Basic Infinite Food Storage for new decay mechanics for 7w

[Hjoyn]

This is just a repost of the tag I made for the discord, optimized for space and simplicity. Lots of people will probably be asking for this kind of thing after mergedown, so figured I'd share it a bit more. 

[Tranoze]

Instead of 2 layer liquid + vacum, it would work fine with 10g ethanol (or crude oil, but ethanol survive at much lower temperature so im using it)
10g because it the lowest amount of liquid that it wont destroy itself.
here is my version with liquid cooling (i use ethanol for this as well.) instead of gas cooling. It has been running for around 500 cycles before the update hit, and still work fine by now.

You also dont need chlorine since at -25C is enough to kill food poisoning, and hydrogen transfer heat to food much faster. For some reason, if food at room temperature and air at deep freeze temperature, when you move screen away, the spoil keep going (very slowly, i noticed it when i use chlorine at room temperature setup, and all my food at 70~80% spoil, and even when i click at them, the spoil rate always go as 0) and make food spoil when you are not looking at it. That why i needed metal tile below to make even food go to deep freeze temperature.

[sakura_sk]

My solution is to just freeze my early CO2 pit next to the great hall and make an inaccessible room for ingredients only.

[Saturnus]

7 minutes ago, sakura_sk said:

My solution is to just freeze my early CO2 pit next to the great hall and make an inaccessible room for ingredients only.

Also a good solution.

To be fair food freshness doesn't really affect my game play a great deal as I've always tried to balance food production with food consumption so that I don't waste dupe labour of producing foods I might never need.

[sakura_sk]

3 minutes ago, Saturnus said:

I don't waste dupe labour

So you do have live dupes too! 

I usually don't dig the entire map so I get annoyed of things rotting left and right. As a result I used to make a vacuum tile to store everything. Now it's frozen too. I would even use a sweepy in the great hall because dupes always leave some food behind.

[Saturnus]

8 minutes ago, sakura_sk said:

I usually don't dig the entire map so I get annoyed of things rotting left and right. As a result I used to make a vacuum tile to store everything. Now it's frozen too. I would even use a sweepy in the great hall because dupes always leave some food behind.

A few sage hatches does the job of cleaning crew quite well without needed floor space or power. In fact they poop power.

[gabberworld]

5 minutes ago, Saturnus said:

A few sage hatches does the job of cleaning crew quite well without needed floor space or power. In fact they poop power.

if this only would work to regolith

[sakura_sk]

5 minutes ago, gabberworld said:

if this only would work to regolith

Does regolith need a fridge...?

[gabberworld]

5 minutes ago, sakura_sk said:

Does regolith need a fridge...?

no, and you not need also add the sage hatch to the fridge as well

if you todo that, then you still need clean floor , what needs todo either automation or cleaner

[DimaB77]

18 hours ago, Tranoze said:

It's a great solution. Simple and understandable to any player. I'll "steal" your scheme into an article, if you don't mind.

I'll add some of my solutions (what I got in a short time).
You've already seen this one (suitable for storing finished product):

This will work for both produce and ingredients:

This is for those who don't like the hole in the floor (the fridge is set for 2 kg):

There are many more options, but less successful.

[Saturnus]

@DimaB77 There's just one problem with all your set ups. Dupes are no longer able to corner grab food so all of them don't work

[DimaB77]

7 minutes ago, Saturnus said:

all of them don't work

Yes, I heard something like that was changed. Quote: There have been some changes on getting dupes "off the corner". I'm not aware of them. Anyway, the general approach is this.

That's okay, any scheme can be passed on. I didn't write "what I got in a short time" for nothing.

But I'm beginning to lose faith in you. What happened to you? Have you ceased to understand simple schemes? Do you really think the 3rd scheme won't work? It takes away the dupes... Or...?

Spoiler

 

/Offtop. Teach me how to post these highlighted links: 

Everyone can do it but me. 

 

 

[Saturnus]

Depends how the 3rd one is set up specifically but I could ask the same question.

Food loses freshness while it's deep freezing. We know that food does not have freshness counter at all inside airlocks. So we can replace the metal tiles with an airlock and device a system that makes sure the food stops inside the airlocks to make sure it's deep frozen before leaving. For example by partly filling the kitchen loader with an inert material, like ceramics. When loaders are filled with two different materials they will alternate on the output. So we can know exactly how many seconds after the loader turned on that the food will be in the airlock, stop the rail by shut down the chute, and then after a few seconds while the food deep freezes, we open the chute again to release what is on the rails. The ceramics is just looped back to the kitchen loader with a separate loader.

[Tranoze]

1 hour ago, DimaB77 said:

It's a great solution. Simple and understandable to any player. I'll "steal" your scheme into an article, if you don't mind.

Something to notice for you to "steal" my scheme since it wasnt in your current scheme yet:
-You want auto sweeper in great hall to deliver any unfinished food  back to storage so they wont spoil
-Conveyer loader cant be build in great hall so seal it with door.
-Add some lightning to your great hall so your dupe finish food faster.

[DimaB77]

20 minutes ago, Tranoze said:

Something to notice for you to "steal" my scheme since it wasnt in your current scheme yet:
-You want auto sweeper in great hall to deliver any unfinished food  back to storage so they wont spoil
-Conveyer loader cant be build in great hall so seal it with door.
-Add some lightning to your great hall so your dupe finish food faster.

I tend to be against optional add-ons, such as a light fixture, etc. Beginning players (it seems to me) may take them as mandatory items. This is not the case, though.
But perhaps in this simple article they would not be superfluous. And of course I can't say no to you! 

39 minutes ago, Saturnus said:

Food loses freshness while it's deep freezing

I must have missed something. And I didn't understand anything from your description (no complaints to you, I have problems with translation and comprehension).
Can you explain in another way or show on a screenshot or give a link to the discussion of the problem?

There are errors in the diagram (e.g. a pipe with natural gas from granite), ignore them.

[Hjoyn]

On 7/16/2021 at 7:21 AM, Tranoze said:

You also dont need chlorine since at -25C is enough to kill food poisoning, and hydrogen transfer heat to food much faster.

Chlorine is not for germs, but for the lowest tc. The goal is not to cool the food quickly, but to cool it as slowly as possible. The entire intent is to cool the food as slowly as possible, so as to minimize the cooling required. At worst, food will be cooled completely, but most of the time it will be consumed before it's completely cooled, thus saving cooling. As for using a thermo regulator, it's less spiky than an aquatuner, and the cooling requirements are so low that the efficiency difference is minimal. 

 

On 7/16/2021 at 7:21 AM, Tranoze said:

if food at room temperature and air at deep freeze temperature, when you move screen away

This is almost certainly a bug, and while I'd have to test it myself, my guess would be that it takes a few ticks for the food to check to atmosphere on load, allowing a tiny amount of decay on load. Hopefully it gets fixed and the point will be moot. 

[Hjoyn]

@DimaB77 Uh, not sure why you didn't just respond to this thread, and you also didn't ping me in the other thread, so it's just luck I saw your response.

Thermo regulator cools slower than the aquatuner, thus reducing heat generated per cooling cycle, increasing the stability of the system. The cooling required is so small that the efficiency cost is worth it for the increased stability. Frankly, the vast majority of the power usage is due to heat leakage from the insulated pipes, but I choose to ignore that in favor of a more compact and simpler design. 

Hydrogen spawns commonly in biomes, and as this build requires a finite amount of hydrogen, that's good enough. It also uses chlorine, which requires a similar amount of biome exploration. This is not supposed to be your first food storage option, which should still be a co2 pit, but your first permanent food storage option. 

As noted, the 3 tile vacuum can and should be easily created with tiles. I've also referenced a guide for creating the hop lock. That guide wasn't included in this post because it's a repost of a tag designed for discord, as mentioned in the post. 

Ethanol can be made from arbor trees if your map does not include it as a spawn, including on terra. I also specifically mentioned crude oil as an alternative. The temp sensor is set to -19°, -25° is roughly the lowest temperature reached by the liquid, which is why that's the stated requirement. 

Less chlorine is better, up to a point. 1kg is a round number that works well, and is easy to implement. The gas meter valve is not the only way, but it is an easy and convenient way. 

The entire point is to have the lowest conductivity possible, via chlorine and an insulated tile, as that reduces the cooling required. 

The two tiles help cool the chlorine faster, allowing you to use less chlorine, and thus less cooling. A metal tile has low mass and shc, so cooling them is no problem on startup. 

The liquid lock is a hop liquid lock, so dupes will never get debuffs passing through it as they never touch the liquid. 

The conveyor has to enter from the bottom as that keeps the food insulated on the way in, as the goal is again to reduce heat transfer from the food. The double bypass is to make filling the loop easier, as it allows you to fill the loop as much as you want. A single bridge allows the loop to be overfilled, which adds complexity to deal with. I'm not sure 6 tiles of pipe really counts as long, and you certainly could shorten it, I just put the thermo regulator in the great hall for simplicity. 

Your scheme, even with an at I suspect, will require more cooling due to vastly increased heat transfer from the food. Additionally, dupes can no longer corner grab, hence the liquid locks to allow access. 

You may have complemented my pictures, but it seems that you did not read the text, as the text answers several of your questions, which is why I put it there. 

You are comparing two different concepts entirely, as you seem to be cooling the food itself, which is the opposite goal of my design. If you do want to cool the food itself, it should be stored in a vacuum, which you do not do. As a result of that and other factors, there are already several vacuum storage designs much better than your current design, although that is subject to change. Vacuum vs gas storage have their tits and tats, gas being on average less total and less upfront cooling, vacuum being more total and entirely upfront cooling, but passively stable afterwards. As such, they are not directly comparable. 

[DimaB77]

 

1 hour ago, Hjoyn said:

You are comparing two different concepts entirely, as you seem to be cooling the food itself, which is the opposite goal of my design

Now I understand your idea (it would have come quicker if you had supplied the post with at least a minimal description), and I agree on many points. Thank you.

2 hours ago, Hjoyn said:

The entire intent is to cool the food as slowly as possible, so as to minimize the cooling required.

The idea is useful and looks logical. What do you say about this comment:

On 7/16/2021 at 7:21 PM, Tranoze said:

That why i needed metal tile below to make even food go to deep freeze temperature.

I am of the opinion that food should be frozen, not just the atmosphere around it. But I don't know which opinion is correct, so as not to make a mistake in the scheme.

[sakura_sk]

1 hour ago, DimaB77 said:

But I don't know which opinion is correct

The game takes into account either the surrounding gas temperature to apply the "deep freeze" status even if the food is at 30C or the food temperature if it is below -18C and there is no gas or higher temperature gas. There is nothing right or wrong. Both lead to the "deep freeze" status. The second one was made to prevent vacuum infinite storage applying 0 K degrees. You can use one of them or you can use both of them.

[Hjoyn]

17 minutes ago, sakura_sk said:

The game takes into account either the surrounding gas temperature to apply the "deep freeze" status even if the food is at 30C or the food temperature if it is below -18C and there is no gas or higher temperature gas. There is nothing right or wrong. Both lead to the "deep freeze" status. The second one was made to prevent vacuum infinite storage applying 0 K degrees. You can use one of them or you can use both of them.

Generally speaking, there are two main methods for getting deep freeze. The gas method uses low mass chlorine and other methods to minimize heat transfer from the food while maintaining an atmosphere at the right temperature. The vacuum method cools the food itself then stores it in a vacuum. The vacuum method requires upfront cooling, but allows long term passive storage. The gas method does not require upfront cooling, and on average uses significantly less cooling in total, but requires the cooling over time. For most people, gas is better mid game, and vacuum is only really needed late game. 

[Tranoze]

8 hours ago, Hjoyn said:

This is almost certainly a bug, and while I'd have to test it myself, my guess would be that it takes a few ticks for the food to check to atmosphere on load, allowing a tiny amount of decay on load. Hopefully it gets fixed and the point will be moot. 

Yes, I save and load a lot since i dont run this game 24/24, and food keep getting decay in my chlorine setup. For now, i dont mind wasting more power for cooling the food itself because i dont want "food spoiled" message.

This bug also cause a problem make all food have different freshness, so when i click on the tile, they are not stack. Having all of them in 100% freshness will alow me to click to choose all of them at once.

[DimaB77]

OK. Here's the CO2 cooling option:

I did not like it much. Compared to my previous option it is more complicated and there is heat loss through ethanol.
Here is another option, for those who might not like the unplugged refrigerator taking up space in the dining room.

This is a mini option for those who do not have a dining room, but I still want to eat :

An option for those who have it:

@Hjoyn, share your options?

[Hjoyn]

3 hours ago, DimaB77 said:

Hjoyn, share your options?

Btw, you need to use @ to mention me, a link to my profile does not mention me, and relies on luck to notify me of the message. 

With chlorine, heat loss through the ethanol is very low, although if that's a concern, you can vacuum gap it like my build does. If you don't, the power cost of the leak is less than 1w. 

For your what I presume are vacuum designs, you haven't shown the conveyor overlay so this is only a guess, but you seem to be cooling the food by putting it on a metal tile, which is a very slow way to cool the food. Instead, you should use a thermo sensor to loop the food through cold metal tiles until it is cool enough, then drop it into the vacuum storage, where it should be on a mesh tile. Additionally, you don't need to use sweepers to extract the food, just put it behind a liquid lock as no heat will leak into the vacuum. 

[DimaB77]

3 minutes ago, Hjoyn said:

you need to use @ to mention me,

It didn't work (see post above).

9 minutes ago, Hjoyn said:

you haven't shown the conveyor overlay

Mixed cooling of both CO2 and the food itself. Of course I will give the link as soon as I test and write an article.

[Hjoyn]

20 minutes ago, DimaB77 said:

It didn't work (see post above).

Mixed cooling of both CO2 and the food itself. Of course I will give the link as soon as I test and write an article.

If you are cooling the food itself, then storing it in a vacuum is the obvious choice. Co2 is kind of the worst of both worlds there, low but not very low tc.