Spaced Out: Resin, Diamond Press and Engines

[spinningtime7]

Firstly Hello, I am new to this forum and I am enjoying ONI Spaced out so far. However, there are certain things that need to be balanced in the Spaced out Content. I will be talking about the resin, the diamond press and the rocket engines.

Experiment 52B (Resin)

So the main way to get resin in this DLC (to make visco-gel for liquid lock) is to feed 100.000 kCal to that gluttonous tree. I understand that the purpose of that tree is to act as a calorie sink but that forces us to design an infrastructure solely for the sake of getting sufficient amount of resin.

• so I need a tank containing 150 fed pacus will produce 100 omellete daily, each containing 2800 kcal, which means 280000/ cycle
• Another example. a domesticated sleet wheat will produce 800 kcal/cycle if inside greenhouse.  4 rooms of greenhouses with each room containing 14 plants will yield 44800 kcal/cycle. (I haven't tested the grubgrub and the exuberant mutated plant yet).

The thing is that for all of the trouble, we only get 12.5 kg of isoresin/ 100000 kcal. 200 kg of visco gel (2 tile height liquid lock) requires 70 kg of isoresin which means 600.000 kcal. C'mon man, we need to spend 600000 just to make 1 liquid lock. That is simply not worth it or even fun. I might as well be committed to using the crude method of liquid lock and forget about resin. 

Diamond Press

At this stage, we require 1000 Radbolts to convert 100 kg of refined carbon into 100 kg of diamond. In comparison, I can fully power a radbolt rocket (which is overall better than the hydrogen rocket) by only using 4800 radbolts. That is way too long to produce an 800 kg diamond tempshift plate. My suggestion is to convert refined carbon into diamond at a 25% efficiency. I think it make sense because the key word is compressing coal into a smaller, denser material. However, we can process as much as 4 tons of refined carbon at once. To illustrate:

• 4000 kg of refined carbon into 1000 kg of diamond, requiring the same time, radbolt and energy.

Rebalancing the Engines in general

Radbolt engines is way too good. It has a huge fuel capacity. Meanwhile, hydrogen engine, which requires harder to make fuel need to install 2 large fuel tank and a liquid oxidizer tank in order to travel long distance. That pretty much reduces the available module height by a lot from the oxidizer and fuel tank alone. Making liquid hydrogen and oxygen is also more difficult compared to radbolt. I suggest that the hydrogen engine get a buff from either reducing the necessary module height (engine, liquid fuel and oxidizer tank) as well as reducing the required fuel/tile from 100 kg/tile to 75/tile.

Carbon dioxide engine, I believe should be made more inefficient because at this point it is way too easy to refuel the engine. I suggest that the CO2 fuel consumption should be quadrupled.

Conclusion

In a nutshell, my suggestions are:

• Increase the amount of resins that we get from 100000 kcal of food (5 times would be perfect)
• Make the Diamond press process 4 tons of refined carbon at once to get 1 ton of diamond, keeping the same amount of energy and radbolt requirement.
• Buff the hydrogen engine (by reducing module heights, and fuel/tile), and nerf the carbon dioxide engine (100 kg CO2 per tile as opposed to 25).

Thank you for reading. Do leave a comment about what you think of my feedback.

[Sasza22]

Rockets are getting a balance pass:

 

[kisukin]

You showed points that can be improved, maybe the shape can be different. Let's do it by steps.

Experiment 52-B : Isoresin breaks some game mechanics (viscogel allows for some interesting settings and insulation is extremely efficient , but not necessary). Maybe if we had other, simpler compounds (like a gum: resin and sucrose or a mixture with plastic and resin for beautiful constructions or that would resist a little more heat) the interest would increase.

The planetoid setup is interesting: a short space( you quickly run out of options) and a decent challenge if you decide to colonize it (I usually watch other players just drop the food, harvesting the resin and leaving). I belive if we have some interactions in the planetoid ( or with the experiment ) or near POI could make it more interesting.

Diamond Press : Less Rads , more power , more heat output diamond , a little longer process ( instead decrease ratio ) , perfect.

Rebalance Engines : Maybe the hard point to balance. I agree with the radbolt engine and H2. About the CO2, instead increase the volume ( if you want nerf ) , add a process or 2 ( instead gas use liquid or solid CO2 ).

[spinningtime7]

6 hours ago, kisukin said:

Experiment 52-B : Isoresin breaks some game mechanics (viscogel allows for some interesting settings and insulation is extremely efficient , but not necessary). Maybe if we had other, simpler compounds (like a gum: resin and sucrose or a mixture with plastic and resin for beautiful constructions or that would resist a little more heat) the interest would increase.

The planetoid setup is interesting: a short space( you quickly run out of options) and a decent challenge if you decide to colonize it (I usually watch other players just drop the food, harvesting the resin and leaving). I belive if we have some interactions in the planetoid ( or with the experiment ) or near POI could make it more interesting.

 

I see. More interactions with the planet instead of just dropping food? I also like the idea of more recipes involving resin but given how grindy it is to secure a sufficient amount of resin, I think I will decide to just not bother.

Quote

Diamond Press : Less Rads , more power , more heat output diamond , a little longer process ( instead decrease ratio ) , perfect.

I don't mind more power or more heat, so long I can process more than 100 kg refined carbon into diamonds. 

Quote

Rebalance Engines : Maybe the hard point to balance. I agree with the radbolt engine and H2. About the CO2, instead increase the volume ( if you want nerf ) , add a process or 2 ( instead gas use liquid or solid CO2 )

I saw the thread regarding the rebalancing that the engine going to get in the next update. At least H2 engine is getting the boost it so badly deserved. So I am cool.

But requiring liquid CO2 in the early game without supercoolant is not going to be noob-friendly. It is so much simpler to just dump more waste CO2 into engine rather than having it go through cooling. I mean, you require 75 kg/tile for the small petroleum engine, equivalent to 150 kg of CO2 if you utilize slickster to convert it. I feel like it makes more sense to just increase the required fuel (easier to manage) as opposed to cooling it (Very very hard in the beginning). You can dump the CO2 in the upper crust of the starting planet (which has an initial temp of -50 C, but it is still way more troublesome than just pumping more fuel.

[AndreyKl]

On 9/3/2021 at 4:28 PM, spinningtime7 said:

I think it make sense because the key word is compressing coal into a smaller, denser material.

RL compressing does not reduce mass, only size. If you compress 1t of carbon, it still stays 1t of carbon, just in smaller volume. 

Also simply deleing 3t of carbon will add an effective heat deletion mechanics. The remaining mass should be outputted as something.

[spinningtime7]

20 hours ago, AndreyKl said:

RL compressing does not reduce mass, only size. If you compress 1t of carbon, it still stays 1t of carbon, just in smaller volume. 

Also simply deleing 3t of carbon will add an effective heat deletion mechanics. The remaining mass should be outputted as something.

Ah yeah, compressing does not destroy the mass. I forgot about it.

I think I am complaining about the diamond press because of how eager I want to mass produce diamond for Diamond tempshift plate. But, now I have learned to rely on Igneous and Granite tempshift plate for my needs. So since I am only using diamond for my drillcone (which I rarely use), I probably only want the diamond press to increase the amount of refined coal it process at one time while keeping the radbolt and energy requirement (maybe 400 kg of refined carbon from 100 kg)?

 

[misotoma]

On 9/3/2021 at 3:05 PM, kisukin said:

but not necessary

I’ve been reading this in ONI forums a lot lately now. It’s becoming detrimental to think in this manner for the games development. If it’s not necessary then just don’t even add it into the game because returning to square one, you require a whole freaking infrastructure to enable you to produce resources. This also incurs lag in the game which reduces the quality overall. If it’s not necessary indeed; then just please remove it so we don’t have to wander aimlessly for hundreds of cycles and figure out it wasn’t worth the time, effort and lag. Or you can make all that effort we put into creating resources and struggling with lag, actually feel rewarding. Base game, all that we required for the resource was time and the fuel needed for the rocket to recover resources. Now, not only do we not get to play with isoresin with the freedom we had before but we have to build crazy infrastructures in order to obtain it (besides the time investment)

[kisukin]

I understand you point of view @misotoma . When i say "but not necessary" is more "you have a option to do , but not tied to it" . If you look at game mechanics in ONI , you have a lot of mechanics tied in each other and its fun. Having extra options increase the playability and allow you do things different. If you consider isoresin as a late game element in a single player game , i didn´t see any problem give the player some liberty or oportunity to use it . Depending of the point you look , you could have : in the process - for now "make isoresin isn´t fun" . if you look for the results " the byproducts of isoresin are amazing." . In my opinion , as i said before , considering all you have said about the process, even if not necessary, could be more rewarding process ( not the product by itself , but for having fun in the process) , but this imply more considerations of developers about it.

In short about isoresin, we have a set of actions for something very restricted to the endgame, where some players don't feel rewarded for the effort. 

[KonfigSys]

I had all thermal tiles made of insulation in the vanilla game. It was quite easy to obtain isoresin from the first two asteroids.

It is more difficult to get isoresin in the DLC but do we really need it so badly?

I can see only one main usage where we badly need insulated pipes - for liquid hydrogen and oxygen. it is very rewarding to replace ceramic pipes with insulated ones as it completely removes any automation needed to cycle the liquids. Ceramic is good for everything else. 

Viscogel - yeah, by the time you get to that you have everything completed with autolocks/waterlocks. I simply loaded the mod for airtight doors and forgot about viscogel.

I agree that they can change the ratio of isoresin production or add isoresin to space POIs like they did for fulleren.

diamond press - at least it gives one more purpose to build a nuclear reactor for radbolt generation. Probably rebalance is needed as I can see that Klei severely reduced amount of diggable diamonds on asteroids. So diamond tempshift plates are no more available till the late game stage.

I would not touch CO2 engine - it is in a good spot for early space exploration currently.

Hydrogen engine definitely need some added benefits - I think that they should increase the range without a need for extra tanks.

same for petrol as both are good for space mining and adding cargo modules drastically limits their height so no extra fuel modules can be fitted. 

Currently you cannot mine all POIs from one asteroid using hydrogen or petrol and you have to build set-ups for them on two-three asteroids. There is no room for that at these small asteroids.

 

 

[JaxckLl]

I suggested this in another thread just now for the Petrol rocket, but it would also work for Hydrogen. Give it a "gasping" function whereby speed falls off dramatically but range increases similarly dramatically when fuel is low. Effectively you get a safety net when using your engine that means so long as it is in space, it can always reach its home pad. This would give Petrol/Hydrogen a significant step up because you'd always be able to use its full range without needing to rebuild complex & expensive infrastructure on every asteroid.

Otherwise I agree with KonfigSys. CO2 & Steam are in a really good place right now, and early game rocketry is a viable concept.

Other thoughts,

• Honestly, I wouldn't be upset if Viscogel was removed from regular gameplay. To my mind it's the primary reason Resin is so expensive since as Konfig pointed out it just breaks the game. Either that or its liquid lock usage gets turned into a building with other resource requirements. If a Viscogel liquid lock cost say 1000W to operate then it would fit much more smoothly into the overall game balance.
• Perhaps the Diamond Press can also make Sapphires & Rubies for use in lasers. If it didn't already exist, that's what I would have suggested for interplanetary automation. Could also be a way to open up space mining a bit more, giving you the option of different heads (Diamond Drill, Blue/Red Laser) with efficiency varying depending on the target resource. Additionally this could be a way to make space mining available earlier in the tech tree while still being balanced for late game.
• For an example of what I mean, you might get Blue lasers early allowing you to use starter-type rockets to mine space deposits for Dirt or Phosphorous. Next you get Red Lasers, unlocking some harder materials such as Copper or Gold. Finally you can get the Diamond Drill, enabling all material types but can chew up softer materials such as Dirt destroying them in the process. All three gem types are only renewable via the Diamond Press, requiring Refined Carbon plus some additional Aluminium for Sapphires & Rubies. Now there's a game of picking the appropriate rocket for the appropriate material, while also encouraging scaling of Diamond Pressing since it's usage is more diverse.

[NeoDeusMachina]

26 minutes ago, JaxckLl said:

Honestly, I wouldn't be upset if Viscogel was removed from regular gameplay. To my mind it's the primary reason Resin is so expensive since as Konfig pointed out it just breaks the game. Either that or its liquid lock usage gets turned into a building with other resource requirements. If a Viscogel liquid lock cost say 1000W to operate then it would fit much more smoothly into the overall game balance.

It would be nice if you could explain what you mean by that more precisely.

Those things are 100% optional and literally not required for anything, how can they be game breaking and not fit into the overall game balance? I have never used isoresin insulation for anything (base game or DLC), I never had any problem making liquid O2/H2, I typically use dirt tempshift plates and igneous rock for pipes. When I feel reaaaally fancy, I will make pipes out of ceramics, but most of the time I can't be bothered. I really fail to see how isoresin, viscogel and insulation are gamebreaking.

I am also concerned about the viscogel locks at 1000W? What purpose would that serve honestly? Its only use is to make a more compact liquid lock, naphta has better temperature range, not sure how putting a 1kW constant power need for each lock would do anything but ensure nobody ever uses it for anything. Unless there is something I do not understand, please enlighten me!

[Coolthulhu]

On 9/3/2021 at 3:28 PM, spinningtime7 said:

Make the Diamond press process 4 tons of refined carbon at once to get 1 ton of diamond, keeping the same amount of energy and radbolt requirement.

Refined carbon cost is pretty much irrelevant here unless the ratio was incredibly high. You're basically saying "make diamond press 10 times more radiation-efficient", since that is the primary cost of operating it.

Now, it could be argued that this would make the game better, but it just has to be noted that this is a hard buff and the material cost increase is mostly just a smokescreen.

On 9/4/2021 at 4:29 AM, spinningtime7 said:

you require 75 kg/tile for the small petroleum engine, equivalent to 150 kg of CO2 if you utilize slickster to convert it.

That's not a good comparison - slicksters produce just 10kg/cycle with grooming, consume CPU cycles, are most likely away from the rocket and so need pumping (more CPU cycles). Their primary cost isn't the CO2, just like their primary output isn't petroleum, but kcal and shells.

I wish we had more early game engines. For example, an engine that uses sugar could exist and be actually worth using. Pity there is no engine that fits this description.

1 hour ago, JaxckLl said:

Honestly, I wouldn't be upset if Viscogel was removed from regular gameplay. To my mind it's the primary reason Resin is so expensive since as Konfig pointed out it just breaks the game. Either that or its liquid lock usage gets turned into a building with other resource requirements. If a Viscogel liquid lock cost say 1000W to operate then it would fit much more smoothly into the overall game balance.

I don't think you read Konfig correctly. To me, it sounds more like he meant that viscogel is redundant since you can just stack oil+petrol+brine/sulfur/etc. and so there's no reason to produce viscogel.

Because your idea - that viscogel breaks anything (other than "wallet" of those who use it) - is completely wrong.

[KonfigSys]

8 hours ago, NeoDeusMachina said:

It would be nice if you could explain what you mean by that more precisely.

Those things are 100% optional and literally not required for anything, how can they be game breaking and not fit into the overall game balance? I have never used isoresin insulation for anything (base game or DLC), I never had any problem making liquid O2/H2, I typically use dirt tempshift plates and igneous rock for pipes. When I feel reaaaally fancy, I will make pipes out of ceramics, but most of the time I can't be bothered. I really fail to see how isoresin, viscogel and insulation are gamebreaking.

I am also concerned about the viscogel locks at 1000W? What purpose would that serve honestly? Its only use is to make a more compact liquid lock, naphta has better temperature range, not sure how putting a 1kW constant power need for each lock would do anything but ensure nobody ever uses it for anything. Unless there is something I do not understand, please enlighten me!

I will answer the question about the insulated pipes.

If you use ceramic or even worse igneous pipes, you need to either send exact amount of fuel to the tanks (possible with the current metering but still require automation) or return the excess fuel back to the cooling room (again some automation). 

If you use insulated (isoresin) pipes, you do not need anything but just a pump in the liquid room and the liquid hydrogen can stay there in the pipe without breaking the pipe at the rocket launch or landing. The same way you fuel with petrol.

Here is the vanilla game screenshot; you can see the automation under the hydrogen cooling room to cycle liquid hydrogen to prevent pipes breaking. When pipes were replaced with thermoinsulated (isoresin) all this was not needed anymore.

Spoiler

 

[JaxckLl]

12 hours ago, NeoDeusMachina said:

It would be nice if you could explain what you mean by that more precisely.

Those things are 100% optional and literally not required for anything, how can they be game breaking and not fit into the overall game balance? I have never used isoresin insulation for anything (base game or DLC), I never had any problem making liquid O2/H2, I typically use dirt tempshift plates and igneous rock for pipes. When I feel reaaaally fancy, I will make pipes out of ceramics, but most of the time I can't be bothered. I really fail to see how isoresin, viscogel and insulation are gamebreaking.

I am also concerned about the viscogel locks at 1000W? What purpose would that serve honestly? Its only use is to make a more compact liquid lock, naphta has better temperature range, not sure how putting a 1kW constant power need for each lock would do anything but ensure nobody ever uses it for anything. Unless there is something I do not understand, please enlighten me!

Playing the game is 100% optional and literally not required for anything. It is unproductive to the point of asinine, willful foolishness to fail to acknowledge the impact powerful options have on less powerful options simply by existing. I really have no desire to dive further into a discussion with you about any of my suggestions if you're going to approach said discussion without acknowledging that impact.

----

@Coolthulhu: "Breaks" was maybe not the right word. ONI base building is about completing a variety of complex tasks using limited resources in a limited timeframe. These tasks mesh with one another, and there's usually a wide range of acceptable outcomes beyond the optimal. This is good, since it makes the game replayable and allows for further optimization as one gets more experienced with the game. One area that is particularly challenging is gas management. There's no real way to control the spread of gases other than to block them off with other gases. However the way liquid mechanics work, a relatively small amount of liquid can be used to "break" this balance in a liquid lock. Viscogel is the pinnacle of this, but as you correctly pointed out there's plenty of other sub-optimal-but-perfectly-valid options. Liquid locks cut through the complexity of gas management by exploiting how ONI handles tile conflicts.

A player using liquid locks really doesn't have to touch any kind of vent system until they're ready for exosuits and Oil processing. There's a lot of game missing for that player because they're using that exploit. The problems associated with Chlorine or PO2 can be easily sequestered & defeated. Carbon Dioxide can be allowed to sump, while Hydrogen can be chimneyed. Indeed they're so powerful that playing without using liquid locks can in many ways feel inferior.

I don't like how powerful are liquid locks . They make bases feel samey and they cut down the complexity of airlocks to nothing. They "break" the game, or at least the parts of the game that involve gases and the temperature they carry. Viscogel is the main offender I targeted because it is designed around the exploit. It's incredibly strong, the devs know this, and they tried to balance its acquisition as the long term reward that it should be. I don't find that any liquid except for Viscogel should work as a liquid lock. And I find that viscogel has been overbalanced since it's functionality is so impactful while costing nothing in terms of upkeep. I would prefer to see viscogel (aka Resin) reduced in price somewhat, but have viscogel no longer function as it does. Instead, it can be built into an upgraded door that costs a big chunk of power, but blocks off gases, prevents temperature exchange, and keeps dupes toe's dry.

A large, ongoing power requirement is great since it is a relatively simple problem with a wide variety of solutions. Every game mechanic, every resource, can be related to this question. This makes power generation not only one of the most fun parts of the game, but also one of the most varied. I find that giving the player a wide variety of potent power options of varying levels of complexity is as important as giving them a wide variety of potent power spenders of varying complexity. 1000W I pulled out of the air, but something around that I feel would be fair for what would otherwise require an exploit (liquid locks) or a complex & finely tuned airlock consuming a similar amount of power.

[NeoDeusMachina]

4 hours ago, KonfigSys said:

I will answer the question about the insulated pipes.

If you use ceramic or even worse igneous pipes, you need to either send exact amount of fuel to the tanks (possible with the current metering but still require automation) or return the excess fuel back to the cooling room (again some automation). 

If you use insulated (isoresin) pipes, you do not need anything but just a pump in the liquid room and the liquid hydrogen can stay there in the pipe without breaking the pipe at the rocket launch or landing. The same way you fuel with petrol.

Here is the vanilla game screenshot; you can see the automation under the hydrogen cooling room to cycle liquid hydrogen to prevent pipes breaking. When pipes were replaced with thermoinsulated (isoresin) all this was not needed anymore.

  Reveal hidden contents

 

Thanks, that makes sense! I always looped the pipes and returned the excess in the storage with a valve to limit the flow, so I probably just never encountered the problem of rockets heating up fuel in the pipes when taking off.

2 hours ago, JaxckLl said:

Playing the game is 100% optional and literally not required for anything. It is unproductive to the point of asinine, willful foolishness to fail to acknowledge the impact powerful options have on less powerful options simply by existing. I really have no desire to dive further into a discussion with you about any of my suggestions if you're going to approach said discussion without acknowledging that impact.

I haven't said those materials aren't great at what they do, because they are. However, there is such a thing as overengineering things. "Insulation" as in the material is what I would call overengineering in ONI for the vast majority of applications a player will face in their playthroughs.

As for liquid locks made out of visco-gel, they look neat, they are more compact, but they do not do anything "gamebreaking" that cannot be done already starting cycle 1 with a pitcher pump and a puddle of water near the printing pod. Or should I say, they don't break the game any more than other liquid locks do based on your reply.

2 hours ago, JaxckLl said:

 

@Coolthulhu: "Breaks" was maybe not the right word. ONI base building is about completing a variety of complex tasks using limited resources in a limited timeframe. These tasks mesh with one another, and there's usually a wide range of acceptable outcomes beyond the optimal. This is good, since it makes the game replayable and allows for further optimization as one gets more experienced with the game. One area that is particularly challenging is gas management. There's no real way to control the spread of gases other than to block them off with other gases. However the way liquid mechanics work, a relatively small amount of liquid can be used to "break" this balance in a liquid lock. Viscogel is the pinnacle of this, but as you correctly pointed out there's plenty of other sub-optimal-but-perfectly-valid options. Liquid locks cut through the complexity of gas management by exploiting how ONI handles tile conflicts.

A player using liquid locks really doesn't have to touch any kind of vent system until they're ready for exosuits and Oil processing. There's a lot of game missing for that player because they're using that exploit. The problems associated with Chlorine or PO2 can be easily sequestered & defeated. Carbon Dioxide can be allowed to sump, while Hydrogen can be chimneyed. Indeed they're so powerful that playing without using liquid locks can in many ways feel inferior.

I don't like how powerful are liquid locks . They make bases feel samey and they cut down the complexity of airlocks to nothing. They "break" the game, or at least the parts of the game that involve gases and the temperature they carry. Viscogel is the main offender I targeted because it is designed around the exploit. It's incredibly strong, the devs know this, and they tried to balance its acquisition as the long term reward that it should be. I don't find that any liquid except for Viscogel should work as a liquid lock. And I find that viscogel has been overbalanced since it's functionality is so impactful while costing nothing in terms of upkeep. I would prefer to see viscogel (aka Resin) reduced in price somewhat, but have viscogel no longer function as it does. Instead, it can be built into an upgraded door that costs a big chunk of power, but blocks off gases, prevents temperature exchange, and keeps dupes toe's dry.

A large, ongoing power requirement is great since it is a relatively simple problem with a wide variety of solutions. Every game mechanic, every resource, can be related to this question. This makes power generation not only one of the most fun parts of the game, but also one of the most varied. I find that giving the player a wide variety of potent power options of varying levels of complexity is as important as giving them a wide variety of potent power spenders of varying complexity. 1000W I pulled out of the air, but something around that I feel would be fair for what would otherwise require an exploit (liquid locks) or a complex & finely tuned airlock consuming a similar amount of power.

In any case, from what I can read here, your grudge does not seem to be aimed at visco-gel itself, but at liquid locks as an existing mechanic. Removing visco-gel from the game will not solve the problem. I honestly mean this in a non-offensive way, perhaps you could make a suggestion thread for your liquid lock discussion/ideas to give it more visibility?

[JaxckLl]

I will, but I'm still ruminating on what exactly I feel needs to change. Really what I want is dissolved gases being a thing, with different liquids being able to carry different gases in various concentrations (incidentally this would also be a much, much better way of handling Natural Gas). This then leads into ideas about acids, which itself is a rich area of mechanics that would perfectly fit in ONI. However that all might be too complicated, and I'm not sure how to engineer that into the game since I'm not a programmer.

[Coolthulhu]

14 hours ago, JaxckLl said:

A player using liquid locks really doesn't have to touch any kind of vent system until they're ready for exosuits and Oil processing. There's a lot of game missing for that player because they're using that exploit.

Calling ordinary liquid locks an "exploit" is stretching the meaning of this word really, really hard.

Not just from the gameplay perspective, but even from the misguided idea that things not being "realistic" is in any way exploity. Liquid locks are important IRL.

If "deep" (100kg/tile or so, not the few gram ones) liquid locks are exploits, then so is creating vacuum with a gas pump. And at this point, "exploit" means nothing and should not be used as a word.

[KonfigSys]

Airlocks.

Through my 1000Xn hours in the game (both DLC and vanilla) I made hundreds of different air locks and it is now neither interesting nor difficult for me. That is just my experience and it does not mean that I recommend any changes to the game mechanics.

A liquid drop lock is the simplest and early game available option. I do not think it is an exploit. It is an evolution of  3 tile water locks which we used at the beginning.

Most often I do not care about gas exchange - ok, some chlorine may escape but it will go down and will be filtered out. I always have a gas pump at the bottom to take away CO2 and any other heavy gases. Or some small amount of oxygen may escape into space. I do not care about it anymore.

I realized that I do not really need a perfect airlock in the most cases but just a standard airlock door.

The need for the airlock is mainly to create a temperature barrier for me (two airlocks with a vacuum in between). 

Viscogel was introduced by Klei when players were making three liquid stack airlocks. Viscogel replaced it perfectly. But it was very easy to get viscogel in the middle of the game (with the first cargo rocket). Now it is moved to the end of the game and I feel that by then I do not need it. You probably have some airlocks already everywhere you need them and will not replace them with viscogel. 

At the end I loaded a mod - airtight door and do not mess with airlocks at all. Again it is just my experience as I do not want to make another 100 and one airlock.

if I can suggest to Klei, I would add isoresin to space POIs so players have an option either feed the tree or get isoresin from space mining.

I like the tree idea. In one game session I had so much food that the tree could not consume it all and I had a lot of isoresin which came too late to be useful in the game session. So if we could get small amount of fullerent, thermium and isoresin alternatively in the middle game it will be better in my view. 

I suggested Klei to add a space mini-game, when a rocket explore/traverse the space it may occasionally come across a package which may contain these rare materials in small quantities. If the rocket has a cargo bay it will collect them. This was before Klei introduced space POIs and the space POIs are great but they are again more closer to the endgame (due to diamonds).

 

 

 

[goboking]

On 9/3/2021 at 8:28 AM, spinningtime7 said:

I understand that the purpose of that tree is to act as a calorie sink

The resin tree as currently designed is bad for precisely this reason.   Creating a calorie sink is creating a solution to a problem that only exists for players who inefficiently designed their farms and/or ranches.  A tightly, efficiently designed food production system won't have millions of calories sitting in a CO2 pit; it will produce a little more than what's actually needed by a colony, and thus there is no need for a calorie sink.

[JaxckLl]

Don't know if I believe that. A tightly designed system does not rely on "just in time" for base critical resources. A single dupe death could easily damn a "just in time" base that doesn't have buffers for resources such as calories or power.

Having a calorie sink is incredibly good, in the same way material properties serve as a natural energy sink.

[goboking]

2 minutes ago, JaxckLl said:

Don't know if I believe that. A tightly designed system does not rely on "just in time" for base critical resources. A single dupe death could easily damn a "just in time" base that doesn't have buffers for resources such as calories or power.

Having a calorie sink is incredibly good, in the same way material properties serve as a natural energy sink.

There's a difference between running a surplus and overproducing.  If you're stockpiling something in such great quantities that it shifts from something you're stockpiling to account for unforeseen problems into something you need to dispose of, then you're probably overproducing that something.

[JaxckLl]

Which is why there's now a sink for calories since other end state resources (Oxygen, Power) already had good sinks.

[Coolthulhu]

On 10/5/2021 at 11:37 PM, JaxckLl said:

Which is why there's now a sink for calories since other end state resources (Oxygen, Power) already had good sinks.

The problem is, it is not a good sink. There's no way to sort almost-rotten food to be sent to the tree, you HAVE to overproduce to get sensible quantities of output, the only output is a mediocre luxury that you don't need.

That said, the other two sinks aren't good either, since they accept only limited quantities of resources and the "products" have limited uses.

[AndreyKl]

On 10/7/2021 at 7:41 AM, Coolthulhu said:

There's no way to sort almost-rotten food to be sent to the tree

Not being able to automate spoiled food handling is also a problem for rocket automation. Short range rockets are easy to automate, but long range ones either need some 'berry sludge' or -15C storage on planetoid to ensure loaded food is fresh. Both aren't that hard to setup, but making or delivering that to each colonized planetoid is a chore of it's own.

Sadly it's impossible to automate even composting of near spoiled food - I have to mark near spoiled food manually if I want to get rid of it.

On 10/7/2021 at 7:41 AM, Coolthulhu said:

That said, the other two sinks aren't good either, since they accept only limited quantities of resources and the "products" have limited uses.

There is also food to coal (hatches) and spoiled food to sand (50% pokeshell, but boiling is probably an option). Never used first one, but might be useful in a pinch. I use pokeshells instead of composters to somewhat offset sand consumption on planetoids without direct source of sand (spoiled food plus output from water sieve produces enough sand on irradiated planetoid to feed the sieve indefinitely).