Outside of events, minigames should not be a staple of gameplay going forward

[sudoku]

I think we can all agree that everyone who plays DST enjoys the game and likes its gamplay right?

Gameplay which can be defined as exploring, collecting, crafting, building, and fighting. Id call these the big 5. Everything you do in the game is birthed from this gameplay loop. Even our main stats we must manage are there to help guide us through this gameplay loop. For example, the hunger stat requires you to explore to find and collect food, fight creatures to gain food, and then build structures to store and have access to craft better food. Meanwhile, the health meter lowers from fighting engagements and raises from gathering and collecting resources to craft, say a healing salve or a pierogi.

Previously old Wolfgang was incredibly intertwined with this gameplay loop as he needed food to activate his buff, which reinforced the direct gameplay loop that the hunger meter had us managing. Now the difficulty of doing this was not hard largely because of this redundancy. It was not a perfect system, but it cannot be denied that it had synergy with our core gameplay loop. There definitley was room for improvement and implementing a mightiness mechanic which can be more easily tuned than food quantity is a worthwhile solution.

However the way mightiness has been implemented is less than satisfactory. Currently, in order to manage our new mightiness meter, which we already established is meant to help guide us through the gameplay loop, and which is also why giving a character a new meter is the easiest way to give them a differing playstyle, we need to build a structure that allows access to a minigame. 

Now you may at this moment be saying "cmon dude why are minigames so bad, you just personally hate them", to which you would be correct! However, my personal bias aside, while I do not like minigames, there inclusion in events like Lunar New Year or Summer Carnival are mostly harmless (the debate of whether a minigame disrupts the multiplayer setting and flow of normal gameplay is another topic of discussion entirely). But, fundamentally, having a minigame be the basis of a characters playstyle is not good design as far as the gameplay loop is concerned because it largely Ignores it entirely. I say largely because outside of building the gym, there is no other connection. We sacrifice a potential blueprint for guiding us through raising our mightiness with a series of clicks that are importantly lacking any connection to the established gameplay loop, which is incredibly dissapointing when a characters whole goal is to introduce permeatations on normal gameplay. 

Its probably too late for Wolfgang, but I hope that any future minigame related content is saved for our optional seasonal events, of which there are newly 2 so there is no lack of space for them.

[Mike23Ua]

I actually like the find lost stuffs mini-game they gave to Wendy, and I will also probably like the Lift stuffs Mini-Game on Wolfgang.. I mean think about it: How do you portray lifting weights and getting buff without it just being boringly starring at your screen as he does it himself? I don’t think Mini-Games should become standard with every character Mind you.. but I do feel like lifting large objects on a gym scale couldn’t possibly be transitioned into actual gameplay any other way.

And besides: Once you have a Gembell it will pretty much never be needed for the Weight lifting mini-game right?

I definitely think Wendy’s & Wolfgang’s should be the only ones though- not all characters need mini-games added into their kit.

[sudoku]

24 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

I actually like the find lost stuffs mini-game they gave to Wendy, and I will also probably like the Lift stuffs Mini-Game on Wolfgang.. I mean think about it: How do you portray lifting weights and getting buff without it just being boringly starring at your screen as he does it himself? I don’t think Mini-Games should become standard with every character Mind you.. but I do feel like lifting large objects on a gym scale couldn’t possibly be transitioned into actual gameplay any other way.

And besides: Once you have a Gembell it will pretty much never be needed for the Weight lifting mini-game right?

I definitely think Wendy’s & Wolfgang’s should be the only ones though- not all characters need mini-games added into their kit.

Does Wendy have a minigame? Do you consider Hunting a Koalefant a minigame, or is it merely a form of exploration, one of the 5 pillars of the gameplay loop. She explores to find pipspooks and then tracks their toys similar to a koalefant following koalafant tracks, in the end allowing her to collect morningglory, which then lets her craft a buff for abigail. 3 out of the 5 boxes are checked.

As for how they make working out in a gym more dynamic? They dont. They should have found a different solution that engaged more with the gameplay loop.

I didnt mention the dumbells becuase i think that is the better direction to take mightyness gain so i am mostly satisfied with it despite it being clunky to pull off in combat.

 

[Majestix]

Other people like the minigame, and don't like staring at the screen while he lifts dumbbells. The solution is simple: if you dislike a character's core game mechanic, either just don't use it (it's perfectly feasible to play Wolfgang without ever building the stationary gym) or choose a different character. Why do you have to ask for the removal of a mechanic that is so easy to avoid?

The whole point of these reworks has been to give different characters unique mechanics, so that people can choose how they want to play the game. Old Wolfgang had no interesting unique mechanics, his "unique" mechanic was just "eat more than others, and be essentially invincible". New Wolfgang has some unique mechanics, so that people have an actual choice: if you like his play style, play Wolfgang, if you don't, play another character.

[sudoku]

3 minutes ago, Majestix said:

Other people like the minigame, and don't like staring at the screen while he lifts dumbbells. The solution is simple: if you dislike a character's core game mechanic, either just don't use it (it's perfectly feasible to play Wolfgang without ever building the stationary gym) or choose a different character. Why do you have to ask for the removal of a mechanic that is so easy to avoid?

The whole point of these reworks has been to give different characters unique mechanics, so that people can choose how they want to play the game. Old Wolfgang had no interesting unique mechanics, his "unique" mechanic was just "eat more than others, and be essentially invincible". New Wolfgang has some unique mechanics, so that people have an actual choice: if you like his play style, play Wolfgang, if you don't, play another character.

But they like staring at the screen to watch him lift? The dumbells were trash too until they made them usable in combat, which i still think needs work. 

Why is it a good thing thst a mechanic that is supposed to shape how you play is so easy to avoid?

Did you read my whole post and not just the title?

[Majestix]

Just now, sudoku said:

But they like staring at the screen to watch him lift?

Can we please not start a discussion about whether anyone is "right" or "wrong" to like a particular game mechanic? Clearly, these people exist (for the record, I am not one of them, I have moved on from Wolfgang about a year ago). To convince yourself of that you just have to read the forums. If you cannot accept that different people have different preferences (hence the unique mechanics for different characters), then you have more problems than just the Wolfgang rework.

[Mike23Ua]

9 minutes ago, sudoku said:

Does Wendy have a minigame? Do you consider Hunting a Koalefant a minigame, or is it merely a form of exploration, one of the 5 pillars of the gameplay loop. She explores to find pipspooks and then tracks their toys similar to a koalefant following koalafant tracks, in the end allowing her to collect morningglory, which then lets her craft a buff for abigail. 3 out of the 5 boxes are checked.

As for how they make working out in a gym more dynamic? They dont. They should have found a different solution that engaged more with the gameplay loop.

I didnt mention the dumbells becuase i think that is the better direction to take mightyness gain so i am mostly satisfied with it despite it being clunky to pull off in combat.

 

I guess honestly it comes down to player preference, I don’t like standing around in my base waiting long periods of time for crockpot foods to finish cooking, I would PREFER an actual interaction here like mixing the pot, chopping food or whatever: But that falls into more “Mini-Game” Territory.

I think I would rather lift Gym weights then stare at a cook pot though.

I could be completely alone in this opinion: just felt like sharing how I felt.

Some people want cooking food to be more in depth like Sea fishing or RWYS farms-

But is that making it too tedious/mini-game like or no?

The only way Klei will ever truly be able to satisfy everyone is if they offer a “Classic” mode so people can play old ways content worked before they took it into a bold new direction.

Some people actually “Miss” Pre-RWYS farms- Why I haven’t a damn clue… but, the only way they’ll ever get that back outside of a mod: is to either play solo DS or hope for a “Classic” mode.

[sudoku]

15 minutes ago, Majestix said:

Can we please not start a discussion about whether anyone is "right" or "wrong" to like a particular game mechanic? Clearly, these people exist (for the record, I am not one of them, I have moved on from Wolfgang about a year ago). To convince yourself of that you just have to read the forums. If you cannot accept that different people have different preferences (hence the unique mechanics for different characters), then you have more problems than just the Wolfgang rework.

But my first line i stated was "I think we can all agree that everyone who plays DST enjoys the gameplay, meaning the core gameplay loop of exploring/collecting/crafting/building/fighting. So if 100% of players enjoy doing these activities why was a " gameplay" mechanic that doesnt exist within this loop created to shape how a character plays, when there is a chance that less than 100% of players might enjoy it.

All i am asking is that for minigames which has you take a break from normal gameplay not be inlcuded in character kits or important game mechanics. Minigames are perfectly suitable for in game events if a player so chooses to take a break from their open world gameplay.

13 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

Some people want cooking food to be more in depth like Sea fishing or RWYS farms-

But is that making it too tedious/mini-game like or no?

if cooking was reworked to be like the gym minigame, you would build a crockpot, put ingrediants in one time only, and then click on it to stir to raise your hunger. Additional trips to the crockpot would simply require you to perform the stir action, no ingrediants would be required or need to be collected. 

[SinancoTheBest]

I have a suspicion that the only reason you're calling Wolfgang's weight training gym a "minigame" so assuredly is because Klei did so in the preview. In truth it is not, at least nothing comparable to actual minigame activities in Midsommar Cawnival or Chinese New Year events.

I think the weight gym is the best part of the update as it engages with all the exploration-gathering-crafting-building and fighting parts of the game. You explore the map and decide on critical positions to build the gym at, which you upgrade with statues you craft and giant crops you got by gathering seeds, which helps you fight more effectively and hunt for boss statues. If it'll help you get over your personal hatred against minigames, you could try seeing it as an exploration wolfgang does into finding his inner strength. The dumbbell gameplay of standing still to get your stats up is the actual action that is outside of the core gameplay loop, but it is a good necessary compansation for the immobile nature of the weigh gym.

[MondayNight]

1 hour ago, sudoku said:

...But, fundamentally, having a minigame be the basis of a characters playstyle is not good design...

This is the crux of matter with Wolf's rework indeed. Namely you are forced into partaking in his additional rework gimmick/mini-game (Dumb-bells and Gym) to have him function properly, else will remain perpetually Wimpy state. With reworked Willow, Wendy, Wigfrid, Webber (even Wes, granted his new stats were nerfed further) their additional new mechanics are purely optional and ignoring them just makes you play respective character like in past, no penalty whatsoever. Sure, if one dwells into their new mechanics, one gets clear bons, yet, if not fancy them, can discard completely and "all's well, that Maxwell". Not the case with Wolfgang, where his additional new mechanic is now core game-play, and ignoring it will make you remain into a crippling penalty worse than Wes' (which is supposed to be "hardest character" - for Wolf this being quite ironic, since his tagline involves "the Strongman" moniker). No more "here's your favorite character, with more stuff, but ok if you don't like it, plays as before when you ignore the more-stuff" option. Not to mention his Dumb-bell gimmick is... idle/stationary game-play of watching passively an animation, on-and-on, in small increments or all-at-once, for more than 1 minute from Wimpy to Mighty via basic plus medium variants - same, really, with Gym, granted idle times are significantly shorter, partially mitigated by the clicking-game nature of it (even if I personally am not into clicking/rhythm games and clearly didn't expected this from DST, more-so as core game-play for a character). Which, no 2 sides about it, is bad game design. We'll see in coming weeks after rework will be out how much traction new Wolf gains... or loses, given it was and is so polarizing with his mains (as one can see via the deluge of topics complaining about it).

[ArubaroBeefalo]

50 minutes ago, sudoku said:

Does Wendy have a minigame? Do you consider Hunting a Koalefant a minigame, or is it merely a form of exploration, one of the 5 pillars of the gameplay loop

is a minigame even if you dont want to considere it because breaks your point

 

for me the only problem with wolf gym is how dumb easy is it

[Cloakingsumo198]

48 minutes ago, Majestix said:

"unique" mechanic was just "eat more than others, and be essentially invincible".

This guy can read but he clearly never played Wolfgang.

I like the gym and dumbbells but they shouldn't be the only way to build mighty as that incentives only them. They should be a shortcut to building mighty when you have nothing to do or are too low in mighty levels and need to rise up quickly.  There should be other avenues with regular gameplay to increase his might levels

[Majestix]

2 minutes ago, Cloakingsumo198 said:

This guy can read but he clearly never played Wolfgang.

Did you mean me with "this guy"?

[Cloakingsumo198]

1 minute ago, Majestix said:

Did you mean me with "this guy"?

Yes buddy I mean you, I quoted you 

[sudoku]

2 minutes ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

is a minigame even if you dont want to considere it because breaks your point

 

for me the only problem with wolf gym is how dumb easy is it

Does it break my point? I am defining a minigame as something that exists outside the gameplay loop and causes a break in gameplay. Wendys pipspook activity has you doing 3 out of the 5 activities you would normally be doing in that loop. There really isnt a break.

Wolfgangs gym outside of collecting the materials and then building it, which is the normal gsmeplay loop for any structure in the game has you clicking with no interaction towards any gameplay. The gameplay loop is only re enacted once this break in gameplay is over and you now havd 2x damage to fight with. Instead of gameplay providing the means for our 2x dmg buff, the break in gameplay is responsible.

6 minutes ago, SinancoTheBest said:

I have a suspicion that the only reason you're calling Wolfgang's weight training gym a "minigame" so assuredly is because Klei did so in the preview. In truth it is not, at least nothing comparable to actual minigame activities in Midsommar Cawnival or Chinese New Year events.

I think the weight gym is the best part of the update as it engages with all the exploration-gathering-crafting-building and fighting parts of the game. You explore the map and decide on critical positions to build the gym at, which you upgrade with statues you craft and giant crops you got by gathering seeds, which helps you fight more effectively and hunt for boss statues. If it'll help you get over your personal hatred against minigames, you could try seeing it as an exploration wolfgang does into finding his inner strength. The dumbbell gameplay of standing still to get your stats up is the actual action that is outside of the core gameplay loop, but it is a good necessary compansation for the immobile nature of the weigh gym.

I am definfing a minigame as anything that exists outside our gameplay loop and essentially causes a break in gameplay. Wolfgangs minigame does just that.

Even if we count your interactions with the gameplay loop, this is the same for any structure you build and the minigame itself does not provide this exclusively And to compound things further once the setup is done, there is no more gameplay beyond the minigame.

[Majestix]

1 minute ago, Cloakingsumo198 said:

Yes buddy I mean you, I quoted you 

That's pretty hilarious, especially the "clearly" part. I love it when people sound so sure of themselves while talking complete rubbish, for some reason I find the optics of that very funny. For your information: I have more than 1000 hours with DST Wolfgang (to say nothing of DS single player).

[Cloakingsumo198]

10 minutes ago, Majestix said:

That's pretty hilarious, especially the "clearly" part. I love it when people sound so sure of themselves while talking complete rubbish, for some reason I find the optics of that very funny. For your information: I have more than 1000 hours with DST Wolfgang (to say nothing of DS single player).

Then you would know Wolfgang only feels invincible in good hands, you don't bring up how in most pub games the inexperienced Wolfgangs suffer extremely cause they don't know to to utilize their strengths. Instead of giving good reasonings and alternatives for your statements or how to fix Wolfgang's primary gameplay loop you just say wolf is too op so completely gimping his uniqueness aside from damage is a good "rework".  Why don't you give some actual rework ideas to fit his "strongman" persona.  Or how about this why don't you reach for a middle ground with the people you argue with if they want speed but you find running speed to op apply it elsewhere like klei did with rowing and harvesting power changes.

I see most complaints here is about the gym and dumbbells being a stop in gameplay cause Wolfgang is forced to enduring these workouts.

A good change would just be to allow might meter to either gain slowly while hard labouring or for it to be slowed down. Bam you just gave an alternative to help satisfy others without just telling them they are wrong and to accept fate.

All those hours and you still don't know how your community members think.

[sudoku]

I want to add that it is okay if you like the gym minigame. And by calling it a mini game im not trying to be insulting only that mini games in most games are called just that because they are side activites, something you do when you tire and want a break from the normal flow of gameplay, and thats okay. 

But a characters abilities and perks, along with the means in which they aqquire them is like a blueprint the player follows to spice up normal gameplay. Klei has done a wonderful job with this up until this point. I just want to voice my concern that taking a pause from normal gameplay- no matter how small, forming the core of a mechanic, outside of it being a fun side activity, is not the type of content id like to see in the future.

[Majestix]

1 hour ago, Cloakingsumo198 said:

rant snip

I am sorry, buddy, but your logic is broken in more ways than I have the patience to break down for you. One mini-game I don't enjoy is Whack-A-Mole, and arguing with you feels too much like that game. You have a nice day.

[IanKSB91]

I mean maybe is just a question of perspective, I didn't even realise that this game had a gameplay loop jaja (although I can be a little bit slow realizing things).

But still I guess this gameplay loop changes a little bit with each player and each player, when I play with Winona I usually like mostly gather resources and find new ways to use her catapults, when Im playing with Wigfrid or wendy I like to fight mobs or spend time whit my crops or fishing, etc. I didn't even consider that exploring was part of the experience to be honest jaja, also I really like to character swap according to my necesities or proyects so I guess thats part of my loop jaja.

If anything I guess this new pulse minigame just going to be part of the new gameplay loop of wolfgang.

[sudoku]

24 minutes ago, IanKSB91 said:

I mean maybe is just a question of perspective, I didn't even realise that this game had a gameplay loop jaja (although I can be a little bit slow realizing things).

But still I guess this gameplay loop changes a little bit with each player and each player, when I play with Winona I usually like mostly gather resources and find new ways to use her catapults, when Im playing with Wigfrid or wendy I like to fight mobs or spend time whit my crops or fishing, etc. I didn't even consider that exploring was part of the experience to be honest jaja, also I really like to character swap according to my necesities or proyects so I guess thats part of my loop jaja.

If anything I guess this new pulse minigame just going to be part of the new gameplay loop of wolfgang.

I have to point out all of those things you listed as enjoying is the main gameplay loop i am talking about 

Having the gym minigame is a valid mechanic, just not one that i  find personally engaging because outside of setting it up for the first time and placing statues on it, youre not really doing anything to engage with the game to get your buff reward.

I like to throw out the Wigfrid comparison a lot. She has to fight to fill her meter and be rewarded with her song buffs. We are actively doing something in the game, which has a purpose outside of filling up her meter.  The same cant be said for Wolfgang when he uses his gym, and while this is a perfectly valid way to have him fill his meter, i feel like there is a more interesting approach. 

[ArubaroBeefalo]

14 minutes ago, sudoku said:

Having the gym minigame is a valid mechanic, just not one that i  find personally engaging because outside of setting it up for the first time and placing statues on it, youre not really doing anything to engage with the game to get your buff reward.

i get the feeling

atleast it wastes hunger..

[sudoku]

23 minutes ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

i get the feeling

Hey, now that ive officially made a topic on the matter, i promise i wont harp on it forever. But when your passionate about a game and you think something could be better, I have to at least get my concern on their radar or else how are they gonna know for next time. 

Now if next content update is minigame palooza, then at least i know im probably not the target audience anymore and thats my problem but i can at least feel somewhat at ease that i tried. (This is hyper exaggeration btw )

23 minutes ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

atleast it wastes hunger..

That it does which is something i guess.

Im not so sure that having the way you obtain the defining feature of a characters kit be modeled after tent mechanics is very exciting. At the end od the day, im mostly at peace with the gym, i realize they probably arnt going to throw it out and i think this concept provides a work around to insert the gameplay loop back in a meaningful way that still makes use of the gym. I just hope the next time i see a minigame is in an event space.

[Mangrove]

My biggest gripe with the mini-games is that I need to go out of my way to a stationary object to do them, and then the mini-game itself is just a time sink. Although the gameplay of the gym itself isn't as bad as mini-games can go, it isn't fun either and doing it so often quickly becomes tedious. And I'm wishing I could just play the game like normal during that whole time

4 hours ago, Mike23Ua said:

I actually like the find lost stuffs mini-game they gave to Wendy, and I will also probably like the Lift stuffs Mini-Game on Wolfgang.

A difference here is that you aren't punished for skipping Wendy's mini-game for a day. I think there would be a lot of upset people if Abigail disappeared if you didn't find a lost toy every day

[ArubaroBeefalo]

9 minutes ago, Mangrove said:

My biggest gripe with the mini-games is that I need to go out of my way to a stationary object to do them

gembells?