[Game Update] - 490197

[reallychina]

46 minutes ago, Toros said:

If what you valued (and there is nothing wrong with this) is complexity and challenge then neither old nor new Wolf were going to be able to meet that value.  Old wolf was incredibly straightforward and while you could take on difficult challenges earlier, he inherently is not challenging to play.

“Wilson with a twist” is what Wolfgang was before because all he had were stat buffs for consuming more food.  

He’s now become something different.  It’s fair not to like it, as he now needs to take actions to specifically build mighty instead of just doing something everyone does (produce food) but more.

Mightiness out of combat was exclusively used for speed.  That is 100% of the utility it used to have that wasn’t related to combat.

It’s misleading to say he “lost all utility” when all he had for utility was speed to begin with.  He now can use marble armor with 0 penalty and harvest materials in 2/3 the time.  Rowing faster and carrying heavy items at 60% speed vs 15% speed are more niche and largely flavor perks.

For Wolf, marble armor is fantastic.  High durability, tied for highest damage reduction, and you can throw it on and still kite normally.  10 chops for large trees and 4 swings for a boulder with a pickaxe also can save you significant time.

Consistent double damage means items that do 51 damage now hit the 100 damage breakpoint which he couldn’t before.  The utility here is he can effectively use more items that used to fall short of important breakpoints. It used to be that for Wolf a tentacle spike was no better than a spear, because for a spider it was two hits to kill either way.  Now tentacle spikes/shield of terror will 1 shot elemental hounds and spiders consistently.

The complexity was racing against time and performing every action faster to be food efficient.

[Toroic]

1 hour ago, Cloakingsumo198 said:

Yeah, it still ain't as useful to me.  The speed boost did help that armour speed reduction already but it helped alot more too.  And I'd prefer to see his strength apply to more than just lifting and rowing. They added it to harvesting but there is still areas it can apply to in terms of niche gameplay.

Yes, speed was the only utility for mighty but when it was taken away the only replacement we we're given was armour and rowing.  Wolf should just have "speed" when interacting with simple intense labouring in general it can be interpreted as working harder or putting more MUSCLE into it..

If you were expecting changes equivalent in power to an easy to maintain speed boost I understand why you’re dissatisfied.   What I don’t understand is why you thought Klei would only buff a character who has historically been mechanically above the rest.

42 minutes ago, reallychina said:

The complexity was racing against time and performing every action faster to be food efficient.

that is neither complexity nor Wolfgang specific. Any character can race against time, and you always benefit from being efficient. Wanda has more complex mechanics, as does woodie.  Wes is more difficult.  Wormwood has an easy to maintain speed boost.

[Cloakingsumo198]

3 minutes ago, Toros said:

If you were expecting changes equivalent in power to an easy to maintain speed boost I understand why you’re dissatisfied.   What I don’t understand is why you thought Klei would only buff a character who has historically been mechanically above the rest.

that is neither complexity nor Wolfgang specific. Any character can race against time, and you always benefit from being efficient. Wanda has more complex mechanics, as does woodie.  Wes is more difficult.  Wormwood has an easy to maintain speed boost.

I never cared for speed running toros, don't confuse me with the other wolfgang mains I've debated for. I just don't see where our trade in is equal for what we've gained as an alternative, I was looking forward to this rework to make a more interesting gameplay style but wolf isn't different and what hurts ME the most is the lost of his old style of always working to upkeep himself made me feel I had to constantly gather/fight/explore or else I would be reduced to atrophy.

[Toroic]

17 minutes ago, Cloakingsumo198 said:

I never cared for speed running toros, don't confuse me with the other wolfgang mains I've debated for. I just don't see where our trade in is equal for what we've gained as an alternative, I was looking forward to this rework to make a more interesting gameplay style but wolf isn't different and what hurts ME the most is the lost of his old style of always working to upkeep himself made me feel I had to constantly gather/fight/explore or else I would be reduced to atrophy.

How can he both not be different and also lost most of his old style?

Old wolfgang was capable of sustaining mighty entirely through foraging from day 1, and many players did so.

Now, gyms create areas of control where becoming mighty is cheaper than before in terms of time and effort (assuming a fully loaded gym) but as you get further away you need to rely on dumbbells and for mighty particularly the gembell.

Gyms aren’t entirely stationary either, they can be built on boats and you can row or sail them around, and probably would for lunar/pearl exploration.

This is a very different approach where Wolf required no prep for anything beyond the equipment wilson would use and additional food and in practice you gave up nothing.

With all the passive food production options (bee box, cactus, kelp, stonefruit) and especially after RWYS old wolf didn’t have to actually be aggressive to maintain mighty form.  He still rewards aggressive play now, but there’s more setup to use his power.

[HowlVoid]

The one-hit thing should be 5% imo. 1% is kind of a joke perk... Not even Wes got joke perks.

Edited December 16, 2021 by HowlVoid

[Monkey Cups]

18 hours ago, Cloakingsumo198 said:

YOU don't care about how Wolfgang plays in game, but all these small details are what makes or breaks the tempo of a character's gameplay loop. If it's not fun or rewarding then what's the point, if it makes sense thematically, and you believe it's interesting in game, you still have to TWEAK it to make it feel fluid and integrate SEAMLESSLY.

I do care, and new Wolfgang is more fun for me than the old one. If I didn't care I wouldn't be reading these threads at all.

[reallychina]

1 hour ago, Toros said:

If you were expecting changes equivalent in power to an easy to maintain speed boost I understand why you’re dissatisfied.   What I don’t understand is why you thought Klei would only buff a character who has historically been mechanically above the rest.

that is neither complexity nor Wolfgang specific. Any character can race against time, and you always benefit from being efficient. Wanda has more complex mechanics, as does woodie.  Wes is more difficult.  Wormwood has an easy to maintain speed boost.

no character suffered from NOT being efficient with food. this was a wolfgang specific deal. it was the equivalent of throwing food away

 

any character can race is like saying any car can race. Yes, but the fun is going really fast, that's why people play Grand Turismo, Need for Speed, get the fast cars in GTA instead of riding a family wagon as fast as possible

Edited December 16, 2021 by reallychina

[ArubaroBeefalo]

27 minutes ago, HowlVoid said:

The one-hit thing should be 5% imo. 1% is kind of a joke perk... Not even Wes got joke perks.

or expanded to everything

[QuartzBeam]

28 minutes ago, HowlVoid said:

The one-hit thing should be 5% imo. 1% is kind of a joke perk... Not even Wes got joke perks.

It's 1% chance per swing, which adds up pretty fast.

For example, the chance it will trigger while chopping a tall tree is ~10%.

[ArubaroBeefalo]

1 minute ago, QuartzBeam said:

It's 1% chance per swing, which adds up pretty fast.

For example, the chance it will trigger while chopping a tall tree is ~10%.

i dont want to convert this topic into another math class arena but do chances add in that way? wouldnt be just 1% per hit which means that you have 10 tries at 1%? just curious because my maths sucks since i was 16years old i dont have a math class 

[reallychina]

4 minutes ago, QuartzBeam said:

It's 1% chance per swing, which adds up pretty fast.

For example, the chance it will trigger while chopping a tall tree is ~10%.

well yes but the value of crit hitting it on last or previous chop is lower so it's not 10%

Edited December 16, 2021 by reallychina

[HowlVoid]

12 minutes ago, QuartzBeam said:

It's 1% chance per swing, which adds up pretty fast.

For example, the chance it will trigger while chopping a tall tree is ~10%.

That's not maf works I'm afraid. What you have is several instances of 1%.

14 minutes ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

or expanded to everything

Yeah if it was for mobs too (not bosses of course) would be better.

Edited December 16, 2021 by HowlVoid

[Hornete]

20 minutes ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

i dont want to convert this topic into another math class arena but do chances add in that way? wouldnt be just 1% per hit which means that you have 10 tries at 1%? just curious because my maths sucks since i was 16years old i dont have a math class 

I believe it's a 14% chance for a tall evergreen(15 chops).

I got this number through 0.99(the chance of NOT getting a crit) to the power of 15, which gave me ~0.86 or so, which is the chance of NOT getting a 1% crit, so 14%.

 

I feel like I did something wrong there but I'm trying my best xD, Maybe I should be doing 0.99 to the power of 14 since the last chop would be useless for a crit(?)

 

Edit: Okay 15 chops is for a normal character, but Wolfgang ofc works faster, LOL I'm an idiot hold on

Okay, 0.99 to the power of 10 gives us ~0.904, so a %9.96 of getting a crit on a tall tree?

Edited December 16, 2021 by Hornete

[HowlVoid]

I guess technically within 100 swings and 10 trees you have a 10% chance to fell a tree among 10 trees, but with how random probability is (and my personal experience with games that use chance) it's less reliable than that.

The real issue though is when among those 10 chops per tree the tree will actually break. After 6+ swings the 1% triggering is less useful as we saw people felling the tree on the last chop (completely useless). 5% will help it trigger more reliably and more practically. 

Edited December 16, 2021 by HowlVoid

[ArubaroBeefalo]

4 minutes ago, Hornete said:

I believe it's a 14% chance for a tall evergreen(15 chops).

I got this number through 0.99(the chance of NOT getting a crit) to the power of 15, which gave me ~0.86 or so, which is the chance of NOT getting a 1% crit, so 14%.

 

I feel like I did something wrong there but I'm trying my best xD, Maybe I should be doing 0.99 to the power of 14 since the last chop would be useless for a crit(?)

 

Edit: Okay 15 chops is for a normal character, but Wolfgang ofc works faster, LOL I'm an idiot hold on

Okay, 0.99 to the power of 10 gives us ~0.904, so a %9.96 of getting a crit on a tall tree?

[Toroic]

22 minutes ago, Hornete said:

I believe it's a 14% chance for a tall evergreen(15 chops).

I got this number through 0.99(the chance of NOT getting a crit) to the power of 15, which gave me ~0.86 or so, which is the chance of NOT getting a 1% crit, so 14%.

 

I feel like I did something wrong there but I'm trying my best xD, Maybe I should be doing 0.99 to the power of 14 since the last chop would be useless for a crit(?)

 

Edit: Okay 15 chops is for a normal character, but Wolfgang ofc works faster, LOL I'm an idiot hold on

Okay, 0.99 to the power of 10 gives us ~0.904, so a %9.96 of getting a crit on a tall tree?

So basically 10%, though you won’t notice if it’s the last chop, so more like 9% chance of saving at least one chop on a tree.  Boulders take 4 hits, so 3% chance of saving one or more hits.

[HowlVoid]

Actually I don't know what I was smoking 5% is like every other tree lmao.

2% would reliably trigger between swings 1-5. Anyone who has played monster hunter or binding of Isaac know that an extra 1% makes a world of a difference.

41 minutes ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

You should see Hornete whenever she tries to teach me math at home 

 

Edited December 16, 2021 by HowlVoid

[ludial000]

.01 chance to fell a tree in one hit. Assuming the 10 hits for a tall tree, if you get it in the first try, you save 9 chops, if you get it in the second try, you save 8 chops... in the 9th try, 1 chop.

Chance to get the crit in the 1st hit: 1%

2nd hit: 99% * 1%

3rd hit: 99% * 99% * 1%

etc

For 10 hits (tall tree), you're expected to save, on average, 0.4338254258716445 swings every tree.
For 2% crit chance and tall tree, 0.8365675374897976.

For a rock (4 hits): 0.05900499, on average 1 saved hit every 17 rocks.

With 2%, this turns into 0.11603983999999999, almost double (it's always going to be almost double).

 

What does this mean? You're unlikely to notice a big difference with those crits unless you're chopping a lot of trees.

Python code below

Spoiler

sum = 0
total = 10
chance = .01
for i in range(1, total):
    sum += (total - i)*((1-chance)**i)*(chance)
print(sum)

 

Edited December 16, 2021 by ludial000
I'm bad at programming

[bcbilly]

I think it would be cool if they made him faster in his wimpy form making kiting easier as well as exploration at the expensive of his already weakened damage and defense. It only makes sense a dude with bulking muscles slows down a bit compared to someone a tad lighter.

Edited December 20, 2021 by bcbilly

[ArubaroBeefalo]

5 hours ago, bcbilly said:

I think it would be cool if they made him faster in his wimpy form making kiting easier as well as exploration at the expensive of his already weakened damage and defense. It only makes sense a dude with bulking muscles slows down a bit compared to someone a tad lighter.

wimpy form means that he didnt exercises so it wouldn't have sense (and gameplay value) if he is speedy than in mighty or fit form

[elthodoido]

On 12/16/2021 at 7:20 PM, ludial000 said:

sum = 0
total = 10
chance = .01
for i in range(1, total):
    sum += (total - i)*((1-chance)**i)*(chance)
print(sum)

Hello, very good approach on the calculations. I might be wrong, but i feel like we still need to take the mean value, like divide the summations by 10 (on trees) or by 4 (on rocks)?

Edit: Nevermind you're right, but for:

i=1 → (10-i)*((0.99^1)*(0.01) = 9*99%*1%

When it should be:

i=1 → 9*1%

Make it:

sum += (total - i)*((1-chance)**(i-1))*(chance)

 

Edited December 20, 2021 by elthodoido