Lifting weights feels like a break in the gameplay

[Yuuko]

On 12/11/2021 at 8:29 AM, IanKSB91 said:

Yeah I thought we could use them while moving, but apparently no.

This was what I expected.  If they slowed you, but increased mighty as you moved, and at mighty they stopped slowing you b/c of the Mighty anti-slow perk, that would smooth out really well.

6 hours ago, Mike23Ua said:

With the Rework it will be easier for even casuals to get and stay atleast in “Default” stance So overall- I think the rework is more welcoming to people wanting to pick up and play him

I think previous Wolfgang was better for new players.  Food is more naturally interacted with, so a player will naturally see how they gain mighty, and default to wimpy if they starve.  The combat perks require less forethought, a new player could easily chuck some meatballs, berries, carrots, etc and get might in an instant.  You also have both the speed, making it easier to kite as well as the extra tankiness.  There was a high skill cap on maximizing Wolfgang, but it wasn't a bad character for a new player to get into.  The memes of a Wolfgang emptying the fridge are real, but that didn't mean he was bad for the player as Wolfgang, it just meant the entire camp *might* pay his penalty for having him around.

I don't think the new one is nearly as intuitive.  The stone dumbbell is actually horrible for getting you into normal, and you'll waste a lot of time burning that bell without netting any positive effect for your time.  Even the gold one is garbage because it only maintains normal form.  Being normal is no reward, you're basically playing Wilson with a downside.  Until you set up science and get his gym you're basically cursed to wimpy form, where a new player is dealing less damage and taking more.  Upgrading the statues on the gym isn't explained in the game, so while they can take off the potato sacks they might not realize they can upgrade them to statues.  Even once they do the hunger still factors into mighty drain, so if they aren't doing all of the hunger management from oldWolfgang which is made significantly less obvious being an indirect factor, they'll still drain from mighty quickly.  To upkeep mighty they'll need to get into magic tab, and unless they've learned the hunger game, they'll melt through their purple gems...

imo the new one is 100% requiring you read the wiki and know the game already.  If I played this game as a new player, saw Wolfgang "the strongman" on character select and picked them to start the game with, I guarantee I would be wimpy from spawn to death and wonder why I got this weak character instead of the one I picked...

[fsp98]

11 hours ago, Cloakingsumo198 said:

I would always play pubs enless the Wolfgang is only taking from your group and not giving back most good Wolfgangs i know always brought gifts when returning home

I mean if you empty the fridge and come back with fuelweaver drops, that kind of ruins the game for others anyway. You could just play singleplayer anyway with that playstyle, as you're clearly a skilled player. But I always find it MUCH more satisfying and fun when you have to work as a team to kill bosses and get better gear. This nerf is a slight attempt to fix the loneliness and OP'ness wolfgangs tend to, but we definitely need more team-based perks for him still.

[Cloakingsumo198]

6 minutes ago, fsp98 said:

I mean if you empty the fridge and come back with fuelweaver drops, that kind of ruins the game for others anyway. You could just play singleplayer anyway with that playstyle, as you're clearly a skilled player. But I always find it MUCH more satisfying and fun when you have to work as a team to kill bosses and get better gear. This nerf is a slight attempt to fix the loneliness and OP'ness wolfgangs tend to, but we definitely need more team-based perks for him still.

Good luck killing the fuel weaver in a random pub team lol. Most pub people don't even know how to fight deerclops cause it's babies first winter.  Don't get me wrong I think it's fun to guide new players to victory that after all makes them wanna keep playing.  But most people don't even know how to get to midgame let alone lategame.  And the average life cycle of a pub generally doesn't get past midwinter.  So that really doesn't concern many people of course the most courteous thing to do if you are heading to kill a boss or go underground is offer if anyone wants to come with.

[Toroic]

5 hours ago, GLERMZ said:

Nettalie sorry that i made you feel like i was calling you or anyone a bad player by stating what i did. You can be good at character without ever excel at it. I myself can play any character but i'm pretty sure plenty of people here will be better than me in several of them. Because in the end pratice makes perfection so i get to be a little bit more precise based on what i have more experience with, even if that is not the experience of the average Joe, is still what i will base my statements in. What i could achieve before with, and what can i achieve with now and draw the conclusions from it. 

You are right, SOME things are not factually worse, in this case Mighty, but they are are not factually better either. Goes both ways.

Have a great rest of night. Thanks for the chat, i will have to go now

You’re being very kind here, arguably too kind.

There’s no question that Wolfgang post-refresh can’t be the aggressive wrecking ball he could be before from day 1.  Gyms tether you to your base and until you get a gembell there’s no efficient way to stay mighty besides gyms.

This is a very different rhythm and theme than Wolf had before, where he’d be zooming all over the map, scarfing down food and smashing anything edible along the way.  Wolfgang now requires a gym setup or a steady supply of gembells to sustain mighty, but he’s gained consistency and lost a lot of tedious food production until you have massive food supplies.

The design is as good or better for everything but speedrunning fresh worlds because in longer worlds you’ll have a magi/cane for speed and won’t need to micromanage food.  Wolf can still take on bosses earlier than other characters, but he requires some setup now which makes wanda, wormwood, or potentially even Wigfrid candidates for speedrunning bosses depending on which boss it is.

Diversity is a good thing for speedruns instead of Wolf being the clear winner for all categories.

[Yuuko]

3 hours ago, Toros said:

Wolf can still take on bosses earlier than other characters

Can he though?  I have been playing him as much as I can on the beta branch, and really find his new play style jarring.  I don't typically want to build a base so quick.  I can smash pig houses to make gyms, so it doesn't take too much longer I guess... 

I feel Wolfgang is on par with Wanda in getting access to his damage BUT once I have that with Wanda I'm untethered and can roam to any boss / area I want.  With Wolfgang I have to always come back to base or build a new base everywhere :\ idk if I like that.

Someone suggested make the purple weight repairable with nm fuel and I think that would do a LOT to help him out.

[Gi-Go]

I haven't read reply as there are too many and don't know what's been stated already, but desided to share my view anyways. 

Dumbbells are intended to be used with correlation to gym and not on their own.

Sure it takes 4 minutes to refill mightiness from 0 to max, but why the heck are you at 0 when gym exists??? 

Staying afk seems like a boring thing, but that's where skill comes into play. Choosing when to use. When you wait for stuff that is.

Here are exsamples:

I came to fight dragonfly but it's gonna be night soon and I'm on day 5 the only light on me is torch.

I wanna craft some stuff on ruins station but there are 2 bishops and its a nightmare phase.

Hehe Monkeys.

Deerclops/hounds incoming and I'm away from base.

Pearl is not comming out of her house. 

Pig king is asleep.

I'm early for Glommer.

I NEED these shrooms and i forgot my shovel. 

Every time you wait for something you can use dumbbells. 

[Yuuko]

6 minutes ago, Gi-Go said:

I haven't read reply as there are too many and don't know what's been stated already, but desided to share my view anyways. 

Dumbbells are intended to be used with correlation to gym and not on their own.

You spawn with the rock dumbbell, which is the ultimate trap.  Not only is the item useless for gaining might, but this tells the player they need a dumbbell, not a gym set.  It doesn't matter if it *can work some way* what matters if it the way it works is good.  The feedback is that no one wants to have to check in at a gym every time they want to fight something.  Step 1 in starting a new world isn't, and shouldn't be, make base.  I usually go 14-16 days before I put down any structures, exploring both the topside and ruins, and that's with every character.  No one wants to set up a whole gym or be doomed to wimpy form.  Who picks a strongman character only to be wimpy?  The design is way off base for the character fantasy.

6 minutes ago, Gi-Go said:

Sure it takes 4 minutes to refill mightiness from 0 to max, but why the heck are you at 0 when gym exists??? 

Wanda:  Imagine being tethered to base and have to burn resources for max dps trololo

[Cloakingsumo198]

2 minutes ago, Shosuko said:

I usually go 14-16 days before I put down any structures, exploring both the topside and ruins, and that's with every character

This I'd rather not build any permanent structure early game, it's easier to just meet up where most people are congregating than trying to set a base of operations and hoping people will join you.

[Gi-Go]

36 minutes ago, Shosuko said:

You spawn with the rock dumbbell, which is the ultimate trap.  Not only is the item useless for gaining might, but this tells the player they need a dumbbell, not a gym set.  It doesn't matter if it *can work some way* what matters if it the way it works is good.  The feedback is that no one wants to have to check in at a gym every time they want to fight something.  Step 1 in starting a new world isn't, and shouldn't be, make base.  I usually go 14-16 days before I put down any structures, exploring both the topside and ruins, and that's with every character.  No one wants to set up a whole gym or be doomed to wimpy form.  Who picks a strongman character only to be wimpy?  The design is way off base for the character fantasy.

Wanda:  Imagine being tethered to base and have to burn resources for max dps trololo

Oh, come on now. I spawn in with Lucy suddenly I think this is my main Woodie tool? Not really. 

Step 1 for Wanda: make shadow manipulator.

Step 1 for Wolfgang: make alchemy and gym. 

Don't you play those and know how rush works? 

And yes, Wanda laughs now, but let's see her laugh when Wolfgang will gain both damage and speed from his recharge station.

[Yuuko]

12 minutes ago, Gi-Go said:

Oh, come on now. I spawn in with Lucy suddenly I think this is my main Woodie tool? Not really. 

Step 1 for Wanda: make shadow manipulator.

Step 1 for Wolfgang: make alchemy and gym. 

Don't you play those and know how rush works? 

My Wanda gameplay:

Explore top side, find resources - especially some gems, marble, and reeds.  Go to caves and explore for archives.  This entire time I suffer zero penalties.  Build alchemy, magic tier 1 and 2, get clock.  Now I have permanent max dps with no upkeep.  Beat up bqueen, load bundle wraps with food and and do whatever I want, completely untethered and without upkeep.

Wolfgang gameplay:

Explore top side, find resources - especially some gems and marble.  This whole time I'm wimpy 100% b/c dumbbells are bad for even getting out of wimpy.  Build alchemy, t1 magic, craft gym, statues, bells.  Go mighty and beat up a boss.  Precraft another gym, statue station, crock pot and fridge, explore for ruins.  While exploring I'm wimpy because exploring takes time and I'm not wasting bells for no effect while I'm just walking around.  Hope wherever I find ruins is a good place to build all this so I can go mighty clear some before winter.  Remain tethered to either gym location :\ or build like 20 more gyms :\

I can't wait until Crab King - "here is my gym boat, and entire boat dedicated to having my gym on it.  I hope no sharks jump me while I pump weights."

12 minutes ago, Gi-Go said:

And yes, Wanda laughs now, but let's her laugh when Wolfgang will also gain both damage and speed from his recharge station.

Wolfgang gains zero speed btw - and has pretty much the same dps as Wanda.  The upkeep for Wanda dps is zero, the upkeep for Wolfgangs is constant.

[Gi-Go]

2 minutes ago, Shosuko said:

Wolfgang gains zero speed btw - and has pretty much the same dps as Wanda.  The upkeep for Wanda dps is zero, the upkeep for Wolfgangs is constant.

In beta? sure.

Speed removal caused the biggest backlash klei ever seen, I'm like 95% positive it's gonna be reversed. 

Unless they are gonna stand their ground and keep this change, which would be very surprising and almost impressive, if not for it being so disappointing. 

[Yuuko]

Just now, Gi-Go said:

In beta? sure.

Speed removal caused the biggest backlash klei ever seen, I'm like 95% positive it's gonna be reversed. 

Unless they are gonna stand their ground and keep this change, which would be very surprising and almost impressive, if not for it being so disappointing. 

sry I don't want to be presumptive of anything.  If the current betaWolf is x, then I'm talking about x.  I'm not talking about "x iF tHeY aDd gO FaSt bAcK"  If they revert the speed, that could change things - so could any of the other suggestions that have been made.  I am not going to assume any of them get done and speculate on whether that is good or not.  Klei has done a good job sorting through these things, and as long as they're paying attention I'm sure they'll come to a good place for us.  That doesn't mean we don't give feedback, and stress our concerns here.

[0xF741B84C]

Let's see...

23 minutes ago, Gi-Go said:

I came to fight dragonfly but it's gonna be night soon and I'm on day 5 the only light on me is torch.

You came with the intention to fight DF having only torch as a source of light. That's a bold move considering that the fight might last slightly over a day if it doesn't go well. So, what you are suggesting is to flicker between the torch and dumbbell with the new increased sanity drain while waiting for the day?

 

39 minutes ago, Gi-Go said:

I wanna craft some stuff on ruins station but there are 2 bishops and its a nightmare phase.

This highly depends on the world gen placement, but you can use or even fix if needed the broken ones while waiting nightmare phase to end. I usually fix the closest one to the lichen biome so I don't have to go so far in every time I need to craft something in the ancient station.

 

50 minutes ago, Gi-Go said:

Hehe Monkeys.

Avoid them. Or lure them in charging rook.

 

52 minutes ago, Gi-Go said:

Deerclops/hounds incoming and I'm away from base.

Fair enough. Though waves you can completely negate with nearest sinkhole.

 

1 hour ago, Gi-Go said:

Pearl is not comming out of her house. 

Pig king is asleep.

I'm early for Glommer.

Fair enough, I guess..? But this is mostly on you for mistiming your arrival.

 

1 hour ago, Gi-Go said:

I NEED these shrooms and i forgot my shovel. 

If you have a sense for basic resources, you should be able to craft a new one on the spot.

[Mike23Ua]

3 hours ago, Shosuko said:

Can he though?  I have been playing him as much as I can on the beta branch, and really find his new play style jarring.  I don't typically want to build a base so quick.  I can smash pig houses to make gyms, so it doesn't take too much longer I guess... 

I feel Wolfgang is on par with Wanda in getting access to his damage BUT once I have that with Wanda I'm untethered and can roam to any boss / area I want.  With Wolfgang I have to always come back to base or build a new base everywhere :\ idk if I like that.

Someone suggested make the purple weight repairable with nm fuel and I think that would do a LOT to help him out.

Make weights never lose durability at all unless you use them as a thrown weapon OR you Drop them.. I want to purpose a suggestion: Passively pumping them as you walk around doing other stuff as long as they are in your inventory- And should Wolfgang be hit while carrying this weight then like with any character being licked by a frog he drops it (thus dealing the durability lost damage to it) WANDAs watches NEVER Lose durability once they are crafted so it doesn’t make sense for Wolfgang’s weights to also suffer durability lost.

Now from a real life perspective my mother had a set of workout weights about 15 or so years ago and as a kid I accidentally dropped a set of them on the ground busting them up, the rest of that set of weights since they were never dropped and well taken care of: Are all still in like new condition.

I’m NOT a Wolfgang Main, I have a friend who “sort of is..” I say Sort of because ever since Woodies Rework he mains Woodie Now (and why not??) he does everything my friend wanted Wolfgang to do (speed in goose form, Gathering both wood and rocks in Werebeaver form, AND cool combat abilities like a moose charge and AoE ground pound in Moose form) 

Im NOT a Wolfgang main but locking his Might away behind progression is enough of a change in its own rights Dont you think Klei?? So why on earth do the Dumbells also lose durability over time?

Unless.. there’s some things about this rework that aren’t in the beta phase we don’t know about yet.

Which is highly possible.  

 

[Gi-Go]

45 minutes ago, 0xF741B84C said:

 

Wait, how do I reply like that? To have a sandwich I mean instead of full quote above full reply?

Anyways, yoru reply is a nitpick I don't belive even the most efficiency loving players never stand in one place even for 30 seconds or at least don't want to do it. So don't be like that, like standing still is just unforgivable and unacceptable even for a short period from time to time. 

I burn trees and bushes with torch I don't actually hold it. The last one can be dug out and replanted if I have shovel on me and I do - I dug blue cups for this fight with it. I intend on killing her in a less than a day that's why I'm wolfgang after all. 

Waiting for monkeys to calm down and not wasting 6 thulecite is better some times. Not often but still. 

The timing things for exsample are a clear nitpick. Why do you insist on saying that dumbbells are never convenient? what do you even want from klei? To remove them? What do you want them to be replaced with? Or do you want them to be reworked? How?

I came for pig king and I am gonna get gloomer on my way back so I'm waiting for him now. Or I did my pearl tusks as dusk and now I'm waiting for morning to get Pearl's pearl. Or I made moon staff event arena and am waiting for night. Waiting exists is my point. 

 

[Toroic]

3 hours ago, Shosuko said:

Can he though?  I have been playing him as much as I can on the beta branch, and really find his new play style jarring.  I don't typically want to build a base so quick.  I can smash pig houses to make gyms, so it doesn't take too much longer I guess... 

I feel Wolfgang is on par with Wanda in getting access to his damage BUT once I have that with Wanda I'm untethered and can roam to any boss / area I want.  With Wolfgang I have to always come back to base or build a new base everywhere :\ idk if I like that.

Someone suggested make the purple weight repairable with nm fuel and I think that would do a LOT to help him out.

Comparing building a gym to wanda getting the alarming clock is absurd.

You can get a science machine basically day 1, which means you could, if you wanted, build a gym then and there.  Potato sack gym is slow but the only real change for a standard dfly rush is building a gym and building up mighty before you start the fight.  Wolf still benefits from double damage and thus needs less healing as he takes less damage in the event he made a mistake.

I also think the dumbbells are overall clunky to use and could use some QoL changes to improve the flow (scrimbles has a mod where tossing dumbbells built your mighty meter so you can attack and maintain mighty simultaneously) and a refuelable gembell would be a nice feature as well.

Where I strongly disagree is with adding his speed boost back as a general feature.

If you wanted to add speed back to let Wolf dodge like he could before, you could restrict his speed boost to during combat only.  Speed is way too powerful as a general perk because it lets you do everything faster, and if the real issue is needing to hit speed thresholds without magi for certain bosses earlier, combat speed boost is sufficient.

@Shosuko pretending that Wanda doesn’t require a steady supply of nm fuel to upkeep her dps is an absurd and misleading position to take.  She can easily farm shadows of course, but she only gets a damage boost while using things that consume fuel, and the time spent going insane to farm fuel is a cost.

[Yuuko]

19 minutes ago, Toros said:

Comparing building a gym to wanda getting the alarming clock is absurd.

You can get a science machine basically day 1, which means you could, if you wanted, build a gym then and there.  Potato sack gym is slow but the only real change for a standard dfly rush is building a gym and building up mighty before you start the fight.  Wolf still benefits from double damage and thus needs less healing as he takes less damage in the event he made a mistake.

I also think the dumbbells are overall clunky to use and could use some QoL changes to improve the flow (scrimbles has a mod where tossing dumbbells built your mighty meter so you can attack and maintain mighty simultaneously) and a refuelable gembell would be a nice feature as well.

Where I strongly disagree is with adding his speed boost back as a general feature.

If you wanted to add speed back to let Wolf dodge like he could before, you could restrict his speed boost to during combat only.  Speed is way too powerful as a general perk because it lets you do everything faster, and if the real issue is needing to hit speed thresholds without magi for certain bosses earlier, combat speed boost is sufficient.

And yeah - good point, if you're only playing a speed run you can build a gym off of some broken pig houses and a science machine, you don't need alchemy.  I'm not speed running though, I'm just playing.  When I start a new world I'll explore for the first 12-16 days, revealing the map and caves before I start to put down structures.  I'm in wimpy form through this entire time b/c I wouldn't go back to a gym when I'm trying to explore.  I'm still trying different ways to path through the early game with betaWolf, but so far the best strat is to base before exploring the caves, which means I might not get to that before summer.

I'm not advocating for returning the speed buff, but with this much work to get mighty it needs more than just a combat benefit.

t2 magic isn't much further than t1 magic if you're exploring caves anyway, so yeah - I think alarming clock and gym / gembell are comparable.

Quote

@Shosuko pretending that Wanda doesn’t require a steady supply of nm fuel to upkeep her dps is an absurd and misleading position to take.  She can easily farm shadows of course, but she only gets a damage boost while using things that consume fuel, and the time spent going insane to farm fuel is a cost.

Its easy to stay insane though, and she is *really* good at farming nm fuel.  When I head to atrium early game to get thulecite pieces I also harvest blue caps, and that is typically where I build my base as the blue mushtree forest almost always has a grass area with cave exit nearby.  Also you can raid the lunar island for bullkelp, which are a very low maintenance and space efficient crop.  Staying insane is easy.  The only time I let my sanity go up is when I start a boss fight.

Ironically Wolfgang finds it easy to stay insane too XD I don't even have to eat food for it.  IF ONLY I could use that nm fuel to repair gembell...  imo that would do a LOT to bring his kit together.

[Gi-Go]

2 hours ago, Shosuko said:

My Wanda gameplay:

Explore top side, find resources - especially some gems, marble, and reeds.  Go to caves and explore for archives.  This entire time I suffer zero penalties.  Build alchemy, magic tier 1 and 2, get clock.  Now I have permanent max dps with no upkeep.  Beat up bqueen, load bundle wraps with food and and do whatever I want, completely untethered and without upkeep.

Wolfgang gameplay:

Explore top side, find resources - especially some gems and marble.  This whole time I'm wimpy 100% b/c dumbbells are bad for even getting out of wimpy.  Build alchemy, t1 magic, craft gym, statues, bells.  Go mighty and beat up a boss.  Precraft another gym, statue station, crock pot and fridge, explore for ruins.  While exploring I'm wimpy because exploring takes time and I'm not wasting bells for no effect while I'm just walking around.  Hope wherever I find ruins is a good place to build all this so I can go mighty clear some before winter.  Remain tethered to either gym location :\ or build like 20 more gyms :\

I can't wait until Crab King - "here is my gym boat, and entire boat dedicated to having my gym on it.  I hope no sharks jump me while I pump weights."

My Wanda gameplay:

It's autumn.

Locate graveyard, pig king, touch stone, mandrake forest, dragonfly bee queen and chess boss stuff. Locate triple walruses and give up on the world if you don't have them.

At graveyard: dig graves, get the junk, get gems, go insane, kills shadows.

At pig king: trade the junk, smash houses, bre-build alchemy, mine glommer, get the flute.

At touch stone: get the sticks, die, revive, get 2 marble (the clock is available now).

Mandrake forest: get the drakes, chop living trees, get the flowers, smash more houses, dig more graves, smash spider eggs.

Make hat machine, make shadow machine and clock if you got lucky with gems. If not - skip the next part for later and keep hat machine bre-build.

Go to dragonfly and go in granny mode. Deconstruct heal watch, make i-frames watch. Kill her without taking damage. Get the gems.

Go to grotto and get 3 or more living logs (only if you found just 1 living tree on the surface).

Go to ruins. Hit snail houses with lantern on your way and on yoru way back for a potential shell. Get purples and reds. Smash big walls. Do normal ruins stuff. Make shadow manipulator here if you didn't already. Make magi and nightmare amulet (make it on surface if you have magic station there). Abandon your backpack, nightmare amulet and lantern at least while you are in ruins. Kill ancient guard, but not before he smashes his walls. Get his loot and wall bits. Find station or make one. Get crowns. Get green staff. Get 2 yellow ones. Get club if you can. Deside if you need backpack or not. Return home.
Get more marble and make more heals. kill bee queen.

Deconstruct your cane or lazy explorer if you managed to get those in the first autumn, use teleport clock to transfer marble heads (only if it's still day 19 or less).

It's winter.

Get tusks. If you didn't get the chance to do chess carrying in autumn, do it now. Craft 2 teleport clocks to carry chess pieces. Have 1 active shadow by day 22 and keep it from despawning while assembling other heads. If you failed to get 2 tusks on day 21 then give up on the world.
Kill shadows. Kill deerclops and klaus. Farm all 4 walruses every time you can. Use 1 portal for base and 1 for pearl and 1 for walruses. Do her dumb quests. the winter one must be done now. Find salt and set a 4th teleport there. Do moon staff event. Do farms. Kill goats. Make moggles. If you didn't get 5 tusks in winter - give up on the world.

It's spring.

Kill gooses. Make whether pain. Do archive. Locate crab king and moon island. Set walrus teleport at lunar island, be done with cookie cutters and repurpose their teleport as a freestyle watch and set its tele-point on 1 time use locations. Always carry it. Assemble 2 altars. Go to caves and get fossils and bunnyman. Teleport to base and make bunnyman houses, then teleport back with freestyle watch. Go in ruins and make nightmare amulet if your shadow machine is here. Make lazy explorer and puff your way to atrium's atrium. If you can't reach aiturm from ruins - give up on the world. Kill fuelweaver and teleport to base.

It's summer.

Kill antlion. Finish pearl quests. Kill crab king. Do the moon strom event with bunnymen and potatoes. Kill lunar champ. Make glass axes and kill toadstool.

And that's all. I only play first year as Wanda, and I skip mini bosses, bearger and malbatros.



My reworked Wolfgang playstyle:

I find pig king and I precraft alchemy, statue wheel and gym. I get panflute, mine glommer, kill cats and dig shrooms.
Then I find dragonfly, place my alchemy, my gym and statues. Do training montage, make helms and hambat and kill hounds and then dragonfly.

I've seen enough, I'm satisfied.

[Toroic]

1 hour ago, Shosuko said:

And yeah - good point, if you're only playing a speed run you can build a gym off of some broken pig houses and a science machine, you don't need alchemy.  I'm not speed running though, I'm just playing.  When I start a new world I'll explore for the first 12-16 days, revealing the map and caves before I start to put down structures.  I'm in wimpy form through this entire time b/c I wouldn't go back to a gym when I'm trying to explore.  I'm still trying different ways to path through the early game with betaWolf, but so far the best strat is to base before exploring the caves, which means I might not get to that before summer.

I'm not advocating for returning the speed buff, but with this much work to get mighty it needs more than just a combat benefit.

t2 magic isn't much further than t1 magic if you're exploring caves anyway, so yeah - I think alarming clock and gym / gembell are comparable.

Its easy to stay insane though, and she is *really* good at farming nm fuel.  When I head to atrium early game to get thulecite pieces I also harvest blue caps, and that is typically where I build my base as the blue mushtree forest almost always has a grass area with cave exit nearby.  Also you can raid the lunar island for bullkelp, which are a very low maintenance and space efficient crop.  Staying insane is easy.  The only time I let my sanity go up is when I start a boss fight.

Ironically Wolfgang finds it easy to stay insane too XD I don't even have to eat food for it.  IF ONLY I could use that nm fuel to repair gembell...  imo that would do a LOT to bring his kit together.

While you’re exploring I really don’t see much downside to being wimpy.  There’s no longer any slowdown and exploring doesn’t require much combat (and you could use the dumbbell to get to normal form for that, especially with the recent changes).

You might as well just explore while wimpy, make an early golden dumbbell to get to normal form if there’s a hound wave or early fight, and base as you would normally.

[Yuuko]

21 minutes ago, Toros said:

While you’re exploring I really don’t see much downside to being wimpy.  There’s no longer any slowdown and exploring doesn’t require much combat (and you could use the dumbbell to get to normal form for that, especially with the recent changes).

You might as well just explore while wimpy, make an early golden dumbbell to get to normal form if there’s a hound wave or early fight, and base as you would normally.

With the new dumbbell changes, yes.  The downside of being wimpy while exploring is only how easy it is to get Mighty when you're ready to do something.  idk about building a gym just because I spotted some ruins.  Sometimes you explore, fight and clear some, then realize you're in the wrong area and need to go around, through monkeys etc, and in another way.  Building a gym isn't convenient for that.

The new dumbbell changes are though.  This post was made before those changes, things are looking better now for not being tethered to a gym.  The increased work speed is going to mean a lot too, since you're not maintaining Mighty just to fight.

[Canis]

My only gripe with the rework is that using the dumbells halts everything you're doing. Maybe the dumbell could make Wolfgang automatically start pumping it when held, and you could move around with it to still gain benefits? That way the Dumbell's use is more related to just holding it rather than "using" it.

[Toroic]

7 minutes ago, Shosuko said:

With the new dumbbell changes, yes.  The downside of being wimpy while exploring is only how easy it is to get Mighty when you're ready to do something.  idk about building a gym just because I spotted some ruins.  Sometimes you explore, fight and clear some, then realize you're in the wrong area and need to go around, through monkeys etc, and in another way.  Building a gym isn't convenient for that.

The new dumbbell changes are though.  This post was made before those changes, things are looking better now for not being tethered to a gym.  The increased work speed is going to mean a lot too, since you're not maintaining Mighty just to fight.

Yeah, my comments have been pretty antagonistic against doomsday predictions (“Wolfgang is ruined”), hyperbole about the amount of time lost (gyms with boss statues take like 10 seconds a day, tops), and people demanding that his mighty form universal speed boost is added back in or he’s useless.  In contrast, I’m fully in support of things that make him more fun to play, or improve the flow of gameplay.

With several of the last refreshes Klei did a post refresh release where pain points were addressed and numbers were tuned and in all cases I’m aware of things were improved.  I was, and remain confident that they’ll continue to tweak as they test and get quality feedback.

[0xF741B84C]

12 hours ago, Gi-Go said:

Wait, how do I reply like that? To have a sandwich I mean instead of full quote above full reply?

You just highlight what you want to reply to and after a second a quote button will show up.

 

12 hours ago, Gi-Go said:

Anyways, yoru reply is a nitpick I don't belive even the most efficiency loving players never stand in one place even for 30 seconds or at least don't want to do it. So don't be like that, like standing still is just unforgivable and unacceptable even for a short period from time to time. 

Nitpick or not, I replied to every of your examples with how I interpreted it or how I would deal with it. Since you now explained some of the hows and whys I'm satisfied and I might have sleep in peace tonight.

I don't know if it's just me, but picking Wolfgang was always about the efficiency, and about to see how far you can push boundaries to be even more efficient. People say that Wolfgang is/was boring and bland character because of his "overpowerness", but is it really because of it? Of course, if you play him as regular character with just double damage, you will find him uninteresting, but if you are aware what he is capable of, how free he is and how you can experiment with him... it is just his uniqueness which will now disappear if no compromise is made. The joy of making or achieving something quicker than before and thinking how to do it in even better way the next try. I get that this playstyle isn't for everyone. The only things he suffers from is the removal of speed boost and not being able to refill his might without the "breaks". Now he feels like he has a prisonball attach to him.

 

13 hours ago, Gi-Go said:

I burn trees and bushes with torch I don't actually hold it. The last one can be dug out and replanted if I have shovel on me and I do - I dug blue cups for this fight with it. I intend on killing her in a less than a day that's why I'm wolfgang after all. 

I thought of the trees and cactuses but didn't take them in count since cactuses are not renewable and unburned trees are somewhat rare around DF. I really like the bush ide though!

 

13 hours ago, Gi-Go said:

The timing things for exsample are a clear nitpick. Why do you insist on saying that dumbbells are never convenient? what do you even want from klei? To remove them? What do you want them to be replaced with? Or do you want them to be reworked? How?

I came for pig king and I am gonna get gloomer on my way back so I'm waiting for him now. Or I did my pearl tusks as dusk and now I'm waiting for morning to get Pearl's pearl. Or I made moon staff event arena and am waiting for night. Waiting exists is my point. 

Well, compare to old Wolfgang, dumbbells will be never convenient. I would fix it in way of compromise that the old abilities are somehow accessible in form of mid to lategame character specific items. E.g., some kind of belt that would convert some of the food value percentage of eaten food into the mightiness and it could be made out of Slurper fur and some hard to come by items. Another can be moonrock/glass dumbbell that has very low durability but boosts the mightiness really fast depending on Wolfs sanity. Lastly, I would make the gym somewhat upgradable similarly to Perla's house or Florid Postern, which once upgraded it will allow you to fill additional overlay over the mightiness meter that would slowly decay overtime, this would be the speed boost which is only active if you are mighty, well fed and the overlay didn't runout yet.

In this context the gloomer and pigking makes sense, I guess. I'm aware that waiting exists, but my point was to show how the dumbbell weights you down, or rather slows you down compare to just clicking the food and thinking of any other way how to use the waiting time.

[ArubaroBeefalo]

17 hours ago, Shosuko said:

My Wanda gameplay:

Explore top side, find resources - especially some gems, marble, and reeds.  Go to caves and explore for archives.  This entire time I suffer zero penalties.  Build alchemy, magic tier 1 and 2, get clock.  Now I have permanent max dps with no upkeep.  Beat up bqueen, load bundle wraps with food and and do whatever I want, completely untethered and without upkeep.

Wolfgang gameplay:

Explore top side, find resources - especially some gems and marble.  This whole time I'm wimpy 100% b/c dumbbells are bad for even getting out of wimpy.  Build alchemy, t1 magic, craft gym, statues, bells.  Go mighty and beat up a boss.  Precraft another gym, statue station, crock pot and fridge, explore for ruins.  While exploring I'm wimpy because exploring takes time and I'm not wasting bells for no effect while I'm just walking around.  Hope wherever I find ruins is a good place to build all this so I can go mighty clear some before winter.  Remain tethered to either gym location :\ or build like 20 more gyms :\

I can't wait until Crab King - "here is my gym boat, and entire boat dedicated to having my gym on it.  I hope no sharks jump me while I pump weights."

Wolfgang gains zero speed btw - and has pretty much the same dps as Wanda.  The upkeep for Wanda dps is zero, the upkeep for Wolfgangs is constant.

my gameplayas wolfgang was so different but since i dont overexagerate things my story might no be as exciting as yours

[Yuuko]

3 hours ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

my gameplayas wolfgang was so different but since i dont overexagerate things my story might no be as exciting as yours

What about that do you think was exagerated?