Tone Down Space Radiation

[Primalflower]

Space Radiation is also something that was effected by the 10x buff of the beta, so now instead of being 25, its 250 rads...this feels kinda ridiculous and its hard for duplicants to exist out there for more than a small amount of time. Can it be toned down?

[Sasza22]

They added an extra layer for the spacefarer modules for extra protection (only applies to ones build after the update) so it shouldn`t be that bad. I imagine if it`s still not enough you could build a metal floor inside and the pilot seat and bed below it so the dupe spends most of his time there.

[gabberworld]

what you mean tone down? i think 250 sounds just super. i can easily build all my rad food farms to space without need worry about where i get extra rad

[AndreyKl]

On 11/7/2021 at 3:50 AM, gabberworld said:

what you mean tone down? i think 250 sounds just super. i can easily build all my rad food farms to space without need worry about where i get extra rad

Plants also have 10x rad requirements, so for plants it will barely change (radiation might have easier time getting to plants under glass)

On 11/6/2021 at 10:32 PM, Primalflower said:

this feels kinda ridiculous and its hard for duplicants to exist out there for more than a small amount of time.

What comes first, radiation sickness or sunburn? When colonizing new planetoids, sunburns were constant companion for my dupes, due to everything being exposed and that's for experienced dupes that work and move fast. If radiation sickness comes first, that indeed might be a problem.

Do toilets still remove all radiation at the end of the day?

P.S. Seems like a valid use case for rad-suits, but those are too huge to be placed in a rocket. Rad pills might be an option.

[Primalflower]

On 11/6/2021 at 6:39 PM, Sasza22 said:

They added an extra layer for the spacefarer modules for extra protection (only applies to ones build after the update) so it shouldn`t be that bad. I imagine if it`s still not enough you could build a metal floor inside and the pilot seat and bed below it so the dupe spends most of his time there.

The extra layer is only a handful of tiles on the large spacefarer, nothing else, its still ~100 radbolts or more inside most tiles of spaceship, which means you just...absolutely need rad pills for space, unless you want to sacrifice a whole layer of tiles putting down lead or something, which just feels bad.

6 hours ago, AndreyKl said:

Do toilets still remove all radiation at the end of the day

No, for a long time theyve only removed 60 rads, nothing more. 

[NeoDeusMachina]

5 hours ago, Primalflower said:

The extra layer is only a handful of tiles on the large spacefarer, nothing else

I was surprised when I saw that, not sure why they didn't go all in and make the protective layer cover the entire width of the spacefarer module instead of only a couple of tiles in the middle, leaving tiles on each side unprotected. If their goal was to force us to use radiation protection in space and/or rad pills, why bother adding that partial shield at all?

[meekay]

From the sound of it, this sounds like more of a serious gameplay change than just "fixing and polishing" in prep for release.         

[NeoDeusMachina]

On 11/6/2021 at 9:32 PM, Primalflower said:

so now instead of being 25, its 250 rads

It is planet dependent, so it can be as "low" as 187 rads/cycle on the starting asteroids and go as up as 375 rads/cycle on some of the outer planetoids like the superconductive planet.

As a reference, toilets eliminate 60 rads/cycle and rad pills eliminate 100 rads/cycle iirc.

[Sasza22]

On 11/8/2021 at 3:39 PM, Primalflower said:

The extra layer is only a handful of tiles on the large spacefarer, nothing else, its still ~100 radbolts or more inside most tiles of spaceship, which means you just...absolutely need rad pills for space

~100 rads/cycle is effectively +40 rads/cycle given dupes remove 60/cycle. At 100 dupes get first rad sickness symptoms that just slows them down. Doesn`t matter too much in the rocket though. Next symptoms are at like 500 right? That would give you ~10 cycles before the dupe will get there. If the mission is shorter the dupe should be ok.

It`s not perfect and the dupe will need to "de-rad" at home before the next mission but it`s doable. As for rad pills they are super cheap anyway and fix the issue altogether. Only thing is that it might be annoying to load them everytime.

[NeoDeusMachina]

53 minutes ago, Sasza22 said:

~100 rads/cycle is effectively +40 rads/cycle given dupes remove 60/cycle. At 100 dupes get first rad sickness symptoms that just slows them down. Doesn`t matter too much in the rocket though. Next symptoms are at like 500 right? That would give you ~10 cycles before the dupe will get there. If the mission is shorter the dupe should be ok.

It`s not perfect and the dupe will need to "de-rad" at home before the next mission but it`s doable. As for rad pills they are super cheap anyway and fix the issue altogether. Only thing is that it might be annoying to load them everytime.

Been doing some work on some surface infrastructure on one of the planets where space radiation is 375 rads/cycle and it goes up quite fast. I was using rad pills, so removing 160 rads/cycle in total which means it still increased at a rate of 215 rads/cycles. Not gonna lie, I had to pay attention to my duplicant more than ever before. Minor radiation sickness was unavoidable and I had to take some "breaks" inside my rocket every other cycle to get the radiation levels down before resuming work on the surface. Right now, it is only 250 rads/cycle in the rocket. Hopefully, that will increase if the rocket is on a harsher planet, which would make it harder to hide inside rockets and more coherent overall.

Travel time was about 10 cycles total (back and forth) where the duplicant used rad pills to keep radiation levels low. I was using my old rocket module so no shielding other than the tiles I had built inside the spacefarer module myself.

So far, I am liking how it feels. I would definitely say that rad suits would make building on those planets much smoother in combination with rad pills. For the first time, I had to think about radiation - it feels right.

[AndreyKl]

14 hours ago, Sasza22 said:

That would give you ~10 cycles before the dupe will get there. If the mission is shorter the dupe should be ok.

Missions can easily take longer that that, especially missions to the likes of superconductive or oceanic asteroids, a cycle to set initial landing sight, a a cycle to set basic infrastructure (suit repair, solar panel, potentially an unloader to refuel, may be some alternations to rocket) and then a dozen cycles of work to get to the goodies. And it will be a lot more rads per cycle in such case.

Some basic work can be done beforehand by a rover, but not much.

14 hours ago, NeoDeusMachina said:

Right now, it is only 250 rads/cycle in the rocket.

Hopefully they will fix that, as well as give an ability to block radiation by building steel gates over the rocket.

I agree that radiation should be something to overcome, but the 'overcome' part seems to be lagging behind.

[Sasza22]

5 hours ago, AndreyKl said:

Missions can easily take longer that that, especially missions to the likes of superconductive or oceanic asteroids, a cycle to set initial landing sight, a a cycle to set basic infrastructure (suit repair, solar panel, potentially an unloader to refuel, may be some alternations to rocket) and then a dozen cycles of work to get to the goodies. And it will be a lot more rads per cycle in such case.

When talking about the distant asteroids i think it`s ok if you need extra preparations. It should be an extra challenge to get to the superconductive asteroid. I`m ok with it requiring you to stock on seafood and rad pills as well as requiring lead suits to work on the surface.

[AndreyKl]

1 hour ago, Sasza22 said:

I`m ok with it requiring you to stock on seafood and rad pills as well as requiring lead suits to work on the surface.

Sea food has a +20% radiation resistance buff for 2 cycles. Which means up to 75rad/cycle reduction minus some value from time spent in a rocket.

A reasonable reduction, but it's also troublesome to automate. Cooked fish and Surf'n'Turf spoil at a 5% rate when frozen and in CO2, so you can't keep it in a rocket indefinitely and need to load and potentially craft it right before launch. It also limits mission time to 20 cycles (or a bit more with some additions) which is more limiting than oxygen storage or ~40 if you cook it at the destination (yet more micromanagement). Cargo container seems to preserve temperature, so it's an option to deep-freeze some seafood for the trip, in such case food is not an issue, but requires micromanagement or additional automation.

Sea food sounds a lot more than just "extra preparation" and not the challenging type, we can't deliver food based on freshness, nor even auto-compost food that is not fresh enough.

I agree about needing rad pills and suits, but would be nice if there was a single-tile storage for the pills that allows storing specific amounts per pill type.

[AndreyKl]

New update

Quote

• Increased standard Duplicant radiation recovery from 60 to 100 rads/cycle.

Nice, but probably would have been better to add a variant of clothes with ~40rads reduction, to allow more options of fighting radiation.

[NeoDeusMachina]

3 hours ago, AndreyKl said:

New update

Nice, but probably would have been better to add a variant of clothes with ~40rads reduction, to allow more options of fighting radiation.

That'd be great, some sort of lead apron (dentist ptsd anyone?) or protective shirt that could offer a minor radiation resistance (much lower than lead suits but enough to be slightly helpful. Could stack with the lead suit tho).

[KonfigSys]

I hope Klei will make an option (like with diseases or combined with diseases) to make dupes less prone to the radiation or reduce radiation for those who do not want to micromanage pills, etc.

What about POI drill crews? They spend most of the time in space and then again an extra layer of micromanagement will be added for POI mining?

 

 

 

[Nebbie]

250 is a bit too much, even with 100 rads/cycle loss. They really should take it down to 150, to remove the need for the extra layer of tiles to begin with.

[NeoDeusMachina]

1 hour ago, Nebbie said:

250 is a bit too much, even with 100 rads/cycle loss. They really should take it down to 150, to remove the need for the extra layer of tiles to begin with.

I disagree. I have only been using my old spacefarer modules and with the current 250 rads/cycle in space, the radiation levels are at about 95 below the ceiling of the spacefarer module (no extra layer of tiles in the old model). It used to be that you needed rad pills to travel in space, but not since they have buffed toilets to remove up to 100 rads/cycle. 

There are also tiles in the rocket module and gas (if you build the interior anyway), so radiation levels are usually well below the 100 rads/cycles duplicants eliminate on their own. Rad pills add another 100 rad/cycle for cases where duplicants need to work on the surface of a planet where radiation levels are higher. Hopefully, they will adjust radiation in "space" on the interior view to match where the rocket is on the starmap, which means rad pills might be required to travel far on the starmap. I think this would be very acceptable and all it requires is some coal and an unpowered fridge that gets automatically refilled on landing (no micromanagement required at all).

[KonfigSys]

On 11/14/2021 at 11:07 AM, NeoDeusMachina said:

I disagree. I have only been using my old spacefarer modules and with the current 250 rads/cycle in space, the radiation levels are at about 95 below the ceiling of the spacefarer module (no extra layer of tiles in the old model). It used to be that you needed rad pills to travel in space, but not since they have buffed toilets to remove up to 100 rads/cycle. 

There are also tiles in the rocket module and gas (if you build the interior anyway), so radiation levels are usually well below the 100 rads/cycles duplicants eliminate on their own. Rad pills add another 100 rad/cycle for cases where duplicants need to work on the surface of a planet where radiation levels are higher. Hopefully, they will adjust radiation in "space" on the interior view to match where the rocket is on the starmap, which means rad pills might be required to travel far on the starmap. I think this would be very acceptable and all it requires is some coal and an unpowered fridge that gets automatically refilled on landing (no micromanagement required at all).

one extra storage/fridge just for the rad pills is not optimal for already limited habitat module space 

I meant that if the crew members get rads more than they "wash down" in the toilet during constant travel, it may create a need to change the crew between POIs mining trips. If Klei comes up with the automation module for mining ships (so no crew will be needed), then I do not have any objections.

[NeoDeusMachina]

6 hours ago, KonfigSys said:

one extra storage/fridge just for the rad pills is not optimal for already limited habitat module space 

I meant that if the crew members get rads more than they "wash down" in the toilet during constant travel, it may create a need to change the crew between POIs mining trips. If Klei comes up with the automation module for mining ships (so no crew will be needed), then I do not have any objections.

That was kind of my point - they don't. Under the ceiling of the spacefarer module, radiation is at maximum around 95 rads/cycles, duplicants eliminate 100 rads/cycles in toilets. They can be in space without any rad pills (at least in the current state of the game).

Also, there is plenty of space (no pun intented) inside spacefarer module for an extra fridge, it's a 1x2 building. Mining rockets only carry 1 duplicant, so we need less furniture. We really don't need much to keep one duplicant alive and happy in a rocket module. The issue I see people encounter when they share their rocket designs is that they would like it to be a mini base with all the room bonuses and all the installations they would normally get when they are in the main base, but that is overkill.

If there really is no way to afford the extra space for a fridge (which I doubt), there are alternative solutions to get pills in there. The simplest I can think of would be to stock up a few hundred pills and deconstruct the fridge, this should last a while especially if denying rad pills to your dupes while they are in space since they don't need it.

I don't think everything always has to be optimal, but if this is what sends dopamine to your brain, that's very fine. When updates like that happen, the metagame changes, and it just means that your current designs are not optimal anymore. You essentially have two options: (1) find what is the new optimal design for the new metagame, or (2) complain about it on the forums and either ask to change the metagame or to add new content to make sure you don't have to adapt your current solution to the new metagame. Either is fine, but (1) might (hopefully) send more dopamine to your brain than (2).

[juni3227]

In my case, I just let dupe get radiation sickness. I just let them land without anything but some steel and glass, dig rocks asap, place a rocket plaform, land the rocket and thats now our front base for colonization.

minor sickness is not a big deal. They just looks ugly with green skin and pimples.

Just rememeber to pack some dirt in the orbital module so that your dupe can flush that rad. Because most of biome does not have dirt.

 

For your main base space mining? They get to pee.

 

[WhiteWind36]

Don't see a problem about radiation in rocket interior. Still using old spacefarer module without any extra protection, without radpils or seafoods. Although I do have waterweed at my base, but it is just inconvenient for using in space missions.

By the ceiling radiation is 95, but where the dupe actually spends time it's below 80, and levels below almost don't have radiation.

The real problem of radiation is outside on the surface. Although maybe because I play on 2 month old world generation, I did not saw any different radiation levels in different asteroids. In 5 asteroids that I uncovered radiation on surface is the same 218 rads/cycle. And this amount isn't too bad... Just please don't make dupes react to radiation at least up to 500 rads/cycle. Because of that animation they spend much more time in radiation and slows down all game performance... In fact just like with irritated skin or eye animations, it just doesn't make sense to make those reactions in these conditions, they should react to it when they just left hazardous environment. Especially I don't understand dupes reacting to radiation levels ~500 when wearing lead suit. Same with eye and skin irritation with atmo suits, they still do those animations even wearing suits. So why the hell are suits for? Suits should protect them and make dupes more concentrated on their tasks and not on expressing themselves, especially talking about reactions to environment which actually don't affects them, because they are with suits god d*** it.

It's not about complaining that some builds are not working now, like wheezworts in a kitchen or in mess hall by the food storage. And it is not too hard to deal with radiation challenges. Although I was getting dupes with minor radiation sickness, but that's ok, I'm still getting lots of dupes with all other debuffs and still can not care enough about that, so why care about radiation.

Although thinking about players that do care, I would say that radiation on the surface should be lower at least twice. To still make some minor issues, but would be impossible to use for radbolts generation and should not distract dupes every time they get on the surface. Lead suits are luxury in some map generations, so do atmo suits... Let's keep space as it was unfriendly, unwelcome, but still conquerable even without any suits, that's the beauty of it.

And when you have to go to 2-3 other asteroids beyond your home just to get resources needed to make atmo or lead suits - making all surfaces slight Hazard radiation levels it's kind of overkill for a sane challenge.

Did not tried to land on new asteroid and build a base after this radiation update... Just making some radiation protection in bases that was built before. But now even going to the rockets, when everything is already setted up dupes are constantly exposed to increased radiation...

And say what you want, but lead suit wasn't meant to be used in space. It is meant to be used in high radiation areas, where you producing radbolts.

Overall increased radiation was bad idea. Klei had to adjust so much of everything to make it somehow poorly work, with many complains from players. Better solution would be get everything back to the levels it was, and from radiation update keep only decreased radbolt generation. That would make the challenge meaningful. There is so many ways to produce radiation and so many schemes to do it at incredible levels. Meaning player still can use their builds and schemes, just to get same results for radbolts production as before they should go beyond save radiation levels and expose their dupes to extreme hazardous situations, that's where lead suits should be used, radpills and seafood, and changing dupes to not be in there too long... But not in all *** space!

Don't give out radiation too easy, and don't make it everyday problem, it is meant to be hard to produce a lots of radbolts, and not hard to protect your dupes if you are way before any radbolt production.

If everything stays as it is now...soon we will have atmo suits obsoleted by lead suits, ruining game balance overall.

[KonfigSys]

"The simplest I can think of would be to stock up a few hundred pills and deconstruct the fridge, this should last a while especially if denying rad pills to your dupes while they are in space since they don't need it."

Here we are talking about micromanagement. Load and deconstruct the fridge, deny rad pills every space trip(!!!) 

is it fun? I do not think so - grinding....

Do I have an extra space for rad pill fridge? Probably but I would rather use the space for other purposes. 

Just tell me what the extra fun we get from this. I always build medical facilities with medicine production - so it does not bring anything new here. 

The space exploration gets delayed due to these extra hassles. I thought DLC had a focus to make space exploration much easier than in the classic game. I personally prefer meteorite shower to the high surface radiation. You have to be create with meteorites (automation, unique engineering solution); what the high rad at surface will do to the player creativity?

rad pill production? Just coal and the medical supply station - simple as a piece of cake.

radiation suits for working on the surface? Overkill.

rad suits to land on a new asteroid and build the platform? I tried to use the rad suit on the regolith asteroid (as I used a r/a rocket to reach the asteroid) and I could not  even build the rocket platform (not enough oxygen compared to the atmosuit).

I would support high radiation level at uranium ore mining, at nuclear plant site but surface(?)

 

I did not know what dopamine does to my brain and had to look at wiki.

"The anticipation of most types of rewards increases the level of dopamine in the brain,^[4] and many addictive drugs increase dopamine release or block its reuptake into neurons following release"

Perhaps it is rewarding for someone to micromanage the colony - a la SIMS.

Clearly it is not rewarding for someone who is more to engineering/construction - "build and forget" type of players.

I do realize that there are at least two types of ONI players - some like managing dupes (hence, they need emotions, traits, cloth, etc.) and others like the engineering side of the game.

 

[NeoDeusMachina]

Edit: I don't want to misinform anyone, the radiation resistance difficulty slider I am referring to below is currently on the testing branch and will come out in the next live update.

9 hours ago, WhiteWind36 said:

Don't see a problem about radiation in rocket interior. Still using old spacefarer module without any extra protection, without radpils or seafoods. Although I do have waterweed at my base, but it is just inconvenient for using in space missions.

By the ceiling radiation is 95, but where the dupe actually spends time it's below 80, and levels below almost don't have radiation.

The real problem of radiation is outside on the surface. Although maybe because I play on 2 month old world generation, I did not saw any different radiation levels in different asteroids. [...]

Overall increased radiation was bad idea. Klei had to adjust so much of everything to make it somehow poorly work, with many complains from players. Better solution would be get everything back to the levels it was, and from radiation update keep only decreased radbolt generation. That would make the challenge meaningful. There is so many ways to produce radiation and so many schemes to do it at incredible levels. Meaning player still can use their builds and schemes, just to get same results for radbolts production as before they should go beyond save radiation levels and expose their dupes to extreme hazardous situations, that's where lead suits should be used, radpills and seafood, and changing dupes to not be in there too long... But not in all *** space!

I am a bit confused by your post - at first you say that you don't see a problem about radiation in rocket interior and I totally agree with that. The numbers you have reported are the same as I did and dupes eliminate more than that everyday. So space travel as it is now is a non-issue (no need for any protection, no need for rad pills).

It is hard to consider your experience as representative when it comes to surface radiation levels as you have not played on a new world and they changed surface level radiation on every asteroid, more details on that above. The changes only apply to newly generated worlds iirc.

I had concerns about how Klei implemented the whole radiation increase, but not about the result itself. I don't think it was a bad idea, I think radiation now is in our mind and we cannot completely ignore it. If they reverted back to before, then we are back to radiation being for all intents and purposes ignored for everything except radbolt generation. I had "insane radiation" areas before the overhaul, shinebugs reactor, nuclear reactors, etc. and my dupes were walking in there with normal atmosuits, no radpills, no seafood, and I never got even minor radiation sickness.

They added a rad resistance difficulty slider to the game recently (Edit: currently on the testing branch). I am assuming all those "many" complaints will disappear when people realize they can make all their dupes literally immune to radiation and tune radiation up or down to a level they like.

9 hours ago, WhiteWind36 said:

Don't give out radiation too easy, and don't make it everyday problem, it is meant to be hard to produce a lots of radbolts, and not hard to protect your dupes if you are way before any radbolt production.

If everything stays as it is now...soon we will have atmo suits obsoleted by lead suits, ruining game balance overall.

That is your interpretation or preference, Klei seems to be sending out a different message. They literally spent weeks changing the game to make radiation a concern for dupes' safety.

If people decide to spam leadsuits instead of atmosuits, it will be a choice, not a necessity. Leadsuits are the most useful for extended work on the surface of outer asteroids only (superconductive, etc.), or inside nuclear reactors. Elsewhere, they are a luxury.

 

  

8 hours ago, KonfigSys said:

"The simplest I can think of would be to stock up a few hundred pills and deconstruct the fridge, this should last a while especially if denying rad pills to your dupes while they are in space since they don't need it."

Here we are talking about micromanagement. Load and deconstruct the fridge, deny rad pills every space trip(!!!) 

is it fun? I do not think so - grinding....

Do I have an extra space for rad pill fridge? Probably but I would rather use the space for other purposes. 

Just tell me what the extra fun we get from this. I always build medical facilities with medicine production - so it does not bring anything new here. 

That was a simple solution if you really cannot be bothered fitting an extra fridge inside your rocket - the latter will work and require 0 attention from you. Very compact, low initial cost, no maintenance cost, KISS, "set an forget" kind of solution that you claim to enjoy so much. I get that you have personal preferences in what you would like to use that 1x2 space for, but radiation is a design constraint and you have to consider it. If you reaaaaaally don't want to, there is this new slider for radiation resistance that was just implemented. It is there for that specific purpose - allowing everyone to adjust radiation levels to what suits their playstyle best (I mean this in a non offensive and non sarcastic way) (Edit: currently on the testing branch).

 

8 hours ago, KonfigSys said:

The space exploration gets delayed due to these extra hassles. I thought DLC had a focus to make space exploration much easier than in the classic game. I personally prefer meteorite shower to the high surface radiation. You have to be create with meteorites (automation, unique engineering solution); what the high rad at surface will do to the player creativity?

You mean that one time engineering challenge that you solved years ago, maybe improved a little bit over a few playthroughs or in sandbox mode, and then copy paste it mindlessly every time just because you have to? Imagine having to reproduce that on every single asteroid in the cluster. As it is now, on default settings, space exploration is still much easier than in the base game to setup. I don't know what else I can say to make you see that dupes can work on the surface of your starting planet, go to space, travel in space, stay in space forever and not have -any- problems with radiation whatsoever. They are not going to spend 100% of their cycle on the surface of your starting asteroid, and as you pointed out, radpills are simple as piece of cake to make, so no problem.

 

8 hours ago, KonfigSys said:

rad pill production? Just coal and the medical supply station - simple as a piece of cake.

radiation suits for working on the surface? Overkill.

rad suits to land on a new asteroid and build the platform? I tried to use the rad suit on the regolith asteroid (as I used a r/a rocket to reach the asteroid) and I could not  even build the rocket platform (not enough oxygen compared to the atmosuit).

I would support high radiation level at uranium ore mining, at nuclear plant site but surface(?)

I would suggest you using normal atmosuits for the dupes that will drop down and build the platform then? Undock filled suits from your base, put those in, then you can manually equip it before sending the dupes in the trailblazers. You will have your leadsuits and leadsuits dock in your rocket ready for long periods of work once the rocket has landed. You might tell me loading up those 2 extra atmosuits is micromanagy, and if you think so, then maybe you aren't playing the game it the mode that suits your playstyle best. Survival mode will require you to micromanage your duplicants to some extent, at the very least in some key moments of your playthroughs (like 1st landing on asteroids). There's no getting around that. Or, again, perhaps simply toning down radiation difficulty with the slider would give you a better gaming experience and let you focus on the engineering aspects of the game, less so on the survival aspects? (Edit: currently on the testing branch)

[WhiteWind36]

10 hours ago, KonfigSys said:

there are at least two types of ONI players - some like managing dupes (hence, they need emotions, traits, cloth, etc.) and others like the engineering side of the game.

Don't mean to be rude or something like that, but for first type of players there is rim world... Engineering and space travel is what makes ONI so special and attractive.  And micromanaging dupes, or player's wishes for more animations and emotions, clothes and other cosmetics it's more of a fashion thing IMHO. Never cared about that sort of things.

For me ONI is about what you can think of - what systems and automations you could set up, how you can combine game mechanics in some interesting way, what physics will work in your build, how it will interact in different ways. And how it looks?...meh doesn't matter as long as I can see something and understand what it is. Of course game is not for me only, so yeah, I do understand that most of the players want to have awesome looking game that's easy and fun.

How does radiation applies to it?... On first part there is something more to learn and to think of, but it's not really interacting with other game parts physics. As for the second it's gives nothing fun at all.