The "hate" against the game vs. the frustration against Wolfgang's dumbbells

[mr. brj]

This topic is my latest feedback regarding the Wolfgang rework, and at the same time an unnecassarily argumentative answer to those people who have been replying "No.", "STOP", or words along those lines to the Wolfgang suggestion/feedback threads right from the start, and discusses why we are not stopping with these suggestions and feedback, especially regarding the new mightiness mechanics.

Seeing that some forumers started to give suggestions on improving the new Wolfgang, who actually supported the direction of the rework from the beginning,  motivated me into write this whole thing. As I said on a previous post before, we all want the Wolfgang rework to be a solid one in the end. By keeping these topics relevant, we are trying to achieve this purpose. 

 

One thing I love most about the Don't Starve games is that the game can always give you a reason to "hate" it. You may want to build stuff in your base after surviving for hundreds of days, but one simple miscalculation can still ruin everything you have accomplished in that world. You may be extremely skilled in fighting bosses, but an untimely and large hound wave can still wreck the whole fight if you forgot to prepare for that as well. You might have a triple Mactusk biome in your world, and you still are not guaranteed to get your walking cane in your first year. Heck, you might have completed every objective in your world, and you still can die to Charlie if you stopped paying attention.

This is one of the many charming aspects of this franchise. This frustration against the game motivates you to play more, and you enjoy it. Even if you don't, you play the game knowing this, and DST has the option to rollback in most cases anyways. Still, frustration is part of the game for a reason: the developers are not sadistic people, they might enjoy giving us unfair challenges in the game, but they also know that these challenges are the things that keep us spending hours with their game. If they believe that an unintended challenge is too much for the enjoyment, they fix it whenever it is possible to.

 

So, why did I write these two paragraphs? Because the new mightiness mechanics are frustrating to deal with, key words being "to deal with". What this means is that while gaining mightiness itself might be enjoyable to some players, to those I sadly can't relate to, the challenge of trying to maintain mightiness is frustrating to say the very least. The problem with this frustration is that it requires you to not engage with the game itself. The gym minigame, while requiring player interaction, tethers the player to certain locations, making it either a late game luxury in terms of accessibility or an additional task to do at your base during the early game. Plus, you still need the dumbbells to maintain the mightiness after using the gym. This is why I will only be discussing the problems with the dumbbells.

I tried to give the new Wolfgang so many chances, but the amount of times I made a visit to my IRL fridge while Wolfgang was working out made me realize that my frustration against these new mechanics wasn't the same with the frustration against the unfairness of the game. The latter requires you to constantly think, stay alarmed and plan things out in advance while playing the game. Although accessing the mightiness mechanics requires you to do the same stuff, in the end, you are doing all of these just to be in a safe spot, and once you have waited enough, then you can continue playing the game without the risks of the wimpy form. In short, your only two options are looking for a safe spot to work out on, or to ignore working out completely and stay wimpy for as long as possible.

All of this makes me feel as if I'm being punished for wanting to play the game without Wes-level drawbacks, and although I'm sure that the punishment aspect is kind of intended, getting to play around a character's drawbacks shouldn't be based around not engaging with the game, because this literally creates the situation where the solution for getting frustrated is to take a moment away from the game, i.e. appreciate the art style for a bit, go get a drink from the fridge, change windows and read the forums, etc. And you might even have noticed that I haven't said anything about utilizing Wolfgang's mighty form, because my main reason for wanting to workout with Wolfgang shifted from wanting to utilize his strength to avoiding his drawbacks, at least during the majority of the gameplay. The amount of mightiness he gains from the gembell is good and all, but why waste its durability while exploring or while gathering resources? Then you have the golden dumbbell, which is kind of good for gaining a large amount of mightiness with cheaper resources, and therefore for avoiding the wimpy form, but then again, it requires the player to do nothing (as in the player is not allowed to do anything else).

 

Back to the frustration aspect. I don't think that the frustration against the dumbbells is healthy for the game. If the game provides the player with something they can hate, the player should then want to challenge themselves with that thing in order to avoid the frustration, or learn to ignore that thing that causes the frustration. You have the option to ignore Deerclops, hound waves, darkness, even the enraged Klaus. In time, you start to learn which annoying things you want to ignore and which ones you want to face, because facing those will provide you with an advantage in the long run. So is it healthy for Wolfgang's character if a player decides to ignore the dumbbells whenever it is possible? Is the frustration caused by the dummbbells worth the outcomes? Does using the dumbbells even provide an equally rewarding or a fun experience? I will have to answer no to all these questions, and can only hope that the developers have some new (or even some old) ideas that will make their ways into the game.

[Random Guy000]

Yes, please, make even more Wolfgang threads, we clearly dont have enough of those

[mr. brj]

2 minutes ago, Random Guy000 said:

Yes, please, make even more Wolfgang threads, we clearly dont have enough of those

So, I should post my feedback on other threads even though it is off-topic? Also, Klei did tell us to give it some time and let them know what we think, so just let us do that.

[Random Guy000]

6 minutes ago, mr. brj said:

So, I should post my feedback on other threads even though it is off-topic? Also, Klei did tell us to give it some time and let them know what we think, so just let us do that.

Your feedback is as simple as "dumbbells boring, make more fun", but you decided that its such a new point, that nobody mentioned the same thing in a billion other Wolfgang threads, so you made new one

[mr. brj]

16 minutes ago, Random Guy000 said:

Your feedback is as simple as "dumbbells boring, make more fun", but you decided that its such a new point, that nobody mentioned the same thing in a billion other Wolfgang threads, so you made new one

Technically, no one mentioned the frustration aspect of the game and what it means for the Wolfgang refresh. Plus it is disrespectful to the devs if you just call it boring and demand a change, that's not how feedback works. Double plus, if you don't want any other Wolfgang threads on the first page, stop replying to them.

[Random Guy000]

2 minutes ago, mr. brj said:

if you don't want any other Wolfgang threads on the first page, stop replying to them

Ignoring the problem is an awful way of solving it

3 minutes ago, mr. brj said:

Technically, no one mentioned the frustration aspect of the game and what it means for the Wolfgang refresh

A lot of people did mention the fact that its boring as hell, and thats practically your point. If you replace the "Frustration" in OP with "Boringness" nothing will change. The fact that you wrote 4 paragraphs about it doesnt make it any better

[mr. brj]

Just now, Random Guy000 said:

Ignoring the problem is an awful way of solving it

This is exactly the reason why people are creating these threads.

I really don't want this thread to go off topic, so feel free to send me a private message or forgive me for ignoring your next reply if you post any.

[Random Guy000]

Just now, mr. brj said:

This is exactly the reason why people are creating these threads.

Did i say "Stop making suggestions for fixing Wolfgang"? I said "Stop making threads". Im tiered of people constantly littering main page with their Wolfgang complains instead of simply using 1 thread for this 1 topic like normal people

[hhh2]

1 hour ago, Random Guy000 said:

Yes, please, make even more Wolfgang threads, we clearly dont have enough of those

if you don't want to see them don't bump them XD

[Gi-Go]

5 minutes ago, Random Guy000 said:

Did i say "Stop making suggestions for fixing Wolfgang"? I said "Stop making threads". Im tiered of people constantly littering main page with their Wolfgang complains instead of simply using 1 thread for this 1 topic like normal people

Eh, the guy wanted to interact with people and had a lot to say. Writing all this as reply could result in waste of effort as noone reads those. I don't see the big deal, soon enough people will stop talking about Wolfgang and forget he even existed. 

[mr. brj]

4 minutes ago, Gi-Go said:

Eh, the guy wanted to interact with people and had a lot to say. Writing all this as reply could result in waste of effort as noone reads those. I don't see the big deal, soon enough people will stop talking about Wolfgang and forget he even existed. 

Yes, it really is enough for me if Klei decides to read even a portion of what I wrote. People interacting is always appreciated, but I seriously don't expect anyone to read the whole thing.

[Gi-Go]

I read it. Regret it. You probably could have shortened it to 20 words or less. 

Anyways, the point is i guess dumbbells are annoying? True. For me (Wes main) whimpy form is not a big deal, I'm mostly frustrated that I have to put so much effort for a miserable damage boost.

Here is public server story. Followed Wanda into ruins for lolz and ended up quitting in frustration. My hambat spoiled, my muscles shrinked, cannot kite bishops. Yet she is as strong as ever, captures rooks mid their rush, bullies knights, bullies shadows, destroys monkeys, dodges bishops. It made me feel like I'm playing as an outdated trash. And indeed i was. So I left to play a different server, as Wolfgang is unbearable to me now. 

 

[mr. brj]

2 minutes ago, Gi-Go said:

I read it. Regret it. You probably could have shortened it to 20 words or less. 

I like writing long stuff ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

4 minutes ago, Gi-Go said:

Followed Wanda into ruins for lolz and ended up quitting in frustration.

The only mistake I see here is to follow another character as Wolfgang, especially one that bulldozes everything on her path:D 

[Gi-Go]

6 minutes ago, mr. brj said:

The only mistake I see here is to follow another character as Wolfgang, especially one that bulldozes everything on her path:D 

I like to stalk people ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[Cheggf]

1 hour ago, Random Guy000 said:

Your feedback is as simple as "dumbbells boring, make more fun", but you decided that its such a new point, that nobody mentioned the same thing in a billion other Wolfgang threads, so you made new one

Maybe if the dumbbells weren't so boring everyone wouldn't keep making threads saying they're boring.

46 minutes ago, Random Guy000 said:

Did i say "Stop making suggestions for fixing Wolfgang"? I said "Stop making threads". Im tiered of people constantly littering main page with their Wolfgang complains instead of simply using 1 thread for this 1 topic like normal people

Because the forums that get a single digit amount of new threads per day surely are unbrowsable with 3 out of the 18 threads being related to Wolfgang. If you don't want to see Wolfgang threads don't click on threads with Wolfgang in the title.

[Cloakingsumo198]

18 minutes ago, mr. brj said:

I like writing long stuff 

Don't worry brj I read it all and don't mind the nuance.  The lack of impulse control is always prevalent so individuals will always slip in just to say "stop" to forums they won't take part in.

The presence of others speaking out, "surprisingly" supports speaking out yourself it's good to voice your own opinion it adds to the tally.

As for the workout mechanic it sucks to be stuck with only the gym and dumbbells as the only way to manage mighty. Long periods of working out is painful waiting whilst occasional pumps are hardly worth it enless already near max mighty with gem bells or near 75 with gold bells so you could atleast use the 2x damage for 30 seconds or so.

The mighty meter as of now is impossible to ignore no matter what Wolfgang will always power down from mighty without any workouts interrupting your flow in less than a day.  Another day of not stopping for a minute to workout will lead to wimpy especially if you aren't topped up in hunger which isn't as helpful anymore either.  Wolfgang has to constantly manage himself and not in a good way as it's essentially afking for stats 

[Yuuko]

I feel you on this.  I moved on from trying the Wolfgang rework.  It was so bad I moved on to Warly because he basically does everything new Wolfgang does, but in the right way for the game.  You nail the problem exactly right here:

6 hours ago, mr. brj said:

The problem with this frustration is that it requires you to not engage with the game itself. The gym minigame, while requiring player interaction, tethers the player to certain locations, making it either a late game luxury in terms of accessibility or an additional task to do at your base during the early game. Plus, you still need the dumbbells to maintain the mightiness after using the gym.

With Wolfgang you're given a very specific problem, and a very specific set of answers.  Build a gym to cap mighty before you go, and use dumbells to maintain mighty as you go.  This is far too basic, tedious, and unengaging.  What you gain from mighty is a significant damage boost, and a work speed bonus.

Warly can match Woflgang's work speed with honey spice (super easy spice to access) and his damage with volt goat jelly (1.8x is pretty close to 2x, and if they're wet he gets 3x beating both Wolf's.)  They both have extra setup, but where Wolfgang's is easier to set up it is also never ending.  While Warly's is more tough to get set up, it also engages you in the world sourcing your ingredient supply, and once you have your ingredients sourced is suddenly much easier to maintain.

Wimpy as a downside in previous Wolfgang was a penalty for reaching low hunger.  Wimpy for new Wolfgang is the default form, being that if you are actively playing and doing things, no matter what you're doing - if you don't lift weights you will default to this.  There is no "right" or "good" way to play him, the only answer is to lift weights.  I've had FUN starving to death as Warly when I accidentally torch my crock pot trying to collapse it at night, or frantically searching for some ingredients as I realize I let my hunger slip low, thinking of some other recipe I could whip up with the ingredients at hand without getting the repeated dish penalty a 3rd time, and these create exciting and impactful moments which are instantly remedied when I clutch some dish or die trying.  In my last game I made a desperate dash to base because I forgot to bring my crock pot to farm Walrus.  I got back to my base, threw meat in my pot and brewed it up, chomping it down just 3 hp before I died...  It was very exciting, and would also be remedied by bringing my pot with me or better preparing dishes to last my trip.  Wolfgang has no such thing.  If you're wimpy there are NO quick solutions to evade the damage penalty or damage penalty, and even bringing your weights with you - you're still stuck in the same cycle of maintaining mighty you had from day 1.  Many times I would be in wimpy form and weigh whether it would be faster to gain mighty or just do the task with the penalty... and often I just might as well stay wimpy... (in which case I might as well play Wilson)

Most of DST is summed up as "difficult if you're unprepared," but Wolfgang isn't this - he is tedious, because the only "prepared" thing you can do is continually pump your weights even as you gain *nothing* from being mighty.

[mr. brj]

Wow, I love playing Warly and never once have I thought of comparing him to Wolfgang. Best analogy I've seen by far. Plus you are not alone, I even torched my portable crock two times in a single world:D

25 minutes ago, Shosuko said:

Wimpy for new Wolfgang is the default form, being that if you are actively playing and doing things, no matter what you're doing - if you don't life weights you will default to this.  There is no "right" or "good" way to play him, the only answer is to lift weights.

This is the part I'm most upset about. Wolfgang could be improved in so many ways as a character, both in terms of buffs and nerfs, but now his gameplay feels constantly blocked. Will I feel somewhat okay if Klei introduces running+lifting? Why not. But I personally still can't understand how all of these changes were justified in the first place.

[Gi-Go]

26 minutes ago, mr. brj said:

Wow, I love playing Warly and never once have I thought of comparing him to Wolfgang. Best analogy I've seen by far. Plus you are not alone, I even torched my portable crock two times in a single world:D

You know, hammering burning crockpot will extinguish it. 

Not a joke, Warly's crockot is unbreakable. It will simply dissasemble itself and extinguish fire in process. 

[themightyone]

It's by far the worst character refresh I have seen Klei do. It's truly awful and I have given up on Wolfgang. Woody and Warly from here on out. 

KLEI fix this abomination!

[Spino43]

My problem with wolfgang is he is still basically the old Wolfgang without really anything fresh or new. He is still a mighty dude who can dish out x2 damage, but with a whole weird new way to gain mighty instead of just chomping down food. You are just going a different route to the same goal, nothing has changed. And the added perks can be nice, but have niche uses imo.

[Mr Giggio]

Thats what i didnt get it from the rework: removin the pratical part of migthyness, why??

I mean, the speed bosst bein gone is actually okay but the way they overcomplicated the migthyness feels bad 

the main reason i play wortox [who im tryin to fool i love his personality] is cuz hes way too pratical to get his mechanic goin on, kill somethin and boom u have something to go

Some perks need to be triggered in a simple way and even tho i think this:

12 hours ago, mr. brj said:

The amount of mightiness he gains from the gembell is good and all, but why waste its durability while exploring or while gathering resources?

is relative [by the fact you conveniently dont point it out u will spend less than half of the resources in boss batles anyway and thats huge, kinda shady] i really thing its more fun the more practical it is so i will just agree with ur point

My problem with ol wolfgang was the fact he had the world with just few berries but just removin speed bonus did solve the case and offered a fun spot to look at usin magi/beefs cuz  he was way to god to bother tryin get those once he never need it, but now the gym thing actually slowed him down even more xD 

[Gashzer]

Gembell is cheap, lasts 11 days, only have to use it for 10-esh secs every 6.5mins to maintain double damage + increased working speed, why are people so against something so op which barely takes up any time?

Said this before, i would rather watch wolfgang lift a dumbell for 10secs a day than have to bother with spamming meatballs on crockpots, now i survive on cooked monster meat and healing salves for bosses, not a crockpot in sight.

If i wanted to be forced to cook with a crockpot, i would play warly.

[Mysterious box]

14 hours ago, Shosuko said:

I feel you on this.  I moved on from trying the Wolfgang rework.  It was so bad I moved on to Warly because he basically does everything new Wolfgang does, but in the right way for the game.  You nail the problem exactly right here:

With Wolfgang you're given a very specific problem, and a very specific set of answers.  Build a gym to cap mighty before you go, and use dumbells to maintain mighty as you go.  This is far too basic, tedious, and unengaging.  What you gain from mighty is a significant damage boost, and a work speed bonus.

Warly can match Woflgang's work speed with honey spice (super easy spice to access) and his damage with volt goat jelly (1.8x is pretty close to 2x, and if they're wet he gets 3x beating both Wolf's.)  They both have extra setup, but where Wolfgang's is easier to set up it is also never ending.  While Warly's is more tough to get set up, it also engages you in the world sourcing your ingredient supply, and once you have your ingredients sourced is suddenly much easier to maintain.

Wimpy as a downside in previous Wolfgang was a penalty for reaching low hunger.  Wimpy for new Wolfgang is the default form, being that if you are actively playing and doing things, no matter what you're doing - if you don't lift weights you will default to this.  There is no "right" or "good" way to play him, the only answer is to lift weights.  I've had FUN starving to death as Warly when I accidentally torch my crock pot trying to collapse it at night, or frantically searching for some ingredients as I realize I let my hunger slip low, thinking of some other recipe I could whip up with the ingredients at hand without getting the repeated dish penalty a 3rd time, and these create exciting and impactful moments which are instantly remedied when I clutch some dish or die trying.  In my last game I made a desperate dash to base because I forgot to bring my crock pot to farm Walrus.  I got back to my base, threw meat in my pot and brewed it up, chomping it down just 3 hp before I died...  It was very exciting, and would also be remedied by bringing my pot with me or better preparing dishes to last my trip.  Wolfgang has no such thing.  If you're wimpy there are NO quick solutions to evade the damage penalty or damage penalty, and even bringing your weights with you - you're still stuck in the same cycle of maintaining mighty you had from day 1.  Many times I would be in wimpy form and weigh whether it would be faster to gain mighty or just do the task with the penalty... and often I just might as well stay wimpy... (in which case I might as well play Wilson)

Most of DST is summed up as "difficult if you're unprepared," but Wolfgang isn't this - he is tedious, because the only "prepared" thing you can do is continually pump your weights even as you gain *nothing* from being mighty.

I wanted to give this a word of support but while I do support this all I was thinking is maybe this will make people understand just how good Warly is.

[MondayNight]

8 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

Gembell is cheap, lasts 11 days, only have to use it for 10-esh secs every 6.5mins to maintain double damage + increased working speed, why are people so against something so op which barely takes up any time?

Said this before, i would rather watch wolfgang lift a dumbell for 10secs a day than have to bother with spamming meatballs on crockpots, now i survive on cooked monster meat and healing salves for bosses, not a crockpot in sight.

If i wanted to be forced to cook with a crockpot, i would play warly.

Problem is with Gembell (and, by extension, all Dumb-bells') durability and the fact you lose Mighty while fighting, more-so boss fighting, when clearly is physical effort as well (mechanic consistency). I've been playing (without much pleasure) "new" Wolfgang since his rework came out till now across many pubs and in practice the 2 aspects mentioned above are a glaring problem: I had to go a bit further from fight during Toad, CK and CC to do the idle animation because I've fallen out of Mighty during mid-fight - quite the let-down. Said durability issue transforms Wolf in a Gem/Gold and Stone "eater" on top of higher food intake during "exercise". All-in-all not a pleasant experience, even with the consistent 2x damage plus the "fluff" of Marble Armor/Piggybag/heavy objects carrying without speed penalty (or the forgettable rowing acceleration perk).