The problem of auto vote-kick "No griefer" mod in KLei servers.

[Halberd]

First of all, I am not condone grief in general but after a lot of people have provided their stories and conclusions about the mod, I want to give the general context and facts about the matter and how it is a huge problem for Klei servers.

For anyone who doesn't play in Klei servers, THIS client mod tries to bottle-neck official Klei public servers by automatically kicking people out of the server if their steam ID or Klei ID lists in a blocklist. Not only causes public-shaming players on the list, but it also prevents people from playing multiplayer on the Klei servers if anyone installs the mod.

Tranoze, the creator of this mod, is hosting several blocklists on the internet containing the steam IDs and Klei IDs of many people. The links are made difficult to find but I managed to get them. The four blocklists are below:
 
https://www.dropbox.com/s/znf25nkhafa1v5z/blocklist.txt
https://www.dropbox.com/s/1ty3isbcuyhwtva/blocklist.txt
https://www.dropbox.com/s/ssw2dmwpp29axmy/blocklist.txt
https://www.dropbox.com/s/of1d70x2e8qqw3p/blocklist.txt
 
The modder when asked for that takes the IDs of peoplet, then adds them to one of those lists. The modder tries to backseat moderating free servers that don't belong to him. He may also have done that for personal uses with his group such as preserving the player slots for his friends or AFK- scripting to keep a server run indefinitely

Spoiler

https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/129108-poll-on-public-server-takeovers/
https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/128385-klei-should-add-more-in-game-method-to-recover-from-griefers-attack/?do=findComment&comment=1442604
https://ibb.co/BZLtky0

https://ibb.co/3ssBwH8
https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/115794-8200-days-public-server-and-still-running/page/2#comment-1308771_wrap
https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/128385-klei-should-add-more-in-game-method-to-recover-from-griefers-attack/?do=findComment&comment=1443507

These 3rd and 4th pieces of evidence (images + links) can be crossed with a line in the source code available in the file modmain.lua by downloading the mod. In the post, we see the "Raider" which is also used in the source code of the mod.
Line 20 of the mod :
["1ty3isbcuyhwtva"] = GetModConfigData("Raider"), -- 1 2 3,
matches the second dropbox URL for the second list.

Spoiler

https://discord.com/channels/615377918323064834/622665286423674912/707716892768338003
https://discord.com/channels/615377918323064834/615378489293406210/714061910517219349

That evidence matches line 19 in the source code of the mod, which is also the first list in the dropbox links above :
["znf25nkhafa1v5z"] = GetModConfigData("DSTBan"), -- 1 2 3,
 
Here we can see the mod using the list of the group "DST" which is hosting the "DST" dedicated servers such as "DST Germany" "DST United Kingdom" etc. While it should be normal for anyone to get a ban from their servers if they violated the group rule or their decision to do so, the group rule and evidence are not solid for a PERMANENT ban in Klei servers. Their standard and reason they share their ban list are also questionable: They hide the ban list to the regulars but they share players Klei ID and steam URL (the group mention nothing about they SENT players private information and gameplay data to a third party mod) to a problematic modder which him and his group is violated their rules (blocking portals, intentionally sabotaging or crashing the server, monopolizing or preventing others from accessing a valuable or necessary resource, abusing vote kicks or using the vote kick feature to prevent people from joining servers). Finally, one of their admin can be seen in this video abuse vote kick system, crashing Klei servers, and doing shenanigans in Klei server within the server author of the mod was hostage (they refuse to ban her as well)

Spoiler

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AKEQDSj1Gk4&feature=emb_title
https://discord.com/channels/615377918323064834/622390683747090437/873917113750913044

The "Raider" ban list is even more nonsense since it provided ZERO proof. The group "Raider" - assume it is "Server Raider" group, is straight-up a griefing group that was block portal with tentacle, maze, abused vote kicked, hostage servers before Klei implemented portal protection (none of the Raider members is in the list, of course). THIS MOD IS LIKELY THE RESULT OF SUCH IMPLEMENT, FOR THESE PRO GRIEFERS TO GATE-KEEPING SERVERS BY KICKING EVERYONE OUT.
If moderation must be done it should be up to the Klei to moderate it (the hosts of the servers). In this case, a person external to Klei (and to servers hosted by people in-game) is applying a harmful moderation on public servers not belonging to them by distributing a mod and letting the entire community use it. People shouldn't be prevented from playing because someone external to the game's development judging them without a fair system. The moderation appears to be ill - judge. By looking at the "Raider" list, we can see arbitrarily decided reasons without any evidence to back up or straight up NO reason.

Spoiler

Holding torches is equal to burning the base. Lightning, red hound, wildfire: "Am I a joke to you?" TELL ME IF THESE PEOPLE ARE NOT GETTING OUT OF HANDS.

For how the mod works, servers have a built-in kicking system by default . The mod is automatically making people using it throwing kicks very fast towards the players on the list, even while their game is loading (which forces them out inside the loading screen). People in the list have to find the mod's page by themself and since they were kicked during the loading screen they don't even have a chance to know the people using the mod and where they have to go, and for what reason that kick happens. This is the major problem. Targetted accounts (form both lists), with hours of playtime ranging from 2.6h to 1000+h, ban form 5 years ago, and some don't speak English, in the sample I took, are prevented to play on the Klei servers by any people using the mod because those two groups obviously won't bother about anyone they add and just want petty revenge. It is very likely the "banned" players don't know why they are banned and neither from when, and the uninformed users of this discriminating mod won't see the real issue behind it which is handled by lazy corrupted people.

Spoiler

https://steamcommunity.com/workshop/filedetails/discussion/2007563445/2569815696842789897/#c3053987085388736386
https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/132586-add-a-report-feature-directly-to-the-game-please/
https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/132603-what-did-i-do-wrong/

I don't know it much, but in the general context of applying moderation, I suppose someone being ban from somewhere should be told in advance. The reason and duration should be clear and there will be a given place to attempt an appeal. Especially not from someone outside of Klei's company with bad intentions and reputation. It costs time and money to purchase the game, to obtain characters and cosmetic skins. When blocking a player off the server service, the mod takes money from both the customer and Klei assumes the player could be innocent or getting ban over trivial things.

In conclusion, I would like to have answers: Is this mod is violated their community standard by harassing players that try to use Klei services? Is this alright to Klei that their players as the result of this mod are being public shaming, discriminated and harassed by a scummy petty minority group of "elite" player that tries to back-seat moderating Klei servers for personal uses? Should Klei owners of both the game and servers moderate or implement an actual feature for their server to stop extreme vote-kick abuse and griefing?

[Superlucas1231]

Didn't a thread about the same topic got locked literally a few hours ago? lol

Ngl though, the mod is really sketchy and I can defiantly see a slippery slope. I personally don't like the idea of countering the problem of griefers with another problem of having a system that is run by a bunch of randos who can potentially get you kick/ban from pubs. 

idk, Klei could tack on "time out" timer after someone is kicked out of a pub to discourage greifing, but would probably lead to people abusing it. 

At this point, it's really hard to find a way to counter both greifing and black list mod without some sort of loophole still present. 

[MondayNight]

Other random griefer's disposable sock-account complaining about basically being on a shared community list of griefers, now used by some Steam Workshop mod to kick past&present griefers from KLei official servers? My-my, how the shenanigans continue. Yeah, another griefer's thread was only-but some hours ago closed. Seems to be the classic run-of-the-mill burning/hammering griefers vs the "taking KLei official servers hostage" griefers by this point. Grab the popcorn, fellas!

Spoiler

Btw, @HagonIsTheMan - since previous thread got closed before I could add my 2 cents in its insanity: is not "especially when you say you've never talked to a griefer outside of the server they griefed you in" the case - au countraire: I talked/interacted outside of game (on Steam/KLei forums, chat, etc) with griefer specimens and to-a-mark they were exactly the "very questionable persons" with named "numerous long-term issues" one would expect them to be given their crappy in-game behavior. It extends in general irl. Also mentioned griefer wasn't kicked/acted in revenge just once. From his own words, it was "very few times"  - whatever it means (5-10-20-50?! Take a guess!) - not related to that particular revenge-griefing situation. Most likely OP of that thread is just another "bundle of joy" taking pleasure from others' suffering/humiliation. "Wonderful" players to have around in pubs, now getting precisely what their actions predisposed them to. Karma one would even say.

 

[Baark0]

tldr

[Halberd]

2 hours ago, x0-VERSUS-1y said:

Other random griefer's disposable sock-account complaining about basically being on a shared community list of griefers, now used by some Steam Workshop mod to kick past&present griefers from KLei official servers? My-my, how the shenanigans continue. Yeah, another griefer's thread was only-but some hours ago closed. Seems to be the classic run-of-the-mill burning/hammering griefers vs the "taking KLei official servers hostage" griefers by this point. Grab the popcorn, fellas!

  Reveal hidden contents

Btw, @HagonIsTheMan - since previous thread got closed before I could add my 2 cents in its insanity: is not "especially when you say you've never talked to a griefer outside of the server they griefed you in" the case - au countraire: I talked/interacted outside of game (on Steam/KLei forums, chat, etc) with griefer specimens and to-a-mark they were exactly the "very questionable persons" with named "numerous long-term issues" one would expect them to be given their crappy in-game behavior. It extends in general irl. Also mentioned griefer wasn't kicked/acted in revenge just once. From his own words, it was "very few times"  - whatever it means (5-10-20-50?! Take a guess!) - not related to that particular revenge-griefing situation. Most likely OP of that thread is just another "bundle of joy" taking pleasure from others' suffering/humiliation. "Wonderful" players to have around in pubs, now getting precisely what their actions predisposed them to. Karma one would even say.

 

I know what it looks like but I can assure you this is not another griefer rant. I can provide you my steam URL and Klei ID, you can check it in those two blocklists. 

Other thread does not provide any in-game context or how they obtain the ban list. The fact is only a small proportion of the people in the ban list manage to find where to get unban. As long as they don't know why they got kick they will forever be ban from Klei servers. 

Can you answer me that is it ok to spam kick anyone and permanently ban them just because they might: Hold a torch inside the server? Used one panflute? Burnt some science machine? kicked ONE member of these petty groups? Cleared a hound setpiece? Or some personal shenanigan with the modder and he decided to add a "burning base" reason to ban them off?

What did a person with 2.6 hours possibly do to deserve to be kicked before they were finished loading? What is the worst thing anyone could do to deserve a ban for more than 5 years?

For my two cents of story, I was one of the countless players that got spawn kill during the "Server Raider" group blocked portal in Clayfish and Ipsguiggle . Time after time, they would do it again and again Klei never addressed the situation until recently. Are you telling me, that the same people right now already contribute to the community a mod to gatekeeping people out after their favorite method is eliminated? Isn't it ironic the worst group of griefers ever exists in Klei servers made a mod proclaim to "Keep griefers out"?

None of the bans in the Raider list has any proof to back it up but here is the evidence these group players and an admin of DST group griefing Klei servers, the regular has to tread carefully while playing but they can do anything and will never get any punishment. How is this even fair to everyone?

 

Spoiler

Think about it, the mod never meant to ban griefer, it is a replacement for spawn killed players. And I really want the answer form Klei is this finally violated their community standard.

 

[Captain_Rage]

Wouldn't this be equivalent to hosting a public game with a password or running a dedicated public server with a whitelist? It also excludes players from joining, for whatever reasons (that the host / administrator imposes). It is a not a human right to join publicly hosted games that a private person is running, lol.

That being said, these anti-griefing tools sound worse than any griefing I can think of. I would never join a server that uses (such) mods.

[Halberd]

16 minutes ago, Captain_Rage said:

Wouldn't this be equivalent to hosting a public game with a password or running a dedicated public server with a whitelist?

Except it is not? Hosted servers are owner private property they can do whatever they wish with it. Klei servers are free and belong to Klei. Everyone pays for the game and get access to it, so why a modder doesn't even play the game any more can decided who has the right to play in Klei servers?

[ALCRD]

Well it may be a good idea to report the mod via report button in its Steam workshop page and provide as much detail as possible. 

Cause i admit the way the mod works is really sketchy.

[Captain_Rage]

Oh, I didn't realize the mod was being used on Klei's public server. Yes, that changes things and makes it potentially scummy. Potentially. That means that people who has the mod installed will automatically vote-kick players according to a list that only a few people have control over? Sounds very prone to abuse. One thing is certain: machine-enforced means to handle griefers and "griefers" is more than likely to end up as a cesspool.

[l_siren]

I have a better solution for you, use this alternative account of yours to play without trolling anyone anymore, you will find yourself playing on klei officials with others again and happily ever after. 

[ALCRD]

7 minutes ago, Razer_ said:

I have a better solution for you, use this alternative account of yours to play without trolling anyone anymore, you will find yourself playing on klei officials with others again and happily ever after. 

Problem is this mod can be easily abused by trolls aswell.

Vote kick abusing by trolls happened before and this is just giving them another toy to play with and cause even more malice.

[Maxposting]

inb4 this gets locked again

Didn't think we would get a new sequel of this comedy so soon.

[blizstorm]

Ah, the previous thread got locked so fast that I didnt get to join

For those that disagree with the mod, do not use it then

As for why the mod is gaining acceptance, perhaps because the mod has been accurate enough to gain acceptance? If the mod has been blacklisting random users, why would 394 players be using a lousy mod then?

As for banlists you disagree with

Use the banlist if you like the banlist, do not use the specific banlis if you do not like them., the banlists are in the options for you to choose which one you want to use.

As for those concerned about dictatorship

Use the mods if the mod if it has been truthful for you, do not use the mod if the mod is a power abuse for you

As for those who think that the voters are kicking too fast

Voters decide when to vote, you can vote slower if you want. But the decision is democratic

As for those concerned about the expiry of bans, I think the mod is gradually moving in the right direction. the latest bans seem to come with last griefed date and grief count, like "last 02-Sep-21, 1 grief. burning base". The players would then get more information on whether if they want to kick a past griefer

3 hours ago, Halberd said:

Except it is not? Hosted servers are owner private property they can do whatever they wish with it. Klei servers are free and belong to Klei. Everyone pays for the game and get access to it, so why a modder doesn't even play the game any more can decided who has the right to play in Klei servers?

The modder doesnt get to decide who has the right to play in klei server. The players voted democratically based on the mod information. The voters decided to trust the mods because it has been trustworthy so far?

You seem to be trying hard to shoehorn the argument that this blacklist mod is created to block random players out. If this indeed the purpose, a whitelisting system should be used rather than a blacklist

[l_siren]

30 minutes ago, ALCRD said:

Problem is this mod can be easily abused by trolls aswell.

Vote kick abusing by trolls happens and this is just giving them another toy to cause more malice.

Since Halberd clearly mentioned that the banlist is centrally maintained by the mod developer, could you tell me how a troll would hack/manipulate that banlist on dropbox to add innocent players for kicking? Maybe you are an experienced cyber security engineer, which I would be really willing to learn how to manipulate other person's dropbox content from you (just for safety purpose and report the bug to dropbox developers to patch it) 

If you are implying the power of the mod developper to add innocent player to that banlist is unchecked, and could potential lead to him abusing the power, so on the one side of the problem, there are already plenty of trolls roaming freely abusing klei's lack of anti-troll system to grief the general public player, on the other side of the problem, there might be potentially power abusing happening in the future. As a member of the general public player, given the fact that klei hasn't build up its own anti-troll system yet, I would for now weigh in suppressing the current problem, and deal with second problem when that actually happens.

[Gibberson]

11 minutes ago, blizstorm said:

The modder doesnt get to decide who has the right to play in klei server. The players voted democratically based on the mod information. The voters decided to trust the mods because it has been trustworthy so far?

The voting was so democratic that they we're kicked before even loading in to speak.

[ALCRD]

9 minutes ago, Razer_ said:

Since Helbard clearly mentioned that the banlist is centrally maintained by the mod developer, could you tell me how a troll would hack/manipulate that banlist on dropbox to add innocent players for kicking? Maybe you are an experienced cyber security engineer, which I would be really willing to learn how to manipulate other person's dropbox content from you

If you are implying the power of the mod developper to add innocent player to that banlist is unchecked, and could potential lead to him abusing the power, so on the one side of the problem, there are already plenty of trolls roaming freely abusing klei's lack of anti-troll system to grief the general public player, on the other side of the problem, there might be potentially power abusing happening in the future. As a member of the general public player, given the fact that klei hasn't build up its own anti-troll system yet, I would for now weigh in suppressing the current problem, and deal with second problem when that actually happens.

Thing is that i am most worried about. Quite few people play DST and anyone can use this mod and add anyone to banlist. As someone who once got framed and voted off by griefer for trying to get rid of said griefer. I don't trust people's judgement or softwares like this to not be abused to hell and back.

Ban appeals take time from what i seen on mod page and author flatout admits that he will only appeal bans when he has time. And did you see the size or this stinkin banlist?

 

What's stopping trolls to just re-add "innocent" people on the banlist with this mod and frame unaware people more easily?

Its a good idea but poorly executed and mark my words it will end up like L4D vote kick but much worse.

 

People cannot be trusted with tools like this.

[blizstorm]

2 minutes ago, Gibberson said:

The voting was so democratic that they we're kicked before even loading in to speak.

so in your opinion, losing in a vote=undemocratic? In some democracy, people of vested interest, like convict, do not get to vote. Voters often also have to act based on limited information.

You have around 20 seconds to speak before you were booted. if that is not enough, you can try again 10 minutes later for another block of 20 second. If this system of speaking is not enough, perhaps Klei should give more protected free speech to these joiner then... The mod didnt force voters to complete the vote in 20 seconds, but it seems like voters think that the time is sufficient

[Gibberson]

1 minute ago, blizstorm said:

so in your opinion, losing in a vote=undemocratic? In some democracy, people of vested interest, like convict, do not get to vote. Voters often also have to act based on limited information.

You have around 20 seconds to speak before you were booted. if that is not enough, you can try again 10 minutes later for another block of 20 second. If this system of speaking is not enough, perhaps Klei should give more protected free speech to these joiner then... The mod didnt force voters to complete the vote in 20 seconds, but it seems like voters think that the time is sufficient

If you didn't know, you can't even get to the character select screen before the mod auto detects you and kicks you out while people hive mind vote without any information.

[l_siren]

13 minutes ago, ALCRD said:

Thing is that i am most worried about. Quite few people play DST and anyone can use this mod and add anyone to banlist. As someone who once got framed and voted off by griefer for trying to get rid of said griefer. I don't trust people's judgement or softwares like this to not be abused to hell and back.

Ban appeals take time from what i seen on mod page and author flatout admits that he will only appeal bans when he has time. And did you see the size or this stinkin banlist?

 

What's stopping trolls to just re-add "innocent" people on the banlist with this mod and frame unaware people more easily?

Its a good idea but poorly executed and mark my words it will end up like L4D vote kick but much worse.

 

People cannot be trusted with tools like this.

Still, you haven't explained yet, how do trolls (re-)add innocent people to the banlist when they are not the banlist owner? Do you agree your concerns can be solved if klei implement a 'vote to ban' server command option (i.e. banlist centrally maintained by klei or klei appointed personnel; if someone got voted once and verified for griefing, block him from entering public servers for a week; if twice, block for a month; trice for a year; etc.)? If so, why not suggests to klei developers to implement such an option rather than trying to demeaning one tool that is at least currently working when dealing with trolls? I for one would join you in such suggestions to klei developers. 

[Gibberson]

4 minutes ago, Razer_ said:

Still, you haven't explained yet, how do trolls (re-)add innocent people to the banlist when they are not the banlist owner? Do you agree your concerns can be solved if klei implement a 'vote to ban' server command option (i.e. banlist centrally maintained by klei or klei appointed personnel; if someone got voted once and verified for griefing, block him from entering public servers for a week; if twice, block for a month; trice for a year; etc.)? If so, why not suggests to klei developers to implement such an option rather than trying to demeaning one tool that is at least currently working when dealing with trolls? I for one would join you in such suggestions to klei developers. 

Trolls add people to the banlist because the mod owner is paranoid and gullible. meaning he adds people to the list even without real evidence.

As for your suggestion for the centrally maintained by klei option, I agree whole heartedly with that because there would be a set duration by klei and not just at the mercy of 1 mod creator who adds more and more to a growing blacklist.

[ALCRD]

18 minutes ago, Razer_ said:

Still, you haven't explained yet, how do trolls (re-)add innocent people to the banlist when they are not the banlist owner? Do you agree your concerns can be solved if klei implement a 'vote to ban' server command option (i.e. banlist centrally maintained by klei or klei appointed personnel; if someone got voted once and verified for griefing, block him from entering public servers for a week; if twice, block for a month; trice for a year; etc.)? If so, why not suggests to klei developers to implement such an option rather than trying to demeaning one tool that is at least currently working when dealing with trolls? I for one would join you in such suggestions to klei developers. 

I havent explained cause i am the one legit asking what's stopping this mod from getting abused by trolls and framing random people or people who they don't like with this mod?

And then people blindly trusting this mod and voting yes cause mod said so without doing any research.

I am asking how does this work and how is this supposed to be "safe" from abuse? 

10 minutes ago, Gibberson said:

Trolls add people to the banlist because the mod owner is paranoid and gullible. meaning he adds people to the list even without real evidence.

Yea pretty much this. Human factor is always the biggest flaw of "mods" like this.

[l_siren]

9 minutes ago, Gibberson said:

Trolls add people to the banlist because the mod owner is paranoid and gullible. meaning he adds people to the list even without real evidence.

As for your suggestion for the centrally maintained by klei option, I agree whole heartedly with that because there would be a set duration by klei and not just at the mercy of 1 mod creator who adds more and more to a growing blacklist.

So let's work together on the suggestion for klei DST developers to implement the 'vote to ban' server command option (i.e. banlist centrally maintained by klei or klei appointed personnel; if someone got voted once and verified for griefing, block him from entering public servers for a week; if twice, block for a month; thrice for a year; etc.). Hit the like button to gain klei developers notice on this suggestion. Or ask this post creator to create a new post advocating this suggestion and we top up that post

[Gibberson]

1 minute ago, Razer_ said:

So let's work together on the suggestion for klei DST developers to implement the 'vote to ban' server command option (i.e. banlist centrally maintained by klei or klei appointed personnel; if someone got voted once and verified for griefing, block him from entering public servers for a week; if twice, block for a month; thrice for a year; etc.). Hit the like button to gain klei developers notice on this suggestion. Or ask this post creator to create a new post advocating this suggestion and we top up that post

Agreed.

[Freedwig]

another post
look at how the griefers standing back to back, trying their best to lie and make them look like victim here
i'm not even mad, i am totally touched. this is what pure love and friendship look like
also rip klei public servers for having these things ruin it

[Halberd]

I guess this is my fault when I put everything in spoilers and people keep pump out incorrect information.

Quote

Trusty Mod.

The Raider ban list is complete trash. It provided zero evidence except for "trust me bro" source. When they decide to put a reason for griefing look at this:

How is this supposed to be trusty? When did a player holding a torch equal to griefing? "Possible burning base"? All of these could be made up, a half-hearted text "last xx-xx-xx, x grief. burning base" does not prove a player is griefing!
Also, all their "friends" got special treatment. They are the ones who put their griefing adventure on their steam profiles and youtube like a trophy. So that is not enough to ban but the guy that has 2.6 hours should be block off servers forever? If the mod is supposed to be neutral and helping improving how people can play on the Klei servers, why aren't those griefers in the banlists?

Quote

The players voted democratically.

So as long as the majority vote is taking place it's justified, right? Then explain to me why the hell so many people are getting ban over vote kick and vote regen? Because it is not the groupies who vote it? Hypocrite much?

And not my problem when a lazy modder active three times per year and did a lousy job. That's probably what he is hiding form people + trying to poorly disguise a link of data sent on a 3rd party website without the consent of anyone listed there, since they didn't even get to know that. The ban list is coming from a griefer group and scummy DST group admins, why would I bother to help them? They spawn-killed me in Clayfish and Ipsguiggle. Their nature and intention are clear to me.

Once again, the mod kicks players during loading screen, when all players present in the server vote yes. Having nearly 400 people subscribe to the mod isn't a good thing or it provides any credential to the mod. People who install the mod are already clinical and they would all vote yes to kicked people before they are done loading. It is a disaster as much as when blocking portal griefers would spawn kill everyone.

I am not here to ask griefers to stop griefing. I want answers are these people going to far to the point of violated community standard. And if these extreme servers gatekeeping allows to exist then why shouldn't Klei moderate their own server for the benefit of everyone.