QuQuasar Posted July 23, 2021 Share Posted July 23, 2021 So... simplifying things a bit, docks have 4 states: Unassigned - (Empty Dock) Awaiting Delivery - (Green outline in the dock) Delivered - (Suit in Dock) In Use - (Empty Dock because the assigned suit is in use) From what I understand, docks return to "Awaiting Delivery" status when a worn suit is returned to the checkpoint, so suit repair doesn't cause any micromanagement chores. There's a strong case to be made that the "Unassigned" state is simply not necessary. There's no reason to not deliver suits if you have them, and priorities can be used to ensure the right docks get suits first. This would also prevent (for example) docks no longer being used when I get my dupes to drop them on the floor in an oxygenated rocket. However, I strongly disagree with the idea of delivering suits to "In Use" docks. This would only create busywork for my duplicants, forcing them to cart a new suit over to the docks every time someone went outside. The current solution, one suit for every dock, is much better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sakura_sk Posted July 23, 2021 Share Posted July 23, 2021 23 minutes ago, QuQuasar said: There's a strong case to be made that the "Unassigned" state is simply not necessary. There's no reason to not deliver suits if you have them, and priorities can be used to ensure the right docks get suits first. The reason would be to have an option to leave a dock empty until you are ready to let a suit fill with oxygen and the possibility to add docks in the "vacancy only" option without much effort. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gurgel Posted July 23, 2021 Share Posted July 23, 2021 7 hours ago, xenoborg said: Which is baffling, considering how much just a QoL improvement it would be, the number of times docks just cease to exist because you haven't looked at them for a while and none of them have suits in them anymore because dupes have dropped them or misplaced them Well, for me that number is zero. Hence no QoL impact at all. Of course, I do only use "vacancy only". I think it is there just for rare special situations, like a dupe dying outside and you have to let it in _fast_, not for continued use. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xenoborg Posted July 23, 2021 Author Share Posted July 23, 2021 5 hours ago, babba said: Having every suit dock instantly refilled with a fresh one would be a different game design. I have 50 lead suit docks or so in various places in my start map, it takes ages to reload the oxygen per dock, that's why it's great to line 3-15 up in a row for mass oxygen ( long term) retanking. If suits would pop up fresh in every dock every time one would be taken, then oxygen would IMHO also have to instantly be refilled. At the end of the day the docks would be so simplified that it would be boring - My opinion. An umbrella stand could work great with instant umbrella replacement, then we can have many Merry Popins'es on the map, instantly. Instant umbrella kwik fix to the hand, pop pop yellow rain protection. Docks have 200kg reserve, the suits dont get instantly refilled they take 75 seconds to do so, the only ones getting constantly hit are the very front ones, the next 10 are probably sat idle most of the time, If you cant fill the suit fast enough don't turn on the toggle pretty simple no? Nothings simplified, if anything you have made the dock more complicated, because you need automation, sweepers / scheduling and conveyors perhaps to ensure your docks are full and isnt taking dupe time. Nothing much else is changed except the fact that you dont have a bunch of docks in a row that are glorified gas tanks because the dupes dont pick up suits from them. 5 hours ago, sakura_sk said: It's not QoL if it creates a constant request for errands. A QoL would be to need less time micromanaging something and right now atmo suits even after the "durability" update made it to this point. The only time that doesn't work and needs micromanaging is exactly when you put only one dock and expect a different behavior than designed So do a million other things, you turn it on when you have the manpower or the automation to deal with said requests, the docks have always been buggy and have always needed micromanaging, at some point some dupe is going to drop a suit and a dock is going to go empty. Its not replacing your bog standard manual button, its adding a new one, that you can take advantage of if you have the right research unlocked and a bunch of other stuff built to supply the option and can dedicate oxygen production to. 5 hours ago, QuQuasar said: So... simplifying things a bit, docks have 4 states: Unassigned - (Empty Dock) Awaiting Delivery - (Green outline in the dock) Delivered - (Suit in Dock) In Use - (Empty Dock because the assigned suit is in use) From what I understand, docks return to "Awaiting Delivery" status when a worn suit is returned to the checkpoint, so suit repair doesn't cause any micromanagement chores. There's a strong case to be made that the "Unassigned" state is simply not necessary. There's no reason to not deliver suits if you have them, and priorities can be used to ensure the right docks get suits first. This would also prevent (for example) docks no longer being used when I get my dupes to drop them on the floor in an oxygenated rocket. However, I strongly disagree with the idea of delivering suits to "In Use" docks. This would only create busywork for my duplicants, forcing them to cart a new suit over to the docks every time someone went outside. The current solution, one suit for every dock, is much better. Its not replacing your option, its adding a new one, that to use correctly would use automation, sweepers, conveyors, dedicated oxygen. basically an upgraded dock, rather than just a line of docks, most of which sit idle because dupes are coded to pick the nearest suits to exit. Theres already an option that no one uses called Always permitted built into the checkpoint, the only reason people cant use that option and take advantage of the builds that you could do with that option, is because suits never get picked up and hung back up automatically, because you have to do busy work and click on a dock and request a suit be delivered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gurgel Posted July 23, 2021 Share Posted July 23, 2021 Not really convincing. Also because I see this complaint for the first time. It looks to me like you desire a very special complicated to use mechanics with very limited benefits that you would be the only or main user of and that nobody else found really missing so far. At that point, may I suggest to invest your time and energy into a more promising cause? Note that this is not a suggestion to "shut up" at all. By all means continue arguing your case if you so desire. But I will not be part of that discussion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xenoborg Posted July 23, 2021 Author Share Posted July 23, 2021 27 minutes ago, Gurgel said: Not really convincing. Also because I see this complaint for the first time. It looks to me like you desire a very special complicated to use mechanics with very limited benefits that you would be the only or main user of and that nobody else found really missing so far. At that point, may I suggest to invest your time and energy into a more promising cause? Note that this is not a suggestion to "shut up" at all. By all means continue arguing your case if you so desire. But I will not be part of that discussion. How is a infinite resupply or errand a complicated mechanic? you have them on other buildings. Atmo suits have always been complained about, and how dupes drop them and just leave them on the ground, theres an entire option on the checkpoint to do just that, its been there since the dawn of atmo suits, what hasnt been though and always should have been is said infinite resupply. Most people in the game cant use mechanics to the full benefit, should we start removing them? or should we add ones that increase build possibilities while also providing QoL, when half the work (All Access checkpoints) already exists. A row of 20 Docks adds nothing to the game, it never has, just wasted space and a single option for players, have 20 dupes, you need 20 docks to leave your base, even if you dont need 20 docks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
babba Posted July 23, 2021 Share Posted July 23, 2021 A.) Atmo suits lay on the ground if all docks are occupied by suits or... B.) There is multiple exit/entry points for the dupes to throw down the suits on passing "only occupied" docks. Here is the thing, the developers implemented the suit dock game design at the beginning of the game. In order to convince Klei to change their game design it would require a huge effort, in my opinion. So if one wants to convince Klei, I would form exact proposal on how you would like to have things changed in the game. Ive probably built thousands of suit docks BTW - However, at the end of the day its up to Klei to look at your proposal. If a proposal is really good and makes sense, from a Klei point of view, and if a lot of forum users love it...Then Klei does listen to the forumistas and updates the game accordingly 15 minutes ago, xenoborg said: ... Atmo suits have always been complained about, and how dupes drop them and just leave them on the ground ... 21 hours ago, xenoborg said: ... My single suit dock plans are gone, and its pretty much killed all enthusiasm to continue as i certainly don't want to be babysitting suit docks for the rest of the game, while everything else in the base get automated. ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xenoborg Posted July 23, 2021 Author Share Posted July 23, 2021 12 minutes ago, babba said: A.) Atmo suits lay on the ground if all docks are occupied by suits or... B.) There is multiple exit/entry points for the dupes to throw down the suits on passing "only occupied" docks. Here is the thing, the developers implemented the suit dock game design at the beginning of the game. In order to convince Klei to change their game design it would require a huge effort, in my opinion. So if one wants to convince Klei, I would form exact proposal on how you would like to have things changed in the game. Ive probably built thousands of suit docks BTW - However, at the end of the day its up to Klei to look at your proposal. If you click a suit dock (Atmo / Jetpack / Oxygen mask) you get Two options (Deliver Suit / Unequip suit) I would like a third (Deliver suit Infinite, that you click on or off just like build or cooking orders, it could be right of the deliver suit button just like said orders) thats it, so I don't have to manually keep coming back to the suit to manually click deliver suit. Of course Klei would have to change it so if the suit is out in use by a dupe the dock is no longer "occupied" but thats it. I can get the exact desired effect right now in the game, all i have to do is watch a dock, wait for a dupe to take a suit, click the deliver suit button, a suit gets placed there, it gets filled, and then gets used by another dupe, I have to do that manually right now every time, a simple Infinite button would change that. Its not gonna break atmo suits, its not going to somehow trivialise them, you arent going to save any o2, electricity or otherwise, at most it saves you 100kg of refined metal a dock, but gives you other challenges if you so wish, automated resupply etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sakura_sk Posted July 23, 2021 Share Posted July 23, 2021 3 minutes ago, xenoborg said: how dupes drop them and just leave them on the ground Again... The only reason that happens is when you have only one dock. When you have multiple docks that never happens. After durability, when the suit is dropped on check point as "worn", another suit is requested without player interaction in the dock it was supposed to fill and if there is a "forever" task to repair the suit, you never notice durability exists. I've played many hours without having any problems using atmo suits and oxygen masks. The only time there was a problem and the "trapped" notification was flickering, was the time I set a single oxygen mask dock to leave the mask before entering a rocket (dupes wanted to loiter in exactly that spot for some reason...) and they got trapped while the mask was refilling. 17 minutes ago, xenoborg said: How is a infinite resupply or errand a complicated mechanic? you have them on other buildings. Infinite errands exist for finite resources otherwise they would create a loop like setting a pitcher pump and a bottle emptier at "auto bottling" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
babba Posted July 23, 2021 Share Posted July 23, 2021 3 minutes ago, xenoborg said: If you click a suit dock (Atmo / Jetpack / Oxygen mask) you get Two options (Deliver Suit / Unequip suit) I would like a third (Deliver suit Infinite, that you click on or off just like build or cooking orders, it could be right of the deliver suit button just like said orders) thats it, so I don't have to manually keep coming back to the suit to manually click deliver suit. Of course Klei would have to change it so if the suit is out in use by a dupe the dock is no longer "occupied" but thats it. I can get the exact desired effect right now in the game, all i have to do is watch a dock, wait for a dupe to take a suit, click the deliver suit button, a suit gets placed there, it gets filled, and then gets used by another dupe, I have to do that manually right now every time, a simple Infinite button would change that. If you like, upload a video of your game play situation with docks. Then the community can help you and give you tips on how to build a good dock environment, so that it does not require manual intervention. Its not the the system could have some fine tweaks here and there, but in my opinion the general game design of the docks works great. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xenoborg Posted July 23, 2021 Author Share Posted July 23, 2021 10 minutes ago, babba said: If you like, upload a video of your game play situation with docks. Then the community can help you and give you tips on how to build a good dock environment, so that it does not require manual intervention. I know how to use docks.... (the point is I can do what Im asking for manually right now, but why would i want to sit there staring at a dock, to continuously click deliver) 12 minutes ago, sakura_sk said: Again... The only reason that happens is when you have only one dock. When you have multiple docks that never happens. After durability, when the suit is dropped on check point as "worn", another suit is requested without player interaction in the dock it was supposed to fill and if there is a "forever" task to repair the suit, you never notice durability exists. I've played many hours without having any problems using atmo suits and oxygen masks. The only time there was a problem and the "trapped" notification was flickering, was the time I set a single oxygen mask dock to leave the mask before entering a rocket (dupes wanted to loiter in exactly that spot for some reason...) and they got trapped while the mask was refilling. Infinite errands exist for finite resources otherwise they would create a loop like setting a pitcher pump and a bottle emptier at "auto bottling" Atmo suits and otherwise are finite resources, you only have as many as you build, if you dont have an atmo suit to place at a dock it waits for one. its no different from auto bottling eventually you run out of water, unless you are putting said water right back, in which case its nothing like it, you arent picking up a suit from one dock to place in another. You can click deliver suit on a bunch of docks right now, they only get a delivery when there are suits "available". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
babba Posted July 23, 2021 Share Posted July 23, 2021 Maybe Klei could implement a special single suit dock I would write a compact proposal about it, my dear friend Wouldn`t a dedicated instant suit replacement dock nullify Klei`s design efforts so far ? What do you think Bring your best arguments to the table I rad that you would to have a single suit dock...Its your wish, any user has to right to wish for something. Do I want to have the game design changes fundamental changed for all suit docks - No. That is my opinion. 21 hours ago, xenoborg said: Come back from a long break, Atmo suits now have durability which is cool I have an automated setup in mind to transport worn suits and deliver fixed suits to checkpoints.... However Klei still haven't got rid of the stupid manual deliver suit button, which should have been done the second automation and sweepers became a thing, now that they've added suit degradation it should DEFINITELY not be a thing. My single suit dock plans are gone, and its pretty much killed all enthusiasm to continue as i certainly don't want to be babysitting suit docks for the rest of the game, while everything else in the base get automated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xenoborg Posted July 23, 2021 Author Share Posted July 23, 2021 8 minutes ago, babba said: Maybe Klei could implement a special single suit dock I would write a compact proposal about it, my dear friend Wouldn`t a dedicated instant suit replacement dock nullify Klei`s design efforts so far ? What do you think Bring your best arguments to the table Everything is already there, all that is required is an infinite deliver button, you dont need a special dock, the suits aren't magically appearing out of nowhere, its as if you click on a dock thats just been taken out by a dupe and click deliver suit, a suit gets placed on the dock, it gets charged, a dupe is now able to take that suit out if they need to. Job done. People can now use All access on checkpoints with it, its there Klei made it they obviously put it there for some sort of design purpose now it can actually be used. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SharraShimada Posted July 23, 2021 Share Posted July 23, 2021 So... after reading the thread, in summary everyone is just fine with the system as its now, but xenoborg wants a different system. Okay, you can want it. But i guess they will not change a working system everyone is just fine with, just because you are not, i´m sorry. Maybe you can have a chat with a good modder. Thats the only way i see to get you what you want. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
babba Posted July 23, 2021 Share Posted July 23, 2021 2 minutes ago, xenoborg said: Everything is already there, all that is required is an infinite deliver button, you dont need a special dock, the suits aren't magically appearing out of nowhere, its as if you click on a dock thats just been taken out by a dupe and click deliver suit, a suit gets placed on the dock, it gets charged, a dupe is now able to take that suit out if they need to. Job done. "Infinite suit delivery button" request, where the scenario and wish is to build a single standalone dock - I see. Mhhhhh, lets see what others say about that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xenoborg Posted July 23, 2021 Author Share Posted July 23, 2021 5 minutes ago, babba said: "Infinite suit delivery button" request, where the scenario and wish is to build a single standalone dock - I see. Mhhhhh, lets see what others say about that You dont have to build a single dock..... the take away point is that any docks you have can have a fresh suit placed there when a suit is taken automatically. Why do you think Klei put in All access? to have dupes just drop their suits and have them linger there while docks go unused due to no suits, or do you think it was an oversight perhaps. Have you ever used All access permanently? The absolute max you can get away with for a single dock if you schedule is 8 dupes, assuming zero time wasted, because a suit takes 75 seconds to refill. This isnt some oh i wanna build a single dock ez mode request. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sakura_sk Posted July 23, 2021 Share Posted July 23, 2021 7 minutes ago, xenoborg said: Have you ever used All access permanently? Yes. When there is only way in and out. Otherwise you would use "vacancy only" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
babba Posted July 23, 2021 Share Posted July 23, 2021 54 minutes ago, xenoborg said: You dont have to build a single dock..... the take away point is that any docks you have can have a fresh suit placed there when a suit is taken automatically. Why do you think Klei put in All access? to have dupes just drop their suits and have them linger there while docks go unused due to no suits, or do you think it was an oversight perhaps. Have you ever used All access permanently? Here is what I do: It`s a fresh base of mine at ~2000 cycles. Normally I build suit Oxygen feed pipes per 2-3 docks. I build lots of suits, but I understand your request wish for refinements which suit your needs. What I would like to have in the game, as a function for an entire line of atmo suit docks would be a button on the Lead Suit checkpoint, called "Restock entire line of Suits". So id I want to send in double the amount of dupes ( emergency situation!), than I have Atmo Docks, I can press that button and get a full suit refresh of the entire dock line. That is what I would like to have as a suit dock refinement FYI My base dock suit overview My oxygen supply unit for all suits This could also solve your wish of: "Instantly refill suit dock", being a checkbox function on the Lead Suit checkpoint. So my function request for a line of docks, would be coined for you: "ALWAYS restock entire line of Suits". So we have two requests: "Restock entire line of Suits" and "ALWAYS ( instantly ) restock entire line of Suits". Would that make you happy ? @xenoborg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sakura_sk Posted July 23, 2021 Share Posted July 23, 2021 30 minutes ago, xenoborg said: Atmo suits and otherwise are finite resources Maybe I had to refer at it as "consumed" and not finite. If nothing is consumed, it creates a loop. Every infinite task needs a way to break the loop. Atmosuits are infinite as they cannot be consumed or destroyed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xenoborg Posted July 23, 2021 Author Share Posted July 23, 2021 3 minutes ago, sakura_sk said: Yes. When there is only way in and out. Otherwise you would use "vacancy only" Care to elaborate? "When there is only way in and out" 4 minutes ago, babba said: Here is what I do: It`s a fresh base of mine at ~2000 cycles. Normally I build suit Oxygen feed pipes per 2-3 docks. I build lots of suits, but I understand your request wish for refinements which suit your needs. What I would like to have in the game, as a function for an entire line of atmo suit docks would be a button on the Lead Suit checkpoint, called "Restock entire line of Atmo Suits". So id I want to send in double the amount of dupes ( emergency situation!), than I have Atmo Docks, then I can press that button and I get a full suit refresh of the entire dock line. That is what I would like to have as a suit dock refinement Ok... Wouldn't you rather not have to press a button manually, have each dock put a fresh suit in via, sweepers or dupes - So theres either a electrical penalty or a dupe time penalty (If you choose to have infinite resupply on!), when the docks suit is taken so if need be more dupes can access without your manual interaction. and if a dock isnt available for returning dupes to place a suit, have them drop them at the entrance, and you have something in place to pick up the suit and place it in a bin nearby, ready to replace another suit taken out. You can have exactly what you want, without manual interaction with an infinite deliver suit button, a bin of suits, and some sweepers. 4 minutes ago, sakura_sk said: Maybe I had to refer at it as "consumed" and not finite. If nothing is consumed, it creates a loop. Every infinite task needs a way to break the loop. Atmosuits are infinite as they cannot be consumed or destroyed. They are finite though, atmo docks dont get restocked if there arent suits to restock, the errand is there but it cant be fulfilled unless, an atmo suit is available. If all docks are full then theres no loop, if a dock gets used an errand gets made. Its no different from an infinite farming loop, your farmer is always going to go farm when he can. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
babba Posted July 23, 2021 Share Posted July 23, 2021 @xenoborg ...was still editing my post That would be 2 functions on the lead suit checkpoint, one for you and one for me . "Restock entire line of Suits ( once )" as a command button on the suit check point and "ALWAYS ( instantly ) restock entire line of Suits", as check box on the suit check point. Building 1 suit dock also counts as a "line", a single standalone dock is included and would be covered by the functions. A penalty would be, in my opinion, covered by the necessity that it takes time until each dock is reloaded with oxygen. I would only add these two functions to the suit checkpoint, if Klei finds time and likes to do some dock refinements. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xenoborg Posted July 23, 2021 Author Share Posted July 23, 2021 11 minutes ago, babba said: @xenoborg ...was still editing my post, have a look if you like it That would be 2 checkboxes on the lead suit checkpoint, one for you and one for me . I have written about it at the bottom of my post in the link. Again It would be a toggle on the individual dock, so one could have it on and another next to it off etc. Your button doesn't need to exist if you have an infinite resupply, so no manual work required for you to press a button. All you would need is 2x the suits of the number of docks you have, half would be on the docks, half would be in a bin near, with sweepers, if all your suits get taken out at once, the sweepers place new suits in all the docks to charge, same thing if only some of the suits get taken out, and if something happens suits are there to be used, (if you had to press a button, you would need to wait the time to take suits out and place them + the 75 seconds it takes to fill) Automatic vs manual. And when your dupes come back they drop the suits on the ground as there arent docks available. You have a sweeper pick up the suits and place them in the bin ready to be used again, meanwhile you have a line up of filling or filled suits ready to go again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
babba Posted July 23, 2021 Share Posted July 23, 2021 2 minutes ago, xenoborg said: Again It would be a toggle on the individual dock, so one could have it on and another next to it off etc. Your button doesn't need to exist if you have an infinite resupply, so no manual work required for you to press a button. All you would need is 2x the suits of the number of docks you have, half would be on the docks, half would be in a bin near, with sweepers, if all your suits get taken out at once, the sweepers place new suits in all the docks to charge, and if something happens suits are there to be used, (if you had to press a button, you would need to wait the time to take suits out and place them + the 75 seconds it takes to fill) Automatic vs manual. And when your dupes come back they drop the suits on the ground as there arent docks available. You have a sweeper pick up the suits and place them in the bin ready to be used again, meanwhile you have a line up of filling or filled suits ready to go again. I would like to have the 2 functions on the suit checkpoint, for the entire dock line, otherwise I would click myself to death....But that is my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xenoborg Posted July 23, 2021 Author Share Posted July 23, 2021 5 minutes ago, babba said: I would like to have the 2 functions on the suit checkpoint, for the entire dock line, otherwise I would click myself to death....But that is my opinion. Just have the copy settings thing, like bins do then i guess? copy one dock setting then drag over the rest. The main thing is! your exact wish can be done via an infinite deliver button, without you needing to manually interact with docks, or checkpoints, except the first time setting up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sakura_sk Posted July 23, 2021 Share Posted July 23, 2021 16 minutes ago, xenoborg said: Care to elaborate? "When there is only way in and out" When there is only one way in and out (sorry...) My old "atmo suits only for space" Spoiler My new "masks for space" Spoiler My new "how to visit other planets when dupes already wear a suit" Spoiler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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