 = 0.9375, tier 3 = 1.875  So tier 2 is 3x tier 1, and tier 3 is 2x tier 2 (6x tier 1)

The tier gains are different per form, so wimpy / normal / mighty

Stone dumbbell = 3/2/1
Gold dumbbell = 3/3/1
Gembell = 3/3/3

So you're right - it is not better to use any weight over another in wimpy, so due to efficiency stone is best - BUT I think the bigger focus is on purple gems, and wimpy is only 25% of the meter while normal form is 50%.  So going gold to 75 then gem to 100 is a reasonable efficiency to enjoy without the tedium of carrying 3 weights when one of them is hardly used.

edit - on the subject, the efficiency of gold vs stone in wimpy or being thrown is pretty close.  A stone dumbbell is 4 rocks and a twig.  Gold is 2 gold, 2 cut stone (6 rocks), and 2 twigs.  Considering a gold dumbbell has 2x the durability you're really just swapping 2 rocks for 2 gold.  Gold is sometimes easier to access than rocks b/c of pig king, so there is a reasonable argument gold is more efficient than stone even in wimpy / thrown.

[HowlVoid]

I used to be on the nerf Wendy wagon and still think the petal debuff on a beef thing is a bug, but at the end of the day let people have their fun. Some of us put too much energy into nerfing characters we don't even play. 

I have a dream, that little plant boys and little goth girls can't sit at the table of balance.

I have a dream, that little old ladies won't be judged by the uses of their books or watches, but by the content of their lore.

OH I HAVE A DREAM, ladies and gentlemen, that we will have a day where EVERY character, including Wolfgang, will be as fun and in-depth as Wanda. Amen.

[Dollmaker]

13 hours ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

that would encourage taking more care of her and her -25% damage will have sense

anyways, i dont think klei should waste time on her. At most just delete her damage boost since it doesnt make sense, she always had -25% damage because abi deals damage, now she has damage boost+abi's damage

a cooperative perk because potato

If i recall that boost applies for everyone, Wendy gets a stronger one, but everyone benefits from Abigail.

I think it makes sense since it helps her a lot on bosses, even if its a short dmg burst, since before Abigail (and even now a bit) she would get deleted by the boss, and leave Wendy alone, and she is still pretty weak without her. 

I think it makes sense, with the whole sister bond thing, for them to be stronger when they are together. 

[Mike23Ua]

Petal Debuff+ Warly Special Food Buff+ Wolfgang = Dead Whatever you were once fighting.

That doesn’t even factor in Maxwell who will more then most likely use dark magic to boost Wolfgang’s Might even further..

Warlys food dishes were also recently changed to be useable on A.I Followers- that includes Pigmen & Beefalo by the way..

Yet people want Wendy’s Petal buff removed just because why again exactly?

Ill tell you what’s going to happen in that scenario: Wendy players who used to get close to danger to benefit from that boost in damage is now just going to TRULY stand idly AFK out of Danger while Abigail does all the work.

Glass Canon Wendy had this same issue- Hence why Klei removed it as they want you to actively work in unison with your twin sister.

[NightfallsCurse]

It wasn't really wendy herself who had gotten the rework, but it was mostly abigail, might as well have called it the abigail rework instead

[SecretPizzaMan]

22 hours ago, MrSoratori said:

lets be honest for a sec, shall we?

dude,tell me why u r doin this thread

To conquer the world.

Spoiler

c'mon don't act clever you know exactly why I am doing this.

 

[NightfallsCurse]

On 2/2/2022 at 7:37 AM, MrSoratori said:

let's be honest for a sec, shall we?

dude, tell me why u r doing this thread

If there's something that you don't care about, simply just do not reply to it, it's about the Wendy rework, imo one of the best reworks out there. Maybe one day they wanted to make a thread abt sum and decided to make a thread abt the Wendy rework, i really don't see a problem in this

[Horsheen]

Yeah I think she's super fun to play. People say she's too strong yadda yadda but it really doesn't matter in a co-op game

[Well-met]

47 minutes ago, Horsheen said:

Yeah I think she's super fun to play. People say she's too strong yadda yadda but it really doesn't matter in a co-op game

once again it's not about the difficulty, or how computer opponents have no feelings.

 It's about not having to endure 6 wendys in a server because there's next to no reason using 95% of the roster. That's the bad part.

and no, vomitting a character's perk with the moon portal and switching back doesn't count as ""using them""

Spoiler

For the record, yeah balance is actually important in PvE and thinking otherwise betrays your inexperience in this facet of videogames

 

[Mike23Ua]

1 minute ago, Well-met said:

once again it's not about the difficulty, or how computer opponents have no feelings.

 It's about not having to endure 6 wendys in a server because there's next to no reason using 95% of the roster. That's the bad part.

and no, vomitting a character's perk with the moon portal and switching back doesn't count as ""using them""

  Reveal hidden contents

For the record, yeah balance is actually important in PvE and thinking otherwise betrays your inexperience in this facet of videogames

 

I will counter this by stating that yes Wendy is a great character choice, however.. Wendy by herself isn’t that great, Wendy paired with Wolfgang/Wanda and Warlys special food buffs however Is overpowered.

I also find it absolutely hilarious how people want to “nerf” one of the few characters who actually has Team Based perks.

Abigail isn’t just helpful to Wendy but to any other character attacking Alongside Abigail, this also makes Wendy + Wes a viable paring, because what Wes lacks in strength Abigail assist him with, And since Most Wes players will be picking flowers for garlands and most Wendy players will be mass murdering spiders for silk- Wes can instead of making garlands put those petals into Wendy’s Sisturns, and Wendy can give him top hats for better sanity restoration then picking flowers for Garlands.

Wes is the lowest of the low the worst of the worst character choices you can possibly pick, that is his intended design.. Tools burn through durability faster when he’s trying to chop or mine, so the small underused things such as Wigfrids Weaponized Warble scroll… pair up Well with him.

While “Balance” is important in a team based game, so is “TeamWork” and it just seems like some people were upset with the Wolfgang changes that they now want to target Wendy for a nerf.

People say I can’t compare DST to SMITE because DST isn’t an MOBA.. while it not being an MOBA is most certainly true, it’s also false that I can’t compare them- 

Smite may be a PvP game, But.. the other 4 people on the same TEAM with you are your TEAMMATES, let’s not forget that smite isn’t just straight up 1v1 PvP, There’s also a lot of team synergies that go well together, such as.. playing as Nu Wa and rolling your team invisibly through a cloud of smoke so Medusa can gaze lock them all in place while the Kulkan on your team comes up behind them and blows them all away like helpless bowling pins with his Ult.

This required NuWa, Medusa & Kulkan to work TOGETHER to achieve this feat.

In the very same way Wendy+Wolfgang+Warly = Dead Whatever the heck it was you wanted to murder.

[Yuuko]

1 hour ago, Well-met said:

once again it's not about the difficulty, or how computer opponents have no feelings.

 It's about not having to endure 6 wendys in a server because there's next to no reason using 95% of the roster. That's the bad part.

and no, vomitting a character's perk with the moon portal and switching back doesn't count as ""using them""

  Reveal hidden contents

For the record, yeah balance is actually important in PvE and thinking otherwise betrays your inexperience in this facet of videogames

 

Generally I agree with your sentiment that game balance is important even in a pve game - BUT I don't think Wendy is atrociously over powered.  While she can exploit a beef to neutralize her damage penalty, netting her a pretty good damage buff, this does require her to go through the process of taming a beef.  This has been made a lot easier with yotb but its still not free.

imo there are 3 main areas of game balance.  Early game, which is basically just straight out of the portal, Wendy will not have a beef to use reliably in combat.  Wigfrid has 25% damage boost, defense boost, along with her life / sanity steal.  Unless your early game goals consist of farming spiders / frogs, Wigfrid is gonna speed ahead through content.  Mid game Wendy has her beef to exploit, but Wurt and Webber will have set up a merm / spider army and competing with that Wendy is not gonna win.  Fast forward to late game, people could have set up catapult / tentacle farms, stacked blow darts, etc...  I mean basically what I'm saying is Wendy is strong, in the sorta "always good never best" category.  From early to late she provides good value, and she is easy to play - but I don't think I'd consider her "overpowered."

1 hour ago, Mike23Ua said:

While “Balance” is important in a team based game, so is “TeamWork” and it just seems like some people were upset with the Wolfgang changes that they now want to target Wendy for a nerf.

Wes is the lowest of the low the worst of the worst character choices you can possibly pick, that is his intended design.. Tools burn through durability faster when he’s trying to chop or mine, so the small underused things such as Wigfrids Weaponized Warble scroll… pair up Well with him.

In the very same way Wendy+Wolfgang+Warly = Dead Whatever the heck it was you wanted to murder.

I don't think its necessarily a reaction to Wolfgang getting nerfed - although that might contribute there has been a streak of calls for nerfing Wendy since her refresh.  Sometimes they point to edge cases like "If she tames a beef she gets 150% damage !!" as if that is some insane damage mark.  Other times they point to ease of use "she can afk farm butterflies and ppl just feed her while she afk for the whole season."  Either way I'm not really convinced...

*Wes does not waste tool durability.  He has a lower tool consumption rate to match his lower work efficiency.  What this means is it takes him a few extra chops to take down a tree, but the end result is still 15 durability off an axe.  This is the reverse of Wolfgang who takes a tree down several cuts quicker, but also still burns the same 15 durability.
I would take Wendy + Warly + Wanda combo over that any day.  Wanda maintains a higher damage rating with less upkeep, and provides teleports.  idk how anyone could sleep on that when talking about OP team comps lol

[ArubaroBeefalo]

if someone has the knowledge to take advantage of a beefalo+managing abigail i think is okey if that way of playing is effective. Isnt like they are broken the game, is a super safe way of dealing with the game dangers neither can be used vs all the bosses. Nerfing advanced tactics doesnt really brings anything interesting when the advanced tactic might do it

[Mr Giggio]

9 hours ago, NightfallsCurse said:

If there's something that you don't care about, simply just do not reply to it, it's about the Wendy rework, imo one of the best reworks out there. Maybe one day they wanted to make a thread abt sum and decided to make a thread abt the Wendy rework, i really don't see a problem in this

It is a good rework indeed. aaaand it is a rework which happened few months ago. after that, a lot of another ones. so this thread, in first place, is late. and my question about the point has value exactly cuz that.  this behave about carin is just u jumpin at conclusions, and that i really dont care indeed. 

im not against Wendy at all. so u can cut this off.

[NightfallsCurse]

3 hours ago, MrSoratori said:

which happened few months ago

Almost 2 years ago*

[Horsheen]

21 hours ago, Well-met said:

once again it's not about the difficulty, or how computer opponents have no feelings.

 It's about not having to endure 6 wendys in a server because there's next to no reason using 95% of the roster. That's the bad part.

and no, vomitting a character's perk with the moon portal and switching back doesn't count as ""using them""

  Reveal hidden contents

For the record, yeah balance is actually important in PvE and thinking otherwise betrays your inexperience in this facet of videogames

 

People don't play characters strictly due to how well they perform. 

[Echsrick]

39 minutes ago, Horsheen said:

People don't play characters strictly due to how well they perform. 

now i wonder how popular wendy would be if she looked differend

[Cloakingsumo198]

45 minutes ago, Horsheen said:

People don't play characters strictly due to how well they perform. 

Spoiler

 

Yeah you're right I don't play Wendy despite me liking her concept.

Her voice makes me feel pain.....

[Dollmaker]

9 minutes ago, Dr.Medic said:

now i wonder how popular wendy would be if she looked differend

I think it has a lot more to do with her morbid-suicidal personality. 

One of the main appeals of the characters is their personality. 

[Echsrick]

1 minute ago, Dollmaker said:

I think it has a lot more to do with her morbid-suicidal personality. 

One of the main appeals of the characters is their personality. 

wait you mean people love a boring personality and wanting to die every second? thats kinda weird

[Dollmaker]

Just now, Dr.Medic said:

wait you mean people love a boring personality and wanting to die every second? thats kinda weird

You would be surprised how popular grim personalities are. 

 

[Echsrick]

1 minute ago, Dollmaker said:

You would be surprised how popular grim personalities are. 

 

nah its propably because shes blond then wanting to die boring personalty

[Dollmaker]

Just now, Dr.Medic said:

nah its propably because shes blond then wanting to die boring personalty

Theres more to it though, she is mourning her sister, and in fact shes the whole reason she even keeps on living, since she believes Abigail would disappear if she decided to move on or if she dies.

She also has some other funny aspects to her, mainly that despite her depressive behavior, she still acts like a kid sometimes, as seen with her friendship with Webber and having tea parties, or when she asked Woodie for a ride in his Beaver form (which btw that moron forgot about despite promising to do it).

Or the fact that she likes art but its embarrassed about it and doesnt want people to find out.