About bosses

[Capybara007]

i know a lot of people will vote "yes" because most of us want a new exciting fight against an outdated boss like ancient guardian, or a loot that is worth after defeating crab king.

But being realistic, is the team really up to do these changes? And most importantly, is it gonna be beneficial for the game in the long run?

[Milordo]

5 minutes ago, Capybara007 said:

And most importantly, is it gonna be beneficial for the game in the long run?

This is the question i'm the most worried about it. Especially with how Don't Starve really needs more than ever a health pack revisit of all the game  

[Capybara007]

im fine with the hp of some bosses but some enemies having more hp is dst than in ds is kinda ridiculous, like buzzards.

[Echsrick]

i dont know, all i want is less enemy spam from bosse that spam enemy

[Ohan]

Kiting AG is a full blown nightmare now.

The stunlock changes were made cuz Wanda’s whip broke the game and now the rest of the cast has to suffer the consequences. 

And they certainly do suffer more from it than Wanda herself because she still has a whip that hits like a truck so she can always deal more damage/land more hits during each “stun lock window”. (Especially noticable with mactusk)

I hope AG is very high up the list of priorities for the first upcoming QoL update.

If they have something big planned and it’s gonna take a while, they should really lower its HP asap as a bandaid fix until then.

[HellHeater]

klei did say that new QoL updates will change out gameplay 

they might be refering to cheesing bosses and other stuff they could just stop the cheesing methods

[Mike23Ua]

The answer to this question honestly goes into these 3 QoL updates coming later this year- JoeW teases in the roadmap that they will impact how you play the game a little more then previous QoLs have, And- If their going to do another round of updates to World Gen & World Gen settings as they did Here:

then we could potentially see things like actually Random weather seasons & Day Lengths- And If your Weather Season & Day Length is unpredictable flipping from hot then cold, yes and then no like that Katy Perry song… I would say it’s safe to assume that they may even add a health scale to Bosses- Because unless your just some die hard hardcore player: Your not going to want to fight a Health Sponge Boss while your World Gen Settings work against you.

The challenge in that wouldn’t be the “Boss” it would be staying prepared for the random seasons & day lengths.

Thats just MY Opinion though..

And also it’s already been pretty much confirmed by Klei that at least Ancient Guardian is getting some touch ups.

[Echsrick]

11 minutes ago, Ohan said:

Kiting AG is a full blown nightmare now.

The stunlock changes were made cuz Wanda’s whip broke the game and now the rest of the cast has to suffer the consequences. 

And they certainly do suffer more from it than Wanda herself because she still has a whip that hits like a truck so she can always deal more damage/land more hits during each “stun lock window”. (Especially noticable with mactusk)

I hope AG is very high up the list of priorities for the first upcoming QoL update.

If they have something big planned and it’s gonna take a while, they should really lower its HP asap as a bandaid fix until then.

in general that wanda update changed some stun lock things, like, pigs, deers, walrus, and some more,now they just move away, even if you could get more hits in before, and its just bad

[Capybara007]

1 minute ago, Mike23Ua said:

The answer to this question honestly goes into these 3 QoL updates coming later this year- JoeW teases in the roadmap that they will impact how you play the game a little more then previous QoLs have, And- If their going to do another round of updates to World Gen & World Gen settings as they did Here:

then we could potentially see things like actually Random weather seasons & Day Lengths- And If your Weather Season & Day Length is unpredictable flipping from hot then cold, yes and then no like that Katy Perry song… I would say it’s safe to assume that they may even add a health scale to Bosses- Because unless your just some die hard hardcore player: Your not going to want to fight a Health Sponge Boss while your World Gen Settings work against you.

The challenge in that wouldn’t be the “Boss” it would be staying prepared for the random seasons & day lengths.

Thats just MY Opinion though..

health scaling does not and never will work, if you are alone and the bosses have 3000 hp then you have the hamlet issue where you want to use a lower weapon so you can actually enjoy the giant's attacks.

and if you are in a server with 6 people you most likely are gonna fight the boss by yourself or with one more person while the others are doing nothing at base, you basically suffer having to fight a big hp boss for nothing.

5 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

And also it’s already been pretty much confirmed by Klei that at least Ancient Guardian is getting some touch ups.

you also said that Joe confirmed there was gonna be an extra qol in 2021 but nothing happened.

plus the "We know that Ancient guardian is in a bad state" felt like a "Yeah we know its bs but deal with it we are developing other stuff"

the ag changes were made in the wanda update, one month after they released a qol that did nothing about it.

now in klei's defense we could argue that one month to plan a boss rework that suddently became necesary because of a dumb hotfix that made it more annoying is very low time, so we will have to wait and see if they actually want to rework the guardian and maybe other underwhelming bosses.

but like i said i dont work at klei so i dont know if its actually gonna be beneficial for klei to change the stuff that stayed as outdated.

[Mike23Ua]

3 minutes ago, Capybara007 said:

health scaling does not and never will work, if you are alone and the bosses have 3000 hp then you have the hamlet issue where you want to use a lower weapon so you can actually enjoy the giant's attacks.

and if you are in a server with 6 people you most likely are gonna fight the boss by yourself or with one more person while the others are doing nothing at base, you basically suffer having to fight a big hp boss for nothing.

you also said that Joe confirmed there was gonna be an extra qol in 2021 but nothing happened.

plus the "We know that Ancient guardian is in a bad state" felt like a "Yeah we know its bs but deal with it we are developing other stuff"

the ag changes were made in the wanda update, one month after they released a qol that did nothing about it.

now in klei's defense we could argue that one month to plan a boss rework that suddently became necesary because of a dumb hotfix that made it more annoying is very low time, so we will have to wait and see if they actually want to rework the guardian and maybe other underwhelming bosses.

but like i said i dont work at klei so i dont know if its actually gonna be beneficial for klei to change the stuff that stayed as outdated.

In an age where Klei’s Roadmaps are now extending beyond their first year into the next: That QoL update is still coming and is more then most likely.. this one coming to Beta in February.

I said the QoL we got back in October was a “Bonus” and that there would be another one later- I have also posted screenshot evidence that backs that up, if you missed it when I posted it.. I don’t know what to tell you- Because I asked Mr JoeW for Permission before I shared his post. I ask peoples Permission before I Do something that I’m not sure if I should be doing. That’s just the kind of person I am.. 

That QoL was pushed into 2022, just like how they are now promising 4 character reworks that will also be pushed into 2023.

Just be patient & wait.. You’ll see soon enough I bet.

[Pig Princess]

I would appreciate if poll had 2 quiestions: whether one thinks rework of bosses will happen and whether one wants this to happen. Because as much as I want rework of Ancient Guardian, I seriously doubt that will happen anytime soon.

Also Celestial Champion loot could use something more than a single crown, because while solo it's ok and in multiplayer technically one can share with a team crown in the form of eternal mushroom lights, it's still either only a single person from a group gains at least something from the fight, or outside of small location on the map nobody gains anything. Unless one counts glass shards as a loot; but just for comparison Bee Queen has jellybeans that can be split between everyone and 2 extra things, Dragonfly has multiple gems in addition to furnace blueprint and materials, Fuelweaver has 3 things + whole loot of the regenerated ruins, Toadstool/Misery Toadstool also has multiple blueprints, Klaus has multiple things, and some bosses can either be killed in multiple numbers per short period of time (moose/goose), or their loot can be duplicated (thick fur, Malbatross sail, etc.). Technically CC has no cooldown, but fight availability is nowhere near moose/goose due to grindy nature of completing construction project for summoning.

[Capybara007]

added another question, which i assume everyone will say "yes"

[Maxposting]

I forgot the guardian is a boss

[Captain_Rage]

While most intrinsic mechanics of the bosses are quite alright, lag makes narrow hit windows and summons detrimental to fight. Fighting was more complex and equally more fun in The Forge, for example, but that can partially be attributed to shorter network latency (those small event worlds were not very taxing for the servers).

[SkyistheGround]

i dont see why it wouldnt be a possiblity? we're getting major qol updates

[Cheggf]

Other than the ancient guardian, I don't think any bosses could use any changes. Maybe if they wanted to make fighting bosses more engaging as a group they could add a mechanic where bosses will gain new attacks designed for group play if hit by 3 different players. Could even have a way for a single person to trigger the enrage if they want a harder fight.

Shouldn't have any health scaling or anything, though.

[ArubaroBeefalo]

i only want AG rework and an ocarine of time drop for CK, every other boss is perfect

[Mike23Ua]

33 minutes ago, Cheggf said:

Other than the ancient guardian, I don't think any bosses could use any changes. Maybe if they wanted to make fighting bosses more engaging as a group they could add a mechanic where bosses will gain new attacks designed for group play if hit by 3 different players. Could even have a way for a single person to trigger the enrage if they want a harder fight.

Shouldn't have any health scaling or anything, though.

Really? As a solo player getting Dragonscales off Dragonfly is more complicated then it Needs to be.. 

I either have to pick Wolfgang (it’s boring to be forced into a character choice..)

Exploit the Twins of Terror into attacking her for me..

OR I Can just invite friends and play the fight as intended.

Theres clearly room for changes here: and in my personal opinion the bosses are unique batches of content with their own unique gameplay mechanics some even spawn mobs you don’t currently encounter anywhere in the game outside of their fight (Peepers, Larvae) It’s Content within Klei’s game that EVERYONE of all skill levels should be able to enjoy- but in its current form it’s time gated/Skill gated..

Theres a lot of my friends who WOULD enjoy boss fights if they weren’t such a pain in the- for example..

I play on Xbox, I feel it’s important that I mention that because I don’t actually HAVE to ever fight Dragonfly/Bee Queen etc- I can turn them off and they won’t ever spawn- I can also turn on events like WintersFeast to get Bundling Wrap, and all the Gems Dragonfly drops just by sleeping near a decorated tree.

I can do this at ANY TIME now.. which aside from things like the exclusive Blueprints/loots they Drop- Means that you only fight them to experience the gameplay mechanics of the fight itself.

Which feels ironic as heck for me to say: Because most people just build a ton of walls, or plant Bunnymen near to the boss to AVOID experiencing the unique mechanics of the fight.

The above is therefore evidential proof that Bosses do indeed need tweaking, maybe let me adjust them to be as easy or as difficult as I feel like fighting them at the time.

If you played this game on anything beyond “Default” settings such as for example playing with weather seasons set to Shortest (6 game days currently but might be shorter in future QoL) you will absolutely and guarantee it from personal experience: get absolutely SICK of fighting Endless Deerclops/Bearger Spawns every time their seasons return.

it’s fun for a little while sure, but eventually you just ignore that either one of them even spawned at all & then you’d only leave them toggled to ON if you genuinely enjoy having them in your business every 12 or so game days.

Allowing the content of the game to become more accessible to a wider range of players can only be a good thing for Klei..

Because in its current form, a lot of people (myself included) intentionally ignore most boss fights knowing they’ll be over in much shorter time frames if I just brought a group of friends to help deal damage to it.

Klei could add A.I. team mates for solo players to aid in this by like literally letting me put Wolfgang + Wendy on the team as A.I. partners: But that would require way more time and effort then just knocking their HP/Damage dealt down a peg or two.

Case in Point: Does a Solo player really even need to deal with “Phase 2” on most bosses?

I genuinely “Want” to enjoy bosses.. but what I DON’T want to do is be forced into picking a high damage character or having to build some elaborate mouse trap board game like contraption to exploit the fight..

ETC..

[ArubaroBeefalo]

18 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

As a solo player getting Dragonscales off Dragonfly is more complicated then it Needs to be.. 

hire some pigs/bunnymens/merms and hit him, they will reach the point where she is stunned and will drop the scale

[MondayNight]

AG and CK could benefit from a rework, AG mostly for attack mechanics (plus an up in loot quality to justify the new effort of taking it down) and CK for different gem combinations equating different loot tables to make it more desirable for repeating fights (is a pity such complex boss with engaging fight mechanics is relegated to a 1-time and very disappointing "spoils of war"/loot). Aside these, as others above mentioned, perhaps bosses en large should gain new attacks when 3-4-and-above players tackle them (especially if respective players use buffed foods, superior-damage items).

[Mr Giggio]

13 hours ago, Capybara007 said:

im fine with the hp of some bosses  

 ii think it could be interesting for cases like toadstool if the boss has hp related as many players are into the shard cuz some battles solo are just a huuge time consumin and nothin else 

[Capybara007]

On 1/28/2022 at 2:21 AM, MrSoratori said:

 ii think it could be interesting for cases like toadstool if the boss has hp related as many players are into the shard cuz some battles solo are just a huuge time consumin and nothin else 

this is very unjustifed, a lot of people think that "omg toad is unfair for solo!!!" but in reality you can deal almost 10 hits without needing to dodge, the problem with bosses is not the hp, its the mechanics.

ancient fuelweaver has less than 20k hp yet he is harder than toadstool because of healing and shield mechanics.

and like i said earlier, health scaling does not work, it does in games like terraria because of much movement and control of the locations the game gives to the players, if a player is mining, other is fishing, and other is summoning the twins at night, the two doing other task can just use a mirror and instantly fight so they get a bag that is for them and only for them

in dst this is impossible to implement: the game does not tell "this boss has awoken!" so the players have to comunicate to know where the fight is gonna take place at

you might think that the players will say "come to the flare we are gonna do dfly" but such coordination does not exist in public servers

so how is it gonna work? only has the health based on how many players are close? what if some players exploit this and go away just leaving one player to spawn the boss, and then go back? will the boss gain more max hp if players come close to the fight? what if a random wendy that just joined and doesnt wants to fight gets close to the boss? will the boss heal from this player not contributing?

this is why health scaling doesnt and will never work in dont starve together

 

also thread revival pog

[dubious little]

Honestly I just want a health balance for when the worlds set to singleplayer, or even just more customisable health because some boss fights are just straight up boring. Dragon fly for example is just badly made, she either takes ages to kill with nothing interesting happening to justify for how long it lasts or you stun lock her into oblivion, she's bad in solo and multiplayer somehow. A boss taking longer to kill is somewhat an added difficulty but it doesn't work after a bit if the enemy doesn't change phases or something.

[Capybara007]

sure you can say that if you do walls+flute+90 helmets and healing+tank

[Mike23Ua]

8 hours ago, Capybara007 said:

this is very unjustifed, a lot of people think that "omg toad is unfair for solo!!!" but in reality you can deal almost 10 hits without needing to dodge, the problem with bosses is not the hp, its the mechanics.

ancient fuelweaver has less than 20k hp yet he is harder than toadstool because of healing and shield mechanics.

and like i said earlier, health scaling does not work, it does in games like terraria because of much movement and control of the locations the game gives to the players, if a player is mining, other is fishing, and other is summoning the twins at night, the two doing other task can just use a mirror and instantly fight so they get a bag that is for them and only for them

in dst this is impossible to implement: the game does not tell "this boss has awoken!" so the players have to comunicate to know where the fight is gonna take place at

you might think that the players will say "come to the flare we are gonna do dfly" but such coordination does not exist in public servers

so how is it gonna work? only has the health based on how many players are close? what if some players eexploitthis and go away just leaving one player to spawn the boss, and then go back? will the boss gain more max hp if olayers come close to the fight? what if a random wendy that just joined and doesnt wants to fight gets close to the boss? will the boss heal from this player not contributing?

this is why health scaling doesnt and will never work in dont starve together

 

also thread revival pog

I’ve been playing video games for over 30 years, I’ve seen methods that both work, and fail miserably.

Borderlands had a method that works: Player joins- “the creatures of Pandora have grown stronger” Player leaves “the creatures of Pandora have grown weaker”

State of Decay 2 has a Method that works- Enemy zombies will damage you in solo play but when 2 or more players are meant to be working together these zombies gain a new terrifying ability of being able to pick you up and after a few seconds rip you into two separated parts for an instant kill, forcing cooperation or else…

Some MMOs had methods that failed: Enemies become stronger the close a player gets to a boss, this does one of two things: 1 some jerk comes and stands near enough to the boss to increase difficulty but doesn’t actually help.. or 2- It encourages people to leave the area so the fight is easier for one party in their group.

As the host of the world in DST- I feel I should personally have total & complete control over how easy/hard different aspects of the game will be on players who Opt in to joining my World.

This is ALREADY the “Xbox Experience” with DST, we don’t actually have Klei official servers (yet..) so any (and all) hosted games are hosted by a Player host- and when you join that hosts game you will be playing by whatever world Gen settings they have applied at the time.

Ive joined worlds as Wurt where the world was permanently locked to 24/7 Summer and to make matters worse- Ice was completely disabled with Wildfires set to happen more frequently.

These are the kind of experiences I have with this game on a daily basis when I choose to join another players game instead of hosting my own 

(I wish Klei will do a QoL update that lets me see what all the host has toggled for their settings AFTER I have already joined their world, because at the time of me typing this you can only review what has been toggled Before joining the session.)

Boss scaling is just another notch on that list of things they could (& should) be able to toggle.

And upon further pondering- how it SHOULD work in a Klei Official server is “World Gen Presets” you play by the rules KLEI has set for that particular server..

(so yes you can literally have servers where bosses are a large hp grind intended for lots of players, and servers where they’re easy to kill with low hp)