official Hard mode or like Master mode?

[Duck986]

7 minutes ago, ALCRD said:

Those additional 2 accessory slots count as "reward" for playing Master Mode aswell

maybe for someone, but not for me - i don't want to destroy myself just to get 2 more accessories.

[ALCRD]

11 minutes ago, Duck986 said:

maybe for someone, but not for me - i don't want to destroy myself just to get 2 more accessories.

Eh Master mode isn't really that big of a leap from Expert.

If you can handle Expert you can handle MM

 

For The Worthy on Master Mode on the other hand ... May Cthulhu have mercy on you..

[Yuuko]

One of the biggest problems with hard mode is the subjective nature of what is "hard."  What Klei has done - which I think is probably the best way to do it - is to just give us world-gen settings, and enable mods.  Some people wanted Uncompromising mode, and they made it.  You can turn out the lights, make it permanent summer, increase rate of challenging mobs etc already.  You can also play with restrictions, like try to not use food healing, or only use spear for combat, etc.

Basically what you consider "hard" is entirely up to you, and difficult to agree on with the player base at large.  So play your game how you want.

One thing I enjoy doing to make the game more challenging is disable my attack button.  Its fun for me.  What's fun for you may be different.

3 hours ago, x0-VERSUS-1y said:

In a sense Wilderness looks like an attempt at "Hard Mode" from KLei's side. But you know how many Wilderness servers exist atm out there? 52 out of 8596 (printscreen in spoiler, but anyone can check this via filters) - a meager 0.6%. Meaning overwhelming majority of players out there don't fancy pseudo-perma-death and losing all their map and character research/items progress. To a point this could be extrapolated into some theoretical "Hard Mode" where everything hostile would be buffed, environment conditions harsher, character stats, armor, abilities nerfed etc. Yet frankly I would assume players percentage will be even lower - again, as a comparison, one can simply check how many "Uncompromising mod" servers exist in server populace: 67 out of 8597 at moment of this post, respectively ~0.78% (details in spoiler below as well). With both somewhat-"hard mode" example having a less-than-1% user-base, you can confidently and objectively write there pretty much isn't an audience for such game-style. And this would weight-in quite a lot for KLei into investing resources needed to develop a similar mode (that almost no-one will actually use it). More-so since there are, as pointed above, alternatives to a certain extent: changing game settings, playing Wes, mods, self-imposed restrictions, etc.

  Reveal hidden contents

 

Total number of Wilderness Mode servers in existence atm of this post:

 

Total number of servers employing Uncompromising Mod atm of this post:

 

 

I always liked the idea of wilderness but its missing 1 thing in execution, which is DS style resing.  If they patched Wilderness to let you link with touch stones, craft meat effigies, and wear lga's it might get more traction.  with me at least.

[Toros]

Most players don’t even engage with the optional content already, and I don’t think Klei has the knowledge to effectively add a hard mode at this point.

You don’t need to be skilled at the game to develop for it, but the across the board rebalance required by a hard mode demands understanding of the current balance.

A hard mode would be a poor allocation of klei developer time in terms of adding value to a product, and I don’t believe the current devs have the necessary knowledge base to do it even if it wasn’t a poor value:time ratio to begin with.

[Duck986]

2 hours ago, ALCRD said:

Eh Master mode isn't really that big of a leap from Expert.

If you can handle Expert you can handle MM

 

For The Worthy on Master Mode on the other hand ... May Cthulhu have mercy on you..

I agree, it's not a big deal to complete a master mode, but what's the point if you don't get a good enough reward for your suffering? 

Expert gives you a dash ability after you destroy an EoC that flies like he is being fried alive, a pet that swims as a rocket after annihilating the 3rd phase of Fishron, a star-like item that grants an infinite flight after defeating that new source of adult drawings, etc. while making all mobs ~1.5 times stronger and upgrading their AI (you got me, a'ight?)

Master gives you the same but doubles mobs's stats instead and rewarding you with just decorative golden statues, pets, two new mounts and another acc. slot. 

 

 

I mean, if you like it - play it, that's just what I think 'bout it.

[Mike23Ua]

1 hour ago, Toros said:

Most players don’t even engage with the optional content already, and I don’t think Klei has the knowledge to effectively add a hard mode at this point.

You don’t need to be skilled at the game to develop for it, but the across the board rebalance required by a hard mode demands understanding of the current balance.

A hard mode would be a poor allocation of klei developer time in terms of adding value to a product, and I don’t believe the current devs have the necessary knowledge base to do it even if it wasn’t a poor value:time ratio to begin with.

What even IS a “Hard Mode” to begin with? Well let’s use State of Decay 2 as an example: if you’ve played this game then you know that the difficulty is based purely and totally on the things that happen in the game (as is any other game but this one makes it obvious) Why? Because like DS & DST State of Decay 2 has a “content slider” this lets you change various things about the game.

For example: on Easy vehicles appear on the map in excellent condition, with full gas tanks and useful stuff in their trunks, every lootable area is littered with resources, enemies deal less damage etc..

Now take that same game and change the difficulty slider to Nightmare mode: Vehicles are less common on the map and WHEN you find one it’s destroyed, needs several repair kits, and gas to get up and running, most building are low on resources to simulate that other survivors have already looted the area, enemies are more of a threat.

I use State of Decay 2 as my example because I directly effected the developmental stages of this game (and even have cool swag for helping shape it into what it is today..) But those sliders that are in State of Decay 2 only exist AT ALL because I saw the untapped Potential in the ones in DS the game I just so happened to be playing when stumbled upon the Indie game that was State of Decay & fell in love with it.

I can prove it: look at SoD 1 (the indie Xbox 360 game) and now compare that to SoD 2 Juggernaut Edition- that franchise is now owned by Microsoft.. it’s no longer the Indie franchise it once was- and PART of that success story is because of these world Gen settings you guys keep Ignoring for whatever reason..

The thing is: That menu of stuff you can toggle on/off/more/less in DS/DST was highly Unusual for a CONSOLE GAME- of course now I know that the reason why is because it’s a PC game ported to console but my point still stands: it was something new and different and at that time- wasn’t seen too often in many console games.

Just like how permanent death was once a highly frowned upon “no-no of ideas in the gaming industry” 

I need you all and KLEI Devs to understand that I fell in love with SoD & Dont Starve BECAUSE they went against what was available, they were exciting, they were new they took risks other games were too afraid to break away from the norm to do.

SoD 2 is an excellent example of how just a few “tweaks” to how things on the map spawn/work when changing a few available sliders- can drastically change the games difficulty.

We don’t need a “Hard Mode” in DST- what we NEED is for Klei to utilize the very same world Gen toggles everyone keeps dismissing, and to add “New” risky features like poison dart frog rain or giving us an OPTION to choose how often RNG Mob encounters happen to those toggles for players to ramp up the games difficulty.

DST does indeed have random mob encounters but, they happen very little to the point that many people aren’t even aware they exist.

During Hallowed Nights digging up Gravesites has a chance to spawn a Bat Wave.

or.. plucking open tumbleweeds can cause THIS to happen.

Now can you imagine if I happened to only be able to carry around 6 inventory slot items total, I was weighed down by what I was carrying RNG encounters like this could be toggled to happen MORE OFTEN AND this frog just unfortunately happened to be Hamlets Poison Dart variant? 
 

it’s the difference between SoD 2’s Easy/Nightmare world content sliders all over again..

I forgot to mention the most important part of my argument here: The TOGETHER part..

Klei made an entire QoL update that lets you now EXIT your worlds and turn on/off/more/less of the worlds features.

Prior to this QoL- the settings you choose for your world is what you were STUCK WITH for the entire duration of that worlds existence, this is no longer the case.. and if I disable summer to play with my noob friends and prevent them from burning down my base in the inexperience, I can now toggle summer back on after my noob friend stops playing.

The game is quite literally customizable to be as Easy or as Hard as you feel like playing it at any given time.

So- Why is Klei hesitant to add new, harder mobs, biomes, content etc.. that ISNT obscure as hell and requires 9 hours worth of set up work to even experience (yes I’m taking a direct Jab at the Eye of the Storm update)

If I can now turn most things OFF or ON at any time- why are we still rolling around on training wheels?

Edit: Its a Two-Way street- Things don’t just have to get Harder, it can also become easier… giving players a reduced health slider also allows for the option of increased health, If noob players struggle at managing Wortox’s only downside of having a harder time managing his sanity, they can now turn OFF any negative sanity drain effects and INCREASE the amount of Butterflies they can easily punch for free souls.

And in the Mobile version of DS: you can even turn off dying of Starvation or Freezing to learn the game at your own pace… without the added stress of dying.

Klei your bread & butter has been right in front of you all along, all I’m asking is people stop ignoring it and start realizing it.

[ALCRD]

59 minutes ago, Duck986 said:

but what's the point if you don't get a good enough reward for your suffering?

Didn't i already explain that in my previous post? 

2 accessory slots are more than enough of a reward for me to stick to MM since it's not really that much difficult compared to Expert.

Like i said if you can handle Expert you won't suffer in Master.

1 hour ago, Duck986 said:

doubles mobs's stats

Actually they are not doubled 50% more compare to Expert but not doubled.

 

[Maxposting]

1 hour ago, Mike23Ua said:

-pointless essay-

Nobody engages with the blatantly uninteresting sliders because it's literally not fun. For your several examples, poison dartfrogs and poison, are easily countered and are just merely uninteresting, essentially annoying mechanics. Please think about something from a normal perspective, not yours, only that way you can have an (almost) unbiased point.

[ALCRD]

1 hour ago, Duck986 said:

Master gives you the same

This is mostly why people were dissapointed in Master mode.

Not that it's difficult but because it's just same as Expert mode with some mostly cosmetic drops as rewards (except the accessory slots and mounts)

For The Worthy seed is the "true Master mode"

 

[HowlVoid]

Waste of developer time.

[Cr4zyFl4mes]

Me personally, i'd be happy if they added strong winds, fog, hay fever and flooding. It would make the game harder in an interesting way, though arguably more annyoing for somebody as well.

[shiffy]

Thank you guys for replying, here's some of my own opinion, I think Hard Mode is more toward a game experience designed for a specific group of people : dst veterans.

There are however, a lot of Dst new players, but i think, there are also lots of veterans, I mean, having them play the game rather than simply afk to get the skin makes a more meaningful total game time.

So, I created this topic is solely because i think that some veterans no longer play the game too often(not me, for example, some really good streamers), is because they deserve something better. this can be expressed in various different ways, like paid DLC, both beneficial to devs and players, how is it gonna work when this is a multiplayer game and there're lots of DLCs, well, maybe players have to download the entire(including DLC) content to their computer, but they can't access them unless they paid. that makes everyone on the same page, and can be connected with one another and play because they will be running a same version of the game.

Another way to express this, is probably a Expert mode, or Hard mode.

We know that Klei is good at designing game experience, and the standard dst experience is really good, it doesn't matter too much if u r a new player or a veteran player, standard forest is for everyone, u can fight, build , thrive , u can even survive on ur own, so dst can essentially be ds at this point. but, what i meant is , standard dst is for Everyone, a casual experience,get exhausted at work? play some dst, hard at homework? play some dst, and that of course , is a good thing.

but, at the sametime, it is less good when u have all veterans playing on the server. I've seen so many good base with lots of veterans playing with Tons(really Tons) of food and resources and dont starve can really be dont overeat sometime,  seeing that dst was supposed to be a survival game, not a building game and farming simulator,  even though it is really good to have them available,  but I still think that survival is the main point here, veterans no longer "survive", they are ,like, thriving, they have way passed the "survival" part, it is just like the phrase "base determines superstructure", in the past , we didn't have "base", we had to literally survive first, it's not possible can we even dare to consider a superstructure, but as soon as we become a  veteran player, the things that we consider is not survive any more, i want to clarify that i think everything is alright and really nice at current stage, but i wanted the game to still maintain some amount of survival experience at some point. 

standard experience:

"new player" -> "veterans" can be expressed as "problem finds them, how to solve the problem?" -> "go find problem, we already know the solution"

"hard mode or master mode" or whatever we should name them:

"veterans" can be expressed as "problem finds them, we know that u know the solution, but, do u really know?" (imaging celeste, we can already hyper dash in the beginning of the game, but we didn't know as a new player)

overall,I think user configured word setting's hard mode is a good feature, but not a really good experience.

since we really dont know how to make a hard game Fun to play. but i think klei does.

is there gonna be an official solution to this? game experience specifically for veterans?

what i envisioned a hard mode will be like that u have to exploit every tiny detail and have a good understanding in order to survive. or ,even better,  maybe u can no longer survive alone, speedrunning is no longer possible, you'll have to collaborate, then dst's "together" will become "together together". and you'll really starve with ur friends if u can't pull it off.

that's just my opinion, any further discussions would be genuinely welcomed.

 

[ALCRD]

33 minutes ago, Cr4zyFl4mes said:

Me personally, i'd be happy if they added strong winds, fog, hay fever and flooding. It would make the game harder in an interesting way, though arguably more annyoing for somebody as well.

Seen so many requests of various features from Hamlet and Shipwrecked to be brought back to DST .. they might aswell just port entire Hamlet and Shipwrecked into DST at some point lol.

[Mike23Ua]

6 hours ago, __IvoCZE__ said:

Nobody engages with the blatantly uninteresting sliders because it's literally not fun. For your several examples, poison dartfrogs and poison, are easily countered and are just merely uninteresting, essentially annoying mechanics. Please think about something from a normal perspective, not yours, only that way you can have an (almost) unbiased point.

Forget it man, I guess you just won’t ever understand. But the point I was TRYING to make is that any (and all) Harder content that Klei adds into the game will also be added to these World Gen settings. Anything “New & Exciting” would also be customizable through these toggles.

BECAUSE- if they just added in the Uncompromising Mod there will be PARTS of that people will love, and other parts they just want to turn completely OFF and never deal with again.

These toggles aren’t just to control what’s ALREADY IN THE GAME, they are also Place-Holders to control things that will be ADDED LATER if a harder mode/ or more difficult content is added to the game.

This INCLUDES but is not just limited to: New Weather Seasons, Or “Through the Ages” Style world progression, A whole new freaking server shard that takes place on the moon with low gravity- ALL OF IT is covered by these toggles.

So you can turn off what you DONT like, but still KEEP what you DO Like- Which is exactly why the “Uncompromising Mod Servers” Failed- They had many features people enjoyed, but also features people hated to the point they would rather ditch the Uncompromising Mod server altogether.

I make valid points.. I can only hope Klei staff see’s what I’m trying to say.

[SecretPizzaMan]

23 hours ago, Erineyes7 said:

You see here's the thing, DST Isn't Terraria, and the suggestions you mentioned would make the game overbearingly difficult, and not in a fun way. Forcing players into a playstyle is the same problem I had with Master mode (And for almost no reward besides the challenge btw). Making DST more difficult by nerfing items is a terrible way to go about making the game harder, bloating HP doesn't work either, that just leads to boring and tedious fights (Soloing bosses is enough evidence for me).

If you're seriously looking for something harder, try the Uncompromising mod, it's really good. It adds new mechanics to just about everything, and makes you switch up certain food sources and recipes. Enemies are given tons of new mechanics, each with their own new reward. The seasons are harsher, and the new stuff is really great. Seriously, shoutout to all the people who work on it, it's incredible!

(Look Mike before you say it, I know Console can't play mods, but we're just gonna have to move on rn man)

Cant play uncompromising mod because console, but from what I've seen it looks awesome.

[PandoPon]

This post reminded me of how dissapointed I was with Terraria 1.4.

Now im sad. Thanks op.

[Cr4zyFl4mes]

12 hours ago, ALCRD said:

Seen so many requests of various features from Hamlet and Shipwrecked to be brought back to DST .. they might aswell just port entire Hamlet and Shipwrecked into DST at some point lol.

Well, I think the weathers are very well designed.

As for mobs, I wouldn't mind most of the them ported, but if that means we wouldn't get new and original mobs(and other content) for DST, then no.

Shipwrecked sailing is a hard no for me. I enjoy the DST sailing much more.

Houses from Hamlet, only if they added them as a part of some yearly event.

My wish would be if they keep being inspired by their 2 DLCs like in the waterlogged update, but still bring something fresh. I would just really want some new weather system. The strong winds would be great to make autumn a bit more interesting. Maybe adding flu to the late 2+ autumn and having to drink tea or other options to prevent the flu would make it a bit more challenging. The fog makes it harder, cause you can't wear an armor slot, to be able to go faster. Therefore you have to change your playstyle for a bit and instead of tanking, you have to kite. Again I think it shouldn't come the first spring/autumn, only in the 2+. The flooding is the most controversial of these systems. Would make the game more grindy maybe. Still i think it was an interesting challenge and with some changes, it could find its place in DST as well.