[Game Update] - Public Testing 477316

[NeoDeusMachina]

27 minutes ago, Kderosa said:

it's the later rocketry tech that should be locked up for awhile forcing you to stick to the early rockets for awhile instead of upgrading immediately to petroleum or radbolts.

With the changes implemented this patch, this would make a no teleporter playthrough very difficult since the CO2 and Sucrose engines only allow a round trip (with landing) to the closest planet (no oil). The other alternative is to send a squad of dupes that will "not" come back until new tech is available. Without landing, they have a 2 tiles range once in orbit, which means you can't really use them for anything in terms of space exploration or mining. I am really not sure what being stuck with those 2 would accomplish?

Petroleum engines require some work on the oil planetoid and a decent amount of infrastructure, using teleporters, etc. depending on where you decide to setup your refueling platforms. This also means multiple colonies to manage. We get a "delay" there.

The radbolt engine requires a good amount of research (both materials and space) and I am hoping that with this patch, the days of refueling it from its exhaust are over. I personally never used it, but I know it was a cheap and easy way to fuel it.

The hydrogen engine nearly requires the entire tech tree and is the longest research to complete, but that one doesn't fall within the issues you were discussing.

Then there is the forgotten steam engine, which I might give a chance in the future since it can allow a round trip with landing on the oil planet without the hassle of setting up radbolt engines.

Edit  

5 minutes ago, WeSaidMeh said:

I would very much prefer a global "previous view" feature. You press a hotkey, and it switches back to the previously viewed planetoid/rocket. I'm very often in that situation where I just want to quick check on a remote project, and then go back to where I was. Could also be used as a quick toggle between two locations then.

In the mean time, you can use ctrl+number to set a cam location and shift+number to center cam on it. You could always leave a number free for temporary locations or ongoing projects that you wanna check up on!

 

 

Edited September 3, 2021 by NeoDeusMachina

[Sasza22]

2 hours ago, Sergadra said:

So i hope the Radiation Stuff is more in work again. Would love to see some more sources of Radiation espacially for the Diamond pressing.

I`d like to see more radbolt consumers. You either need small amounts for research or really large amounts for the press or engine. I`d like to see something using medicore amounts that could eat up the leftover radbolts from the research station.

[pether]

On 9/3/2021 at 2:02 AM, JarrettM said:

The Automation Broadcaster and Automation Broadcast Receiver buildings allow automation signals to be sent wirelessly so long as both buildings have a view of space. This even works between asteroids and spacecraft. The broadcast has a range of 5 hexes on the starmap.

This is so cool, I am so happy this is added! Great move guys!

However, 1 bit in 5-hex range is pretty low, may I suggest expanding number of bits (logic ribbon would work great here) or the range? edit: I just now realized you can configure receivers and select what device they are paired with, what expands the possibilities and makes this a really nice feature. I love it!

Edited September 4, 2021 by pether

[Kderosa]

1 hour ago, NeoDeusMachina said:

The other alternative is to send a squad of dupes that will "not" come back until new tech is available. Without landing, they have a 2 tiles range once in orbit, which means you can't really use them for anything in terms of space exploration or mining. I am really not sure what being stuck with those 2 would accomplish?

One steam rocket with two trailblazers, two sugar rockets with spacefarers which and plenty of O2, and five dupes with plenty of motivation because there's no way to get home.  Alternately, if you think they need less motivation you could make the dupe transporter activatable from the oil planet.  Plus if any planet needs a good strip mining it's the oil planet, so I'd say five dupes is a good number.  It's also a 100 cycle operation and my dupes know they (or their widows) don't won't get paid until the job is done.  In the meantime, your research team can be using those cheap starter rockets to do orbital research and explore around the first two planets.  At that point, it's time to allow petroleum engines to become unlocked.

1 hour ago, NeoDeusMachina said:

Petroleum engines require some work on the oil planetoid and a decent amount of infrastructure, using teleporters, etc. depending on where you decide to setup your refueling platforms. This also means multiple colonies to manage. We get a "delay" there.

And, this is how it should be, but the problem is the better move is to teleport to the oil planet first, get access to steel and petroleum then go straight to petroleum rockets after one short research flight.  You should be forced to visit and colonize the pip/aluminum planet next (perhaps to get the teleporter key buried deep in the planet) which forces you to use the CO2/sucrose rockets to explore and conduct research.  Then you can conquer the oil planet and get access to petroleum and petroleum rockets.  Now it's easier to do the opposite. 

[Nebbie]

10 hours ago, SackMaggie said:

No more free stuff ?

Potential Range On the left is incorrect.

4 hours ago, NeoDeusMachina said:

...

The radbolt engine requires a good amount of research (both materials and space) and I am hoping that with this patch, the days of refueling it from its exhaust are over. I personally never used it, but I know it was a cheap and easy way to fuel it.

...

The Radbolt Engine generates a ridiculous amount of radioactive contamination, so it can still be used to fuel itself (the same is definitely true of the Carbon Dioxide Engine, and I suspect also the Steam Engine, since they generate a lot of exhaust that is also their fuel). This change really only stops significant exploiting of rockets that need oxidizer, so no easy Sucrose Engine exploiting early.

I'm hoping their next move is to reduce the magic heating/radioactive contaminating cone to 2 tiles tall instead of 9. This would significantly reduce the heat generation of rockets (which is absolutely nuts and can cause serious problems if anything is too close and not made out of resilient materials), make it nearly impossible to exploit it for power generation (since the platform itself is 2 tiles tall), and make it very hard to power Radbolt Engines off their own exhaust.
It would also finally give a good reason why we need a platform to begin with.

[n_t_p]

4 hours ago, NeoDeusMachina said:

With the changes implemented this patch, this would make a no teleporter playthrough very difficult since the CO2 and Sucrose engines only allow a round trip (with landing) to the closest planet (no oil). The other alternative is to send a squad of dupes that will "not" come back until new tech is available.

This is how it worked earlier in the development of spaced out, I'd welcome it.

Also, you can get plastic from dreckos.

2 hours ago, pether said:

This is so cool, I am so happy this is added! Great move guys!

However, 1 bit in 5-hex range is pretty low, may I suggest expanding number of bits (logic ribbon would work great here) or the range?

You can park a ship in space to act as a relay. You loose a dupe of course though.

2 hours ago, Kderosa said:

And, this is how it should be, but the problem is the better move is to teleport to the oil planet first, get access to steel and petroleum then go straight to petroleum rockets after one short research flight.  You should be forced to visit and colonize the pip/aluminum planet next (perhaps to get the teleporter key buried deep in the planet) which forces you to use the CO2/sucrose rockets to explore and conduct research.  Then you can conquer the oil planet and get access to petroleum and petroleum rockets.  

This is really clever, and I'd love for this to be an option, but I think it would be potentially very bad for the game if it's the default. Think of the noobs.

[Kderosa]

4 hours ago, n_t_p said:

Think of the noobs

Hey, when I was a noob, slimelung was so bad just digging out the closest swamp biome was a life and death proposition for my hapless dupes. But there’s an easy solution for noobs, just turn the teleporter on in easy mode. 

Edited September 4, 2021 by Kderosa

[NeoDeusMachina]

8 hours ago, Kderosa said:

One steam rocket with two trailblazers, two sugar rockets with spacefarers which and plenty of O2, and five dupes with plenty of motivation because there's no way to get home.  Alternately, if you think they need less motivation you could make the dupe transporter activatable from the oil planet.  Plus if any planet needs a good strip mining it's the oil planet, so I'd say five dupes is a good number.  It's also a 100 cycle operation and my dupes know they (or their widows) don't won't get paid until the job is done.  In the meantime, your research team can be using those cheap starter rockets to do orbital research and explore around the first two planets.  At that point, it's time to allow petroleum engines to become unlocked.

Agreed, there are "other" ways. The principle is still the same, i.e., send dupes that may not return until new tech is researched. You could even go as far as to send your entire colony after loading up the entire starter asteroid on your rocket if you're into strip mining.

8 hours ago, Kderosa said:

And, this is how it should be, but the problem is the better move is to teleport to the oil planet first, get access to steel and petroleum then go straight to petroleum rockets after one short research flight.  You should be forced to visit and colonize the pip/aluminum planet next (perhaps to get the teleporter key buried deep in the planet) which forces you to use the CO2/sucrose rockets to explore and conduct research.  Then you can conquer the oil planet and get access to petroleum and petroleum rockets.  Now it's easier to do the opposite. 

I agree that it should require a reasonable amount of work! However, I disagree that being able to rush petroleum or any other tech is a problem. It is a tech tree, which means everyone can prioritize whatever research they want and experience the game in a way they want.

I also don't like the idea of forcing a linear progression in ONI by forcing players to always have to colonize the closest planetoids before having access to the others. I like having the options of skipping those entirely if I want to. For example, in my last playthrough, I completely ignored the closest 2 asteroids and went straight for the moo planet just because the space resources in the area were more interesting and I wanted to set a space mining colony there. I am not sure I would still play ONI if every time I started a new game, I had to go through the exact same progression, colonize the same planets in the same order, etc. For me, it would get old very quickly.

 

6 hours ago, Nebbie said:

The Radbolt Engine generates a ridiculous amount of radioactive contamination, so it can still be used to fuel itself (the same is definitely true of the Carbon Dioxide Engine, and I suspect also the Steam Engine, since they generate a lot of exhaust that is also their fuel). This change really only stops significant exploiting of rockets that need oxidizer, so no easy Sucrose Engine exploiting early.

'm hoping their next move is to reduce the magic heating/radioactive contaminating cone to 2 tiles tall instead of 9. This would significantly reduce the heat generation of rockets (which is absolutely nuts and can cause serious problems if anything is too close and not made out of resilient materials), make it nearly impossible to exploit it for power generation (since the platform itself is 2 tiles tall), and make it very hard to power Radbolt Engines off their own exhaust.
It would also finally give a good reason why we need a platform to begin with.

This^. As mentionned in a previous post, I personally never used rocket exhausts for anything (personal choice) and I do feel like we shouln't be able to refuel the radbolt engine with its own exhaust the way we can right now. Maybe your suggestion could be a step in that direction, or anything else Klei comes up with. In the mean time, I will just keep pretending I can't do it.

 

6 hours ago, n_t_p said:

This is how it worked earlier in the development of spaced out, I'd welcome it.

Also, you can get plastic from dreckos.

I do welcome it  and I don't remember when was last time I made plastic out of anything else than dreckos. Maybe I should try the polymer press again.

[sakura_sk]

The general problem with radbolts is you can't get any decent amount if you don't resort in some sort of exploit. Firstly, there was the radbolt collision reactor, now there is the radbolt engine's exhaust. The last that remains is the infinite storage of nuclear waste. The actual problem isn't solved though: the need of too many radbolt but without any decent source of radiation to produce them.

[NeoDeusMachina]

2 minutes ago, sakura_sk said:

The actual problem isn't solved though: the need of too many radbolt but without any decent source of radiation to produce them.

What about a good ol' research reactor? It can produce enough power for multiple radbolt generators, aquatuners for the turbines, etc., and produce a large amount of radbolts per cycle. It is a very legitimate solution, not an exploit. Even if some youtubers popularize blowing them up or using other kinds of exploits, it doesn't mean that they can't be used in a legitimate way or that there are no legitimate solution. I would personally build a research reactor only to generate large amount of radbolts, not for the power production.

There are also shinebug reactors, but I think some people could argue that it could be considered an exploit? Not sure why, perhaps because of how shinebugs are trapped through droplets of liquids *shrugs*

I think when I am at the stage of producing diamonds, it is more of a luxury/end game project than anything else. I literally never needed to build a diamond tempshift plate, so most of my diamond usage is for space mining, which I think is very end game in the DLC if you want to do it in a sustainable way.

Could we use more sources of radbolts (like large sources)? Sure, I'm always for more content. But I do think we have some option(s) that aren't super exploity. Any new source of radiation will also most definitely be exploited in some way, let's face it.

[SackMaggie]

What is the source of radiation IRL ? Sun ray, minerals, reactor what else ?
Although I would love to see a new source of radiation in game.

[sakura_sk]

5 minutes ago, NeoDeusMachina said:

It is a very legitimate solution, not an exploit.

And then you shoot radbolts diagonally through the walls of the insulated reactor, right? 

7 minutes ago, NeoDeusMachina said:

I literally never needed to build a diamond tempshift plate, so most of my diamond usage is for space mining, which I think is very end game in the DLC if you want to do it in a sustainable way.

Correct for the base game. If in the base game you needed diamond in order to send rockets to mine other planets, perhaps it would not be that very end game anymore.

[NeoDeusMachina]

9 minutes ago, sakura_sk said:

And then you shoot radbolts diagonally through the walls of the insulated reactor, right? 

No, that is another thing I have never done XD When I ended up building a reactor for the first time, it was because I needed a lot of radbolts for the diamond press since I wanted to establish a sustainable mining colony on the water planet. I ended up shooting it like this:

  

9 minutes ago, sakura_sk said:

Correct for the base game. If in the base game you needed diamond in order to send rockets to mine other planets, perhaps it would not be that very end game anymore.

I am not sure I am getting your point here, this is not relevant for the base game as you do not need diamond to mine anything from space? And you could mine diamond from certain destinations, which made it renewable that way.

 

[sakura_sk]

10 minutes ago, NeoDeusMachina said:

I am not sure I am getting your point here

I mean, while in the base game having renewable diamond is something optional because you will not need much of it other than building tempsift plates and aero pots (unless you want to build 1000 of them or something..), in DLC though you need diamond in order to star mining space POI and you need tons of it. It's not something you would do in the end game, otherwise space POI are meaningless...

[NeoDeusMachina]

28 minutes ago, sakura_sk said:

I mean, while in the base game having renewable diamond is something optional because you will not need much of it other than building tempsift plates and aero pots (unless you want to build 1000 of them or something..), in DLC though you need diamond in order to star mining space POI and you need tons of it. It's not something you would do in the end game, otherwise space POI are meaningless...

Aaah, i get it now. Yes, it would be great if mining space POIs would be less of an end game thing.

With the means we have at our disposal right now, it does feel more achievable in the end game because of all the techs and possibly infrastructure required. You can do it early-ish with diamonds from the oil planet, but not in a sustainable way. Ranching hatches sustainably is also a challenge in itself that isn't really an early-mid game project.

Another thing is that the space POIs closest to the starting planet aren't really worth the diamonds. There are cheaper ways to get dirt and algea and even metal ore in the early and mid-game than spending 1 ton of diamonds.

I guess we could discuss this in lengths, but I am not sure if the patch notes is the right place xD

[Mujinzo]

this test build has brought back windows cursor bug.

[sakura_sk]

12 minutes ago, Mujinzo said:

this test build has brought back windows cursor bug.

If you mean "windows cursor appears instead of the game cursor" it's been  happening for a while now... *but not all the time

Edited September 4, 2021 by sakura_sk

[pether]

11 hours ago, n_t_p said:

You can park a ship in space to act as a relay. You loose a dupe of course though.

OK, I just realized that receivers can select what device they are listening to, and that greatly expands possibilities. I didn't see that feature at first and I was sure you can transmit only one signal. In that case, my previous comment is invalid, really nice idea, Klei! 

On 9/3/2021 at 4:29 AM, fullerfamily said:

Transmitter/Receiver- for automated shipping perhaps? I can't think of another use. 

You can replace long automation wires with radio signals (as long they can see the space)

[yoakenashi]

On 9/3/2021 at 8:57 AM, sakura_sk said:

There is a "view exterior" button but no one seems to notice (super stealth door) 

 

I do like this, but it isn't available when the rocket is in flight. THIS is where it would be really nice. Currently there's no way to center on your rocket to tell where it is in the space map. It would be really awesome if clicking on this would show where it is one the space map IF it is in flight; otherwise just show the outside of the rocket as it currently does.

[sakura_sk]

11 minutes ago, yoakenashi said:

otherwise just show the outside of the rocket as it currently does.

Well... It doesn't actually show the outside of the rocket  

It shows the map. If you click on a rocket at the right menu and then hit the "view exterior" button, it shows the last spot of the map you where, not the exterior of the rocket you clicked the button of.

It would be great if it at least showed the engine of the rocket in the star map info box. If I open any of my old saves, I don't really remember what rockets were flying around. I could assume depending on their height... But not always.

[blakemw]

 

On 9/3/2021 at 8:40 PM, NeoDeusMachina said:

With the changes implemented this patch, this would make a no teleporter playthrough very difficult since the CO2 and Sucrose engines only allow a round trip (with landing) to the closest planet (no oil). The other alternative is to send a squad of dupes that will "not" come back until new tech is available. Without landing, they have a 2 tiles range once in orbit, which means you can't really use them for anything in terms of space exploration or mining. I am really not sure what being stuck with those 2 would accomplish?

 

What exactly is the problem with difficult? A one way trip (until CO2 can be produced) is not unduly problematic. The Oily moonlet is friendly.

Basic idea: Land 1 dupe using CO2 rocket and mine Lead and use it to make a Launch Pad, or send two Dupes in two CO2 rockets and use their Trialblazers to make a Launch Pad. Refuel CO2 rocket using Ethanol fueled Petroleum Generator and you have your return trip.

[Gurgel]

17 hours ago, SackMaggie said:

What is the source of radiation IRL ? Sun ray, minerals, reactor what else ?
Although I would love to see a new source of radiation in game.

Depends. There are many types or radiation. For what we are talking about here, it is mostly a) radioactive materials decaying and b) x-ray tubes where high-energy electrons get shot on a target that would not be radioactive by itself.

[NeoDeusMachina]

8 hours ago, blakemw said:

What exactly is the problem with difficult? A one way trip (until CO2 can be produced) is not unduly problematic. The Oily moonlet is friendly.

Basic idea: Land 1 dupe using CO2 rocket and mine Lead and use it to make a Launch Pad, or send two Dupes in two CO2 rockets and use their Trialblazers to make a Launch Pad. Refuel CO2 rocket using Ethanol fueled Petroleum Generator and you have your return trip.

Absolutely no problem with difficult, but I suspect you did not read the entire thread/ my other posts since what you have quoted is a bit out of context.

My comment was not about the difficulty of CO2/sucrose to reach the 1st two planets, but that being further locked with only those 2 engines for an additional number of cycles (e.g., someone had 100 more cycles) would not accomplish anything. I pointed out that there are some delays already for late game engines in different forms, and that I do not think we should force everyone to progress linearly by forcing them to always colonize the first 2 asteroids in order to be able to unlock more advanced engines and reach further into space. Basically, I think we should let the people decide how they want to play the game, what tech they want to rush, what planet they want to colonize, etc. Right now, this is possible and each "way" has its own set of challenges.

 

Edited September 5, 2021 by NeoDeusMachina

[Kderosa]

12 hours ago, NeoDeusMachina said:

My comment was not about the difficulty of CO2/sucrose to reach the 1st two planets, but that being further locked with only those 2 engines for an additional number of cycles (e.g., someone had 100 more cycles) would not accomplish anything. I pointed out that there are some delays already for late game engines in different forms, and that I do not think we should force everyone to progress linearly by forcing them to always colonize the first 2 asteroids in order to be able to unlock more advanced engines and reach further into space. Basically, I think we should let the people decide how they want to play the game, what tech they want to rush, what planet they want to colonize, etc. Right now, this is possible and each "way" has its own set of challenges.

On one hand I don't think it's quite as linear as you're portraying (you could always go the glossy drecko route for plastic and you don't need steel to refine metals with the metal refinery thus allowing you to jump to radbolts) but on the other the game, by it's nature, is somewhat linear because the inherent challenges do force you to do take certain actions in roughly the same order whether you want to or not. Also, whether you like it or not, if you want to get into the petroleum business on the teleport planet you have a 100+ cycle project in front of you and a colony to maintain while production is ongoing, and in the DLC that colony has to be a fairly well designed so you'll be able to ignore it afterwards as you deal with other things on other planets.  Same goes for uranium and the metal volcanoes on the pip planet.

My real point is more along the lines of technologies shouldn't be instantly obsolete upon discovery like CO2 rockets are in the DLC and steam rockets in the base game and this is because of the presence of a combination (too) easily researched improved technologies and no natural resource constraints (sucrose and petroleum are readily available), and the lack of interesting close by POIs to explore.  The base game didn't really have this issue - petroleum rockets remained useful after you finally managed to get a viable hydrogen rocket - it had a different problem - there was hardly anything to do with the hydrogen rockets.  The DLC mostly solves this problem but for the time being has introduced two classes of rocket tech with limited (I'd say too limiting) use. It may be that the petroleum rockets need to consume more fuel making it more expensive to run them (like in the base game) and the radbolt rockets need the "nuclear waste and take-off radition exploits" nerfed as well. Last, the outer planets need more of a reason to colonize them and use the end-game technology to its fullest, not just a quick jaunt to plunk down a printing pod  and pick up some artifacts then skedaddle home,  Ideally, you'd have to maintain some sort of colony to extract some sort of natural resource, turn it into some sort of commodity, transport that commodity somewhere else where it then gets used as part of some end game goal.  This would satisfy both the gamer camp and the sandbox camp.  Presently, though the game has good replayability, there's dissatisfaction with either having an end game consist of building needless vanity projects with no real goal or tedious infrastructure that serves no real purpose because there's no end game goal/project to achieve (traveling to the tear (base game) and opening the tear with radbolts (DLC) are kinda just tacked on anti-climactic ends).

The base game has a great early game and mid game.  The DLC improved the midgame and has a great late mid-game.  But we still need a better late game to wrap it up.  And, I'm hoping the funds and interest are sufficient for the dev team to reach that point.

[sakura_sk]

20 minutes ago, Kderosa said:

My real point is more along the lines of technologies shouldn't be instantly obsolete upon discovery like CO2 rockets are in the DLC

I like CO2 rockets and don't find them obsolete. If you like petroleum rockets better, that's fine but I don't see why there should be less options or force players to use CO2 rockets if they don't want to. In the limited variety of base game engines there are only three steps: steam, petroleum, hydrogen, so yes petroleum is the next logical step after steam but DLC is different. It has a completely different kind of playing when you get to space. So far I didn't need to use anything more than a steam rocket in DLC to reach most destinations. Nerfing any rocket at this point of DLC, I can't see how it would benefit anything. The only thing it would accomplice is limiting the options. 

If you find that CO2 rocket is totally useless, why don't you take it as a challenge to use only CO2 rockets for SO start? You would be amazed how far they can go if the worldgen allows it.