Lifting weights feels like a break in the gameplay

[0xF741B84C]

On 12/12/2021 at 12:26 AM, fsp98 said:

It's not quite the easy mode you were used to, but it's still okay.

What do you mean by easy mode? The new lifting isn't easier nor more difficult, it's just different but in questionable way since it requires you to stand still thus wasting time. I don't know, this change seems kinda wrong to me since Wolfgang is so... how to put it... actionful character? You can do so SO much with him and save plenty of time if played right. Don't get me wrong, I'm not at all against of the changes, I quite like what they were going for. I like how you can upgrade your gym, I like how it is implemented in form of minigame, and I don't mind the might being locked behind science/magic. I just don't like the idea that with the best option you still have to be put still for more than five seconds whereas before you just clicked food and muscles goes brrr...

  

18 hours ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

2 seconds plus picking the food and cooking it

Well, yes, I guess, but my point was that you can store might in food and apply it quickly whenever you needed it. E.g., hound/worm wave. And I think that hunting for food is more fun than standing still.

[Cloakingsumo198]

35 minutes ago, 0xF741B84C said:

What do you mean by easy mode? The new lifting isn't easier nor more difficult, it's just different but in questionable way since it requires you to stand still thus wasting time. I don't know, this change seems kinda wrong to me since Wolfgang is so... how to put it... actionful character? You can do so SO much with him and save plenty of time if played right. Don't get me wrong, I'm not at all against of the changes, I quite like what they were going for. I like how you can upgrade your gym, I like how it is implemented in form of minigame, and I don't mind the might being locked behind science/magic. I just don't like the idea that with the best option you still have to be put still for more than five seconds whereas before you just clicked food and muscles goes brrr...

  

Well, yes, I guess, but my point was that you can store might in food and apply it quickly whenever you needed it. E.g., hound/worm wave. And I think that hunting for food is more fun than standing still.

I understand you completely Wolfgang was always working because he had to offset staying in mighty to enjoy his buffs. Even if was just going out to gather, I still had plenty of time to hunt things or pick a few veggies to keep me sustained off the land and still buffed up. While I kill more things, gather or chop/mine. I ate more resources up for this speed but I got more done in a day and that's the Wolfgang way.  Staying in mighty form was natural, the speed boost was icing on top and you were always ready for action. The only time I would let myself starve was hanging around at base or talking to the other players while doing nothing so i don't waste resources or just for the lolz cause puny Wolfgang  

A good Wolfgang has standards be polite, be efficient, and have a plan to kill everyone you meet.

4 minutes ago, Cloakingsumo198 said:

 

 

[Mike23Ua]

Curious question for people who main Wolfgang, how did he fair interacting with any/all of the Return of Them Content (Aka Boat related stuff out at sea..) As OLD Wolfgang VS Reworked Wolfgang? I would imagine that getting and staying mighty is easier since you can idle on the boat pumping dumbells where as Pre-Rework you would be out at sea with little to actually eat out there to stay constantly mighty right?

[BeeClops]

2 hours ago, Mike23Ua said:

Curious question for people who main Wolfgang, how did he fair interacting with any/all of the Return of Them Content (Aka Boat related stuff out at sea..) As OLD Wolfgang VS Reworked Wolfgang? I would imagine that getting and staying mighty is easier since you can idle on the boat pumping dumbells where as Pre-Rework you would be out at sea with little to actually eat out there to stay constantly mighty right?

Doesn't make a much of a difference in general, but faster rowing is pretty cool for navigating sea stacks or the first pearl/lunar trips. 

Wolfgang mains never had problems having excess food, they wouldn't be Wolfgang mains if they did. 

As for the lifting weights mechanic, I think it's all right, not great.

I'm trying my best to like the new Wolfgang, but I still think the pre rework one was much more fun. The extra speed is the best perk he had, it's what allowed alternative strategies in combat, and the food to might method suited him well. Not saying liftin weights doesn't fit, but it was good before too.  

Sure having 2x constand damage, 1.2x constant speed, plus no penalty for heavy objects would be too much. But I think most of the people who played him would take his former self over the reworked version, which I think is a big deal; I'd take 1,5x damage, 1,2x speed and no other benefits over reworked Wolfgang. 

[0xF741B84C]

10 hours ago, Cloakingsumo198 said:

A good Wolfgang has standards be polite, be efficient, and have a plan to kill everyone you meet.

[fsp98]

19 hours ago, Mike23Ua said:

passively lifted by Wolfgang as you walk around with it equipped in your hand slot

I agree with adding being able to lift while walking. Hell, you can even give him like 5-10% lower speed while doing so, just make it so he can move. That ought to silence some of the wolfgang mains.

[Mike23Ua]

24 minutes ago, fsp98 said:

I agree with adding being able to lift while walking. Hell, you can even give him like 5-10% lower speed while doing so, just make it so he can move. That ought to silence some of the wolfgang mains.

I wouldn’t even lower his walking speed, you still need to have it in his hand slot while walking with it.. and the biggest complaint I see about it is you need to stand still to pump them.

Standing still isn’t fun.. It would also “Passively” scale Wolfgang to Mighty form as you walk about just doing stuff.

Sure he isn’t flying around the map at the speed of flash, but from what I can gather: That was an accidental perk they gave him anyway, in DS Solo it didn’t matter because it was a Single player game: But in DST I always wondered why my friends playing Wolfgang ended up getting lost from me- until I played him and found out: Free speed for just putting a few carrots in mouth.

You realistically couldn’t keep up with a Wolfgang, and even though PVP is overlooked: it’s still an actual game mode offering within Klei’s game and should at the minimal have just a tiny bit of Balance to be somewhat enjoyable to the few players who actually play PvP mode.

Here let me explain: If you play PvP and your against a Wendy or Wurt all you need to do is roam around the map looking for her stationary Sisturn, or Wurts stationary Merm king and destroy them to “Weakin” Wendy/Wurt: There simply was no way to EVER Weakin Wolfgang: Now there is: By finding and burning his Gym to slow his might gains.

Once in direct confrontation: You could just kill Abigail from a distance with projectiles and then proceed to murder that Wendy & steal her flower. With Wolfgang, He no longer has the advantage of moving faster.. and hitting like being ran over by a tank.

In fact if you can destroy his Gym and kill him stealing his Dumbell making it harder for him to climb back to Mighty again.

Yes DST isn’t designed as a PvP game- But it’s still a game option offered to you.

As far as it killing how Wolfgang plays: I don’t really know what to say about that, or how Klei can possibly please everyone with his rework.

I will most certainly enjoy watching how this ends though & what they decide to “finalize” for him.

[fsp98]

9 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

I wouldn’t even lower his walking speed, you still need to have it in his hand slot while walking with it.. and the biggest complaint I see about it is you need to stand still to pump them.

Standing still isn’t fun.. It would also “Passively” scale Wolfgang to Mighty form as you walk about just doing stuff.

Just did some maths.

I think that even if you have to stand still, it makes gyms irrelevant in the endgame. You can just move around, lifting a gembell for ~13 seconds per day, nowhere near any gyms, indefinitely and be fine. You just need enough crafting materials. One gembell gets you ~12.6 days of mightiness if you eat right, so that costs you only ~5.5 purple gems per year. You can most likely get that from hound drops alone. And as far as I know, dumbells don't even speed up hunger or need any complicated setups.

As of now, 6 gems per year get you moving quite a bit already. But I agree that standing still isn't really fun. I'd say that 5%/15%/40% speed debuff (for the different dumbells) while lifting is totally justified.

Also, if you could go full speed while lifting, refilling mightiness would be kind of easy during long fights.

[Mike23Ua]

Wait do the dumbells lose durability over time? I thought they were items you craft once then can use for on the go Mightiness (I’m not in the Beta branch so I can only base my opinions on what I’ve seen/heard) I was under the impression that they only lose durability when thrown as projectiles.

They probably shouldn’t lose durability over time.. NONE of Wanda’s clocks do, that’s just unfair..

[ArubaroBeefalo]

2 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

Wait do the dumbells lose durability over time? I thought they were items you craft once then can use for on the go Mightiness (I’m not in the Beta branch so I can only base my opinions on what I’ve seen/heard) I was under the impression that they only lose durability when thrown as projectiles.

They probably shouldn’t lose durability over time.. NONE of Wanda’s clocks do, that’s just unfair..

they are cheap lel

[fsp98]

2 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

Wait do the dumbells lose durability over time? I thought they were items you craft once then can use for on the go Mightiness (I’m not in the Beta branch so I can only base my opinions on what I’ve seen/heard) I was under the impression that they only lose durability when thrown as projectiles.

They probably shouldn’t lose durability over time.. NONE of Wanda’s clocks do, that’s just unfair..

I haven't played it myself, but I've seen some videos. They do.

[Mike23Ua]

1 minute ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

they are cheap lel

Maybe but consider that prior to rework Wolfgang didn’t need to go through all that effort to be mighty, so once earned he should keep them, fair trade off I think- And only when used as weapons (Melee or thrown) go down in durability.

[ArubaroBeefalo]

4 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

Maybe but consider that prior to rework Wolfgang didn’t need to go through all that effort to be mighty, so once earned he should keep them, fair trade off I think- And only when used as weapons (Melee or thrown) go down in durability.

1 gem vs many calories

if they dont have durability then you dont have to worry about anything, it makes no sense with how it works

[GenomeSquirrel]

Honestly part of me does want to scrap the gym, give the dumbbells infinite durability, combine the gym effects into the bells, even skill checks into certain ones, Wolfgang is already paying for the benefit with food, I don’t think the additional costs are needed.

[fsp98]

5 minutes ago, GenomeSquirrel said:

Honestly part of me does want to scrap the gym, give the dumbbells infinite durability, combine the gym effects into the bells, even skill checks into certain ones, Wolfgang is already paying for the benefit with food, I don’t think the additional costs are needed.

I belive his hunger works at a default rate now, except for when he's using the gym. He just needs to be at least helf-full to enjoy the benefits of mightiness.

[GLERMZ]

On 12/11/2021 at 4:14 PM, fsp98 said:

If you look at the numbers and the GIF in the technical post, you can see it takes 15 seconds to get 100 might with the best equipment. Not minutes! And you stay mighty for longer. And you can have dumbells.

I personally think this is a great addition, aside from having to pay attention to another meter, and I'm seriously considering playing Wolfgang again.

I love the "can stay mighty for longer" i used stay mighty for as much time as i wanted without needing as much downtime as you do now. (edit: forgot to metion that with food was also much easier to go might ON THE GO as they stated with the dumbell  Apperently there is this Idea that people actually played normal and wimpy gang. I think people just bad at having tons of food? (if so Wolfgang was not for them) Only time i spend not mighty for over 1000 days is when i'm building and doing base designs/turf, because the majority of time, being full time mighty was NOT an issue. For some reason people still think this new Mighty form is a buff, just because they didnt actually fully played Wolfgang to his max. 

With that said, i'm perfectly fine with the new Mighty meter, even if the dumbells feel very weak, specially early game. I can still understand the concept and make it more obvious for new players. But that wasn't the only change, and it should have been the only in my opinion, regarding nerfs.

But honestly people need to stop saying that this new Mighty Meter is a buff and that and the 2x damage is too, when any respectable wolfgang was 1.94+ all the time. The constant 2x is barely noticable by those who kept him up. To the point that until this day i sometimes eat taffy as Wanda because of how used to i got over the years to eat food at stay maxed at every little break  

[Cloakingsumo198]

19 minutes ago, GLERMZ said:

I love the "can stay mighty for longer" i used stay mighty for as much time as i wanted without needing as much downtime as you do now. (edit: forgot to metion that with food was also much easier to go might ON THE GO as they stated with the dumbell  Apperently there is this Idea that people actually played normal and wimpy gang. I think people just bad at having tons of food? (if so Wolfgang was not for them) Only time i spend not mighty for over 1000 days is when i'm building and doing base designs/turf, because the majority of time, being full time mighty was NOT an issue. For some reason people still think this new Mighty form is a buff, just because they didnt actually fully played Wolfgang to his max. 

With that said, i'm perfectly fine with the new Mighty meter, even if the dumbells feel very weak, specially early game. I can still understand the concept and make it more obvious for new players. But that wasn't the only change, and it should have been the only in my opinion, regarding nerfs.

But honestly people need to stop saying that this new Mighty Meter is a buff and that and the 2x damage is too, when any respectable wolfgang was 1.94+ all the time. The constant 2x is barely noticable by those who kept him up. To the point that until this day i sometimes eat taffy as Wanda because of how used to i got over the years to eat food at stay maxed at every little break  

Wolfgang's natural state was mighty if you were good enough most people didn't see a reason to power down since it could be easily sustained and you had some actual utility to the form not just punching faces in, and there has never been any reason except saving resources to power down to the other forms.  The weights pause the momentum and you are doing something aside from exploring/fighting/gathering Wolfgangs going out gathered and fought to naturally sustain that power you just played the game intensively to keep fueling the huge man cause when you stopped he gets weaker, and keeps draining your food.

[Juny Pear]

25 minutes ago, GLERMZ said:

I love the "can stay mighty for longer" i used stay mighty for as much time as i wanted without needing as much downtime as you do now. (edit: forgot to metion that with food was also much easier to go might ON THE GO as they stated with the dumbell  Apperently there is this Idea that people actually played normal and wimpy gang. I think people just bad at having tons of food? (if so Wolfgang was not for them) Only time i spend not mighty for over 1000 days is when i'm building and doing base designs/turf, because the majority of time, being full time mighty was NOT an issue. For some reason people still think this new Mighty form is a buff, just because they didnt actually fully played Wolfgang to his max. 

With that said, i'm perfectly fine with the new Mighty meter, even if the dumbells feel very weak, specially early game. I can still understand the concept and make it more obvious for new players. But that wasn't the only change, and it should have been the only in my opinion, regarding nerfs.

But honestly people need to stop saying that this new Mighty Meter is a buff and that and the 2x damage is too, when any respectable wolfgang was 1.94+ all the time. The constant 2x is barely noticable by those who kept him up. To the point that until this day i sometimes eat taffy as Wanda because of how used to i got over the years to eat food at stay maxed at every little break  

With all due respect for you as a player and person, I can't help but feel you're over dramatizing a little bit.

Yes it is a bit slower to build mightiness compared to before (and I do think the rate at which you gain it from dumbbells for instance should be adjusted), however it's not nearly as bad as you make it out to be, especially if you do stay at full hunger (like you would have anyways).

The point people bring up of him staying mighty for longer is not immediately nullified by being able to just slam food in the past endlessly and keeping your mighty up like that, especially in regards to being able to regain mightiness mid-fight, since if you're actually using the gembells and keep your hunger full, you're gonna be retaining mightiness for pretty much just as long as you would've when just eating healing food during a fight. At full hunger and mightiness you're gonna be staying mighty for pretty much a whole day, and I heavily doubt that Wolfgang of all characters would struggle to take down a boss in the span of a day whilst eating and potentially even having time to use a gembell.

[Mike23Ua]

14 minutes ago, Cloakingsumo198 said:

Wolfgang's natural state was mighty if you were good enough most people didn't see a reason to power down since it could be easily sustained and you had some actual utility to the form not just punching faces in, and there has never been any reason except saving resources to power down to the other forms.  The weights pause the momentum and you are doing something aside from exploring/fighting/gathering Wolfgangs going out gathered and fought to naturally sustain that power you just played the game intensively to keep fueling the huge man cause when you stopped he gets weaker, and keeps draining your food.

This is pretty much my perspective on him as well, only people who were absurdly good at playing as him were only ever kept in tip top 24/7 Mighty form- Making the character pure HELL for anyone who couldn’t stay in tip top 24/7 Mighty form.. With the Rework it will be easier for even casuals to get and stay atleast in “Default” stance So overall- I think the rework is more welcoming to people wanting to pick up and play him, while at the same time: being far removed from what he originally was designed as (a god tier character with movement speed that STACKED with other movement speed items making him virtually impossible to ever be hit by anything, that hit with more damage so he was finishing all fights faster anyway, and drained through hunger worse then Wes’s original bottomless stomach)

If I’m wrong on that assumption: someone please enlighten me. But if we are talking exclusively about making Wolfgang more welcoming to Casuals- which one wins???

Old Wolfgang VS Rework Wolfgang?

[Cloakingsumo198]

2 minutes ago, Nettalie said:

With all due respect for you as a player and person, I can't help but feel you're over dramatizing a little bit.

Yes it is a bit slower to build mightiness compared to before (and I do think the rate at which you gain it from dumbbells for instance should be adjusted), however it's not nearly as bad as you make it out to be, especially if you do stay at full hunger (like you would have anyways).

The point people bring up of him staying mighty for longer is not immediately nullified by being able to just slam food in the past endlessly and keeping your mighty up like that, especially in regards to being able to regain mightiness mid-fight, since if you're actually using the gembells and keep your hunger full, you're gonna be retaining mightiness for pretty much just as long as you would've when just eating healing food during a fight. At full hunger and mightiness you're gonna be staying mighty for pretty much a whole day, and I heavily doubt that Wolfgang of all characters would struggle to take down a boss in the span of a day whilst eating and potentially even having time to use a gembell.

Using dumbbell to reach mighty form is fine, having the dumbbell and gym as the only things that affects your mighty gain is not, have other smaller tasks that wolf does naturally either slightly add might meter or slows it's drain.

I'm sure most Wolfgang's bring up eating food easily, cause it's something you did naturally in game, it was second hand nature cause you still has to eat even if you didn't want to be mighty. You didn't go out of your way to have do something different it was integrated into regular gameplay

Food determines the drain speed and that makes sense.

[GLERMZ]

10 minutes ago, Nettalie said:

With all due respect for you as a player and person, I can't help but feel you're over dramatizing a little bit.

Yes it is a bit slower to build mightiness compared to before (and I do think the rate at which you gain it from dumbbells for instance should be adjusted), however it's not nearly as bad as you make it out to be, especially if you do stay at full hunger (like you would have anyways).

The point people bring up of him staying mighty for longer is not immediately nullified by being able to just slam food in the past endlessly and keeping your mighty up like that, especially in regards to being able to regain mightiness mid-fight, since if you're actually using the gembells and keep your hunger full, you're gonna be retaining mightiness for pretty much just as long as you would've when just eating healing food during a fight. At full hunger and mightiness you're gonna be staying mighty for pretty much a whole day, and I heavily doubt that Wolfgang of all characters would struggle to take down a boss in the span of a day whilst eating and potentially even having time to use a gembell.

Is this regarding to what exacly that i said? My post just stated that the new Might Mechanics are not a buff in anyway to how Mighty worked before to someone who new how to fully play Wolfgang. Thats just a fact. Your opinion can be different than mine, you can prefer this method over the previous, it can even make more sense as theme and i'm not saying it doesn work, but its still worse than the previous way, period. That is not being dramatic btw, that simply is having a different prespective and gameplay than you

Anyway i'm off, i actually came here by accident to read on another topic and couldn't help myself but to do one reply and already on a second. There will be no point. Change him don't change him i really don't care, but this Wolfgang is a weaker version of him and that is just a fact. Wether people like it or not. Which is ironic, since he only wants to get Stronger...

[Juny Pear]

5 minutes ago, GLERMZ said:

Is this regarding to what exacly that i said? My post just stated that the new Might Mechanics are not a buff in anyway to how Mighty worked before to someone who new how to fully play Wolfgang. Thats just a fact. Your opinion can be different than mine, you can prefer this method over the previous, it can even make more sense as theme and i'm not saying it doesn work, but its still worse than the previous way, period. That is not being dramatic btw, that simply is having a different prespective and gameplay than you

Anyway i'm off, i actually came here by accident to read on another topic and couldn't help myself but to do one reply and already on a second. There will be no point. Change him don't change him i really don't care, but this Wolfgang is a weaker version of him and that is just a fact. Wether people like it or not. Which is ironic, since he only wants to get Stronger...

Saying "this is not being dramatic" right after saying "this is still worse than the previous way, period" as if it's a fact is 
not how a different perspective and "gameplay" from somebody else works.

I am fine with people having different opinions, but what I am not fine with is getting up on a high horse, saying "if you didn't play the character exactly like others did, you're bad" and pretending as if this all is a matter of things being "factually" worse and then when someone says something about it you try being defensive and say "it's all just a different opinion".

You're contradicting yourself here and pretending like what you say is 100% correct even though we're talking about opinions.

11 minutes ago, Cloakingsumo198 said:

Using dumbbell to reach mighty form is fine, having the dumbbell and gym as the only things that affects your mighty gain is not, have other smaller tasks that wolf does naturally either slightly add might meter or slows it's drain.

I'm sure most Wolfgang's bring up eating food easily, cause it's something you did naturally in game, it was second hand nature cause you still has to eat even if you didn't want to be mighty. You didn't go out of your way to have do something different it was integrated into regular gameplay

Food determines the drain speed and that makes sense.

Honestly it would be pretty neat to have more ways to slow or regain mightiness.

I just brought up food because people get so caught up in not being able to JUST eat now, when eating still matters a lot for Wolfgang (just as much as mightiness in my eyes.)

[ArubaroBeefalo]

is lovely to see people forgeting that not all the player base plays in a private server with all the resources for theirselfs

maybe isnt a buff but a QoL, specially for pubs

same should be done to Wx and gears even if in private servers there is more gears that one can waste

i dont play pubs so i cant be less biased about this

[Cloakingsumo198]

3 minutes ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

is lovely to see people forgeting that not all the player base plays in a private server with all the resources for theirselfs

maybe isnt a buff but a QoL, specially for pubs

same should be done to Wx and gears even if in private servers there is more gears that one can waste

i dont play pubs so i cant be less biased about this

I would always play pubs enless the Wolfgang is only taking from your group and not giving back most good Wolfgangs i know always brought gifts when returning home

[GLERMZ]

16 minutes ago, Nettalie said:

Saying "this is not being dramatic" right after saying "this is still worse than the previous way, period" as if it's a fact is 
not how a different perspective and "gameplay" from somebody else works.

I am fine with people having different opinions, but what I am not fine with is getting up on a high horse, saying "if you didn't play the character exactly like others did, you're bad" and pretending as if this all is a matter of things being "factually" worse and then when someone says something about it you try being defensive and say "it's all just a different opinion".

You're contradicting yourself here and pretending like what you say is 100% correct even though we're talking about opinions.

Honestly it would be pretty neat to have more ways to slow or regain mightiness.

I just brought up food because people get so caught up in not being able to JUST eat now, when eating still matters a lot for Wolfgang (just as much as mightiness in my eyes.)

Nettalie sorry that i made you feel like i was calling you or anyone a bad player by stating what i did. You can be good at character without ever excel at it. I myself can play any character but i'm pretty sure plenty of people here will be better than me in several of them. Because in the end pratice makes perfection so i get to be a little bit more precise based on what i have more experience with, even if that is not the experience of the average Joe, is still what i will base my statements in. What i could achieve before with, and what can i achieve with now and draw the conclusions from it. 

You are right, SOME things are not factually worse, in this case Mighty, but they are are not factually better either. Goes both ways.

Have a great rest of night. Thanks for the chat, i will have to go now