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lets rework just ONE more thing pls...


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Alright when Wendy was released there was a decent, but flawed game pattern made.  Klei came through delivering a wholly different, more thematic and fun experience.  I'm still hoping this can happen for Wolfgang.  Things are close for our strongman, but I think there is still a major issue that is sleeping beneath the entire rework.

Currently the gameplay loop for Wolfgang is to either hit a gym or pump weights to gain mighty, and then use it before the meter drains.  The gym is awkward because its a stationary structure, meaning you'll pump mighty there and get weaker as you travel to your destination where you will actually use your might at.  The weights are awkward because you must stand still and use them, idly watching a looped animation while actually doing nothing...  boring.

Its never better to maintain mightiness now than it is to simply gain might when needed.  If your downtime between actual uses of mighty would allow your meter to drain to zero, you will always save time and resources letting this happen rather than maintaining the forms on the go.  The recent buff to weights only lets maintenance EQUAL efficiency of pumping from 0 IF you wouldn't have dropped to zero during this downtime.  When you put the time it takes to get mighty (or even get out of wimpy damage penalty) next to the task at hand, you might find you LOSE time trying to use Wolf's perk.  For instance if a hound wave is coming in early game, and you'd spend 1.5 minutes getting into mighty, but only a few moments extra fighting hounds in wimpy form - you are more efficient fighting them off as wimpy Wolfgang with a damage penalty than to get mighty.

I believe Klei wants the play loop to be maintaining mighty, and that this play loop can be more satisfying as you aren't sitting there watching a weight lifting loop as much.  The current system just doesn't support this though.

I think we need to change this up:

Currently Mightiness drains over time, effected by hunger.  I really liked oldWolf's eating as it was quite thematic, but I think we should put that mechanic aside.  Its an unintuitive second layer mechanic, and its effect isn't pronounced.  This makes it very awkward to rate the importance of measuring your hunger.  Most players, especially new ones, probably wouldn't even notice this effect.  We might as well let this go.

Instead of draining by hunger, we have the Mighty meter drain over time at a rate that increases as you neglect your muscles.  The longer you go without doing something Mighty, the quicker you become Wimpy.  Doing something mighty will halt the meter and resets the drain rate.  imo this is more mechanically sound, and thematic as maintaining muscles is both the desired gameplay loop (get might, stay mighty, wimpy bad,) and as any athletic person would attest continual effort is required to upkeep their physique.  This means we have a clear gameplay pattern of maintaining our mighty, and no one has to sit idly watching a minute of animation loop.

Currently this already happens when you carry a statue.  The meter halts giving you unlimited mighty until you place it.  We just extend this - any time you use your mighty perk (mine, chop, attack, etc) the meter drain rate resets and you are given a minute reprieve before your meter drains again.  Pumping weights gives you might, and can also give you this minute reprieve.  This would make meter maintenance clearly superior to filling the meter only when needed, as the efficiency of gaining meter stays as it is now, but the efficiency of maintaining the meter is increased by the reprieve from meter drain.

And that's all that needs to change.

Running around and DOING THINGS, being active, would now clearly the best game play pattern, intuitive and clearly communicated, without any secondary layer effects subtly skewing our efficiency.  This makes him more intuitive for new players too.  Part of what lead to the "Wolfgang empty's the camp fridge" meme was players eating tons of food even if they were sitting in camp because they wanted to stay mighty anyway.  They didn't pick the strongman to be wimpy all the time, and this build would work better with that mindset, doing whatever they needed to to stay STRONG.  With maintenance of Mighty / Normal now efficient and part of our game play loop where wimpy form is a bad state a player shouldn't reach if they play well, it would be a fair to penalize players for falling to this state.  In the end this is the most thematic design - who gets weaker while mining / chopping wood anyway?  Using muscles maintains muscles, and the gameplay would now reflect that.

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33 minutes ago, Shosuko said:

Alright when Wendy was released there was a decent, but flawed game pattern made.  Klei came through delivering a wholly different, more thematic and fun experience.  I'm still hoping this can happen for Wolfgang.  Things are close for our strongman, but I think there is still a major issue that is sleeping beneath the entire rework.

Currently the gameplay loop for Wolfgang is to either hit a gym or pump weights to gain mighty, and then use it before the meter drains.  The gym is awkward because its a stationary structure, meaning you'll pump mighty there and get weaker as you travel to your destination where you will actually use your might at.  The weights are awkward because you must stand still and use them, idly watching a looped animation while actually doing nothing...  boring.

Its never better to maintain mightiness now than it is to simply gain might when needed.  If your downtime between actual uses of mighty would allow your meter to drain to zero, you will always save time and resources letting this happen rather than maintaining the forms on the go.  The recent buff to weights only lets maintenance EQUAL efficiency of pumping from 0 IF you wouldn't have dropped to zero during this downtime.  When you put the time it takes to get mighty (or even get out of wimpy damage penalty) next to the task at hand, you might find you LOSE time trying to use Wolf's perk.  For instance if a hound wave is coming in early game, and you'd spend 1.5 minutes getting into mighty, but only a few moments extra fighting hounds in wimpy form - you are more efficient fighting them off as wimpy Wolfgang with a damage penalty than to get mighty.

I believe Klei wants the play loop to be maintaining mighty, and that this play loop can be more satisfying as you aren't sitting there watching a weight lifting loop as much.  The current system just doesn't support this though.

I think we need to change this up:

Currently Mightiness drains over time, effected by hunger.  I really liked oldWolf's eating as it was quite thematic, but I think we should put that mechanic aside.  Its an unintuitive second layer mechanic, and its effect isn't pronounced.  This makes it very awkward to rate the importance of measuring your hunger.  Most players, especially new ones, probably wouldn't even notice this effect.  We might as well let this go.

Instead of draining by hunger, we have the Mighty meter drain over time at a rate that increases as you neglect your muscles.  The longer you go without doing something Mighty, the quicker you become Wimpy.  Doing something mighty will halt the meter and resets the drain rate.  imo this is more mechanically sound, and thematic as maintaining muscles is both the desired gameplay loop (get might, stay mighty, wimpy bad,) and as any athletic person would attest continual effort is required to upkeep their physique.  This means we have a clear gameplay pattern of maintaining our mighty, and no one has to sit idly watching a minute of animation loop.

Currently this already happens when you carry a statue.  The meter halts giving you unlimited mighty until you place it.  We just extend this - any time you mine, chop, or attack the meter drain rate resets and you are given a minute reprieve before your meter drains again.  Pumping weights gives you might, and can also give you this minute reprieve.  This would make meter maintenance clearly superior to filling the meter only when needed, as the efficiency of gaining meter stays as it is now, but the efficiency of maintaining the meter is increased by the reprieve from meter drain.

And that's all that needs to change.

Running around and DOING THINGS, being active, would now clearly the best game play pattern, intuitive and clearly communicated, without any secondary layer effects subtly skewing our efficiency.  This makes him more intuitive for new players too.  Part of what lead to the "Wolfgang empty's the camp fridge" meme was players eating tons of food even if they were sitting in camp because they wanted to stay mighty anyway.  They didn't pick the strongman to be wimpy all the time, and this build would work better with that mindset, doing whatever they needed to to stay STRONG.  With maintenance of Mighty / Normal now efficient and part of our game play loop where wimpy form is a bad state a player shouldn't reach if they play well, it would be a fair to penalize players for falling to this state.  In the end this is the most thematic design - who gets weaker while mining / chopping wood anyway?  Using muscles maintains muscles, and the gameplay would now reflect that.

Hell yeah! This is all the things I have been speaking about we may move away from a speed bonus, but that doesn't mean we have to move away from wolf's old role as always on the move, looking for the next thing to do. :) Mighty should be maintained and useful for multiple things, and punished when wolf can't live up to his persona.

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This is similar to what i first had in mind, with the caveat that it would be too easy to gain mightiness, so to kind of limit this youd have to craft a consumable and any of these activities done within the time limit raises your mightiness. Kind of like a protein shake, but it could be crafted from potatoes and be called "Spudka" or something, but i like your idea of doing these activites simply prevents the mighty decay from occuring.

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The values would have to be tweaked but I would like to see Wolfgang slowly gain mighty when working/fighting it doesn't have to be insanely fast but if he hasn't done anything else or slowed down during that day, I would like to see his might meter raise slightly.  This so that it doesn't completely rely on the gym and dumbbell alone, they would be useful when wolf needs to raise his might meter NOW or when he just needs to maintain it while during downtime/thinking of the next course of action.  I think in order for this kind of style to be more at play his might meter drain needs to be increased so that he actually runs higher risk of powering down when he isn't monitoring his body / staying active.

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Three things I think that could help this:

Allow lifting Dumbells to be a passive animation he just does on his own when the Dumbell is in the hand slot while you move around doing other things.

Allow him to carry an Antlion Boulder or Giant Potato at normal walking speeds casually in his arms in the hand-slot while also still wearing a backpack 

Lastly: there were some leaked scrapped concept animations of him doing things like Bench Pressing a Beefalo.. I think it would be an interesting concept if there was larger items or mobs too heavy to casually carry around.. but can be used for Might gains on the spot.

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I like this premise because it encourages the same sort of active/aggressive play that Wolfgang is known for, and it would encourage fighting and working along the way to better sustain mighty form.

Tuning might be tricky but you make a well-supported argument for this change, which is a welcome relief.

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11 hours ago, Shosuko said:

sip

that looks like smth that would fit a rework just PERFECTLY, and will also motivate the player to stay mighty at all times, not only in the fight.

I wanted just to reduce mightiness drain for non-mighty forms, but that looks MUCH better. Klei should implement this asap, imo

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I think for sure this really hits the nail on the head

many wolfgang players i have seen have always been rather nomadic in their playstyle
so allowing them to gain might from actions allow you to keep that movement going.

I just wanted to add in this quote from @Mike23Ua

""WHY is his Might tied exclusively to Boss fights? I get that Klei wants him to be the best choice for boss fights as intended design: but there is so so much more being Mighty could do beyond just 2x damage. ""

I think this is what the direction the wolf update should be about. make him less of just a fighter and have him just be the strong man and have him do strong things.
And this forum post really delves deep into the apsects of that and really makes wolf feel more like his own character.

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Well, first thing I wanna say is that current system will work flawlessly if they will make whimpy Wolfgang as pathetic as possble with taking double damage and having 0.5 strength instead of 0.75, while also add speed boost to mightiness > a perfect reason to maintain it at all times. 

As for your idea of gaining mightiness from basic things - it's very much bland and meaningless. At that point you might as well make Wolfgang forever mighty and delete mightiness all together, because it's not like you gonna get whimpy ever this way, since running around doing things and being active is don't starve in a nutshell.

I'm having such a hard time understanding why create a problem and then look for a way to fix it. Removing speed boost and then trying to figure out how to make maintaining mightiness be worth your while... hmmm indeed I wonder how. 

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There are a hundred and one ways to portray Might better then Klei does with Wolfgang… and no let’s leave Speed out of the equation for once and truly think about what it means to portray MIGHT so let’s not think about “Superman” because he portrays both speed AND Might.. think exclusively about MIGHT only:

Okay so where does that leave you? Well.. Superman and Incredible Hulk could both stop a moving train by just standing in front of it.. so let’s start with that.

Virtually every cartoon EVER that has Portrayed a Strongman (not a Speedy Man) has portrayed him doing some daring feat- there’s this one particular Scooby Doo episode where a big Wolfgang like Character saves Scooby and Shaggy from an Angry Bull by simply jumping out in front of it and wrestling it’s horns to the ground without being moved from his standing stance.

That’s a start: And it allows players who are NOT dealing double damage to get in a few hits on a Mob Wolfgang would kill with his double damage as Wolfgang pins it down with his sheer strength.

Huge abnormally sized cartoon strongmen are often portrayed as ripping chunks of the ground out of the ground a hurling them at their enemies face.. he could do that too I suppose..

Superman and Incredible Hulk are very bad examples to draw inspiration from.. because they both have more speed 

Klei wants to portray a super strongman, not a super Agility man..

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It’s sad that so many people see speed as defining his character.. :( 

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As I said in another post...give Wimpy form Wolfgangs old speed boost, make his mighty form dumbells a stunning tool with some better punch damage, give others the ability to use dumbells to gain Wolfgang lite temp boosts and finally throw in some more flavorful additions that serve as utility; then BOOM you have made Wolfgang at the very least a more interesting character and at best a perceivable improvement on the OG Wolfgang...not a blatant nerf. 


I might later post the more well explained version of my points in this topic section at some point as this thread seems to open to proposing some unique ideas on how to better improve the beta state character as opposed to discussing *sigh* Wolfgang V Wanda and how Wolfgang needs to get his speed boost reinstated and pretty much go unchanged as it hurts there particular way of play.

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21 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

 It’s sad that so many people see speed as defining his character.. :( 

Yeah, because people are focused on gameplay not some nonsense. 

5 minutes ago, BlueSteelBlades said:

make his mighty form dumbells a stunning tool with some better punch damage.

Is all you offered, and you can forget about it. Noone is gonna make stun animation for every single creature in the game. And without animation this will look like mobs got a midlife crisis mid battle. Stunning mobs mid battle already exists and that is ice staff or flute. 

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12 minutes ago, Gi-Go said:

Yeah, because people are focused on gameplay not some nonsense. 

Gi-Go I see you commenting on pretty much every Wolfgang beta post known to man about how old Wolfgang some perfect gem of a character that doesn't at all need to be better optimised for team play and/or be altered at all --> No real feedback on how to better rework the character just moaning about how much you loved OG wolfgang; defeating the very purpose of the forum.

Though sad to break it to you but is happening, the wheeling are turning and nothing upset or not is gonna change that. You are better off proposing ideas that bring out your favourite traits within Wolfgang in a interesting but equally as viable way. Ultimately leading to potential changes you yourself can at the very least tollerate or come to enjoy. Getting on your knees and praying to Klei not to change it via forums isn't giving them ideas on the upcoming change thus your pleads will sadly be ignored.

 

I am not saying this out of spite but as a means to get the forums back on track of there real objective...revising the rework into something viable and interesting. With pleads for a lack of change likely not getting the intended impact you desire. Hopefully for both our sakes they don't "ruin" him and actually make him cool and usuable, as a bad rework is worse then a questionable OG state.

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36 minutes ago, BlueSteelBlades said:

Gi-Go I see you commenting on pretty much every Wolfgang beta post known to man about how old Wolfgang some perfect gem of a character that doesn't at all need to be better optimised for team play and/or be altered at all --> No real feedback on how to better rework the character just moaning about how much you loved OG wolfgang; defeating the very purpose of the forum.

Though sad to break it to you but is happening, the wheeling are turning and nothing upset or not is gonna change that. You are better off proposing ideas that bring out your favourite traits within Wolfgang in a interesting but equally as viable way. Ultimately leading to potential changes you yourself can at the very least tollerate or come to enjoy. Getting on your knees and praying to Klei not to change it via forums isn't giving them ideas on the upcoming change thus your pleads will sadly be ignored.

 

I am not saying this out of spite but as a means to get the forums back on track of there real objective...revising the rework into something viable and interesting. With pleads for a lack of change likely not getting the intended impact you desire. Hopefully for both our sakes they don't "ruin" him and actually make him cool and usuable, as a bad rework is worse then a questionable OG state.

Pay attention, and read my post if you want proper rework feedback, the one above Mike's cartoon superhero rambling I mean. Not even once did i asked for rework to be reversed into what Wolfgang used to been. The only thing I'm saying is that he should in fact keep his speed, because removing it is the dumbest change to a character ever made (fact, not an opinion). Informing klei and everyone else on this is the single purpose of me being on forums. 

Don't fix what isn't broken. 

As for making rework more interesting - this is some kind of delusion. This rework is already as interesting as any previous one, and it sure is not going to get any more fun than it is with the things you guys suggest. Strangling mobs. causing brain damage to them. Seriously?

I'm not sure why this rework discussion has gotten into downward spiral. Probably because people like you don't actually play Wolfgang, but still want to give constant suggestions and opinions? 

I made a sarcastic topic on why speed removal is bad no matter how you look at it, because i thought people here have common sence and would see that way just how absurd this change is. Seems like that's not the case for majority forumers and I do in fact have to spoon feed you people with explanation to the most obvious thing there is - Walking is not fun and noone likes it. 

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If we threw in new Mighty Wolfgang abilities that had a direct mightiness cost along with these changes this would be the perfect rework imo. Klei took a similar direction with Wigfrid songs to spice her up and i think thats whats lacking in the current rework despite being a better fit here.

Lets say they gave him 2 abilities he could use while mighty.

1 Taunt - Wolfgang flexes his muscles and challenges his foes to pull their attention away from his teamates (activated by right-clicking an enemy) 

2 Leap - Wolfgang leaps to a target location (activated by right clicking a location on the screen)

I would refrain from having any abilites  add damage, and instead have a focus on teammplay and utility

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47 minutes ago, Gi-Go said:

Pay attention, and read my post if you want proper rework feedback, the one above Mike's cartoon superhero rambling I mean. Not even once did i asked for rework to be reversed into what Wolfgang used to been. The only thing I'm saying is that he should in fact keep his speed, because removing it is the dumbest change to a character ever made (fact, not an opinion). Informing klei and everyone else on this is the single purpose of me being on forums. 

Don't fix what isn't broken. 

As for making rework more interesting - this is some kind of delusion. This rework is already as interesting as any previous one, and it sure is not going to get any more fun than it is with the things you guys suggest. Strangling mobs. causing brain damage to them. Seriously?

I'm not sure why this rework discussion has gotten into downward spiral. Probably because people like you don't actually play Wolfgang, but still want to give constant suggestions and opinions? 

I made a sarcastic topic on why speed removal is bad no matter how you look at it, because i thought people here have common sence and would see that way just how absurd this change is. Seems like that's not the case for majority forumers and I do in fact have to spoon feed you people with explanation to the most obvious thing there is - Walking is not fun and noone likes it. 

Edited 10 minutes ago by Gi-Go

I swear everything you say sounds condescending and elitest. The whole unless you play Wolfgang and only Wolfgang you won't understand the issue unbiased. :) Only playing one thing all the time is how you become biased towards one side of thought not the other way around. Instead of insulting everyones intellect and saying the change is objectively bad as though you are the law present your arguement in a more understanding and more open minded way. This whole stubbornness about speed being the issue has blinded you from considering other possibilities and/or seeing anyones point view besides your own god gamer mindset. Hope you are able at a possibly later date reflect on your posts and see how you are coming off and the impact it holds over your arguement. I am not saying your wrong in your desire for speed to remain but at the very least consider other possibilities/changes outside of keeping him the same.

New post:

I thought as I am currently within the forums talking with others I might as well share some of my thoughts on the rework and potential changes that could further improvement upon the build Klei has given us thus far. tbw what follows is an earlier post I made in another beta branch convo but for which I thought would better fit within this chat. I am happy to hear any your own thoughts or opinions on my changes and more valid ideas you can come up with, as we are all aiming to improve upon Klei's build. Enjoy my Post :) 

 

"After seeing the recent hotfix I am starting to believe that Klei is starting to go in the right direction. Of note is the resource harvesting definitely helps make him more viable as a character and more defined as "strong man" which Klei has labelled him as. However, I believe this is thus the beginning of tweaking Wolfgang into something more interesting and ultimately more team orientiented then his past self. I will list some changes I believe will not only make him better to play but more useful to use overall for the greater group.

 

1. Give wimpy form Wolfgang's old speed boost. This not only fits the themematic archetype of a scared and weak Wolfgang but gives the extra utility early on to explore the map and learn of the location of various resource zones. The speed could also be used by newer players to flee dangerous giants or bad situations. All this serving to make him have a more useful day one, with harvesting speed being same and speed being increased but also making into more of a team scout for when the speedsters are not yet prept eg. woodie needing to find supplies to make offering/starve to be optimium. 

 

2. Double down on mighty dumbell tosses as a mechanic. I feel they could turn his dumbells into a AOE stun weapon to assist in mob fights with quality of dumbells expanding effected mob pool. Potentially stone could stun and kill non hostile/passive mobs such as birds and the grass lizards, Gold could stun low tier mobs such as spiders and bats whilst the gembell could work on higher tier mobs such as boss allies and/or pigs/merms. The punching of dumbells I feel is kinda useless and should probs do damage slightly below expected tier as they not tradiational weapons, with stone doing below spear, gold below battle spear and gem under spike (Less important then stun mechanic); Leaving the might gain in place since the recent hotfix. This would all help make the dumbells more useful as a weapon but as a team ulility as a crowd control mechanic/easier time killing annoying enemies.

 

3. Allow other players to use his dumbells as Gym equipment. I beleive other players should get Wolfgang lite buffs for a small but fair duration after working out with the dumbells. The effect should relate to the type of character with more mature/able bodied characters such as wigfrid, Wilson and Woodie getting a damage multiplier increase of about 25% (stacking in Wigfrids case) and child/physically weaker characters like Wendy and wickerbottom getting +25 to their overall hp pool. This would bring more reason for a group to add a Wolfgang to their roster but as an important sidenote the buffs don't allow any character to exceed Wolfgang's dps and hp pool through said buff (Not thinking Wanda as she is a glass tank) --> stopping people for picking the character to simply swap out later as much due to him being still very much useful in his assigned role.

 

4. Give Wolfgang minor perks to cement Strong man quality further + granting slightly improved utility. My first idea would be to give him a small sanity buff for each person watching his "strong man act" via working out. This would give him his own unique means to regain sanity whilst giving some bonus character flare on top. Another idea I heard from another individual on a beta branch thread was that Wolfgangs mighty battle prowess and godly physique while mighty should serve as an "inspiration" for Wigfrids own stage fighting preforming --> some increase to the inspiration multipler whilst fighting, which would make singing her songs quicker and easier to do. I particularly liked this idea as once again it improves upon his once non existent team play whilst also providing something nicely thematic. 

 

Hopefully Klei hears some of these suggestions like the harvesting buff but anyways to all the read the post...thanks for listening to my TED Talk."

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9 hours ago, EsaiXD said:

I think for sure this really hits the nail on the head

many wolfgang players i have seen have always been rather nomadic in their playstyle
so allowing them to gain might from actions allow you to keep that movement going.

I just wanted to add in this quote from @Mike23Ua

""WHY is his Might tied exclusively to Boss fights? I get that Klei wants him to be the best choice for boss fights as intended design: but there is so so much more being Mighty could do beyond just 2x damage. ""

I think this is what the direction the wolf update should be about. make him less of just a fighter and have him just be the strong man and have him do strong things.
And this forum post really delves deep into the apsects of that and really makes wolf feel more like his own character.

I also agree. I think the 2x damage is a bit much and uninteresting. Boss fights aren't as interesting as one character in particular is doing all the heavy lifting. Spread the combat bonus across multiple factors. Throw in some stuff not related to combat. We don't have a character that's good at hammering for example. Or what about tearing out diggables from the ground faster? Rowing and carrying heavy objects are two things, but they honestly don't get used all that much.

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Whilst mighty he should reel in fish faster, raise sails faster, raise anchors faster, he can already row hard might as well. I've thought of harvesting faster like he just yanks grass and twigs easier but also the shovel animation being speedier too but not too sure on those. Just anything that's an animation in general I feel like wolf could do better by somehow putting his strength into it.

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