Webber, his rework, and addressing some whining

[Copyafriend]

Webber is now one of the strongest characters.

no wendy is not “webber but better”, you can build rediculous armys as webber, i could take Abby down with 15 warrior spiders and no nurse, and if wendy brings a spectral cure all, 5 of those warriors can be nurses and outheal abbys damage entirely. Yes she’s better in teamplay, thats not what i’m saying, but abby being able to completely outclass webber is a thing of the past.

thats not to say webber is a better wendy, thats also not my point, in a group of even 2 people i would rather have a wendy than a webber, but for solo play webber has her beat.

why is this? The reasoning is very simple.

you can now build an infinite army of warriors with nothing but a t2 nest, a couple traps, and patience. A trap is 2 sticks and 6 grass and has 8 uses. “And? Whats your point” my point is spiders respawn in 90 seconds and the webby whistle calls out warrior spiders too. All you have to do is separate them out and put the trap on them, and they’re immediately homeless, either hold onto him or drop him, either way thenest is now spawning a new one, and quickly too, with 3 nests you could have 9 spiders in under 5 minutes, and despite some peoples claims that they’re weak, a warrior is almost as strong as a pig, if not slightly stronger. Less dps but proportionately more health. (50% more damage compared to a spider, but if you scale his healh 50% more you realize he falls a little short at 375, they’ll typically go blow for blow and its kinda up in the air who wins) 

what does all this mean? Well it means that with a healthy (not insane, just healthy) supply of sticks and grass you can easily form very large armies of warrior spiders without needing switcherdoodles at all. 
 

this is entirely possible with other forms of spiders as well (to varying degrees of success) for example, spilagmites have a 33% to spawn a spitter period, so if an earthquake (hint hint) happens myyysterrriously, all cave spiders remaining outside go back in, and have a 1 in 3 chance of coming back out as a spitter, and respawn every 2 minutes.  If you find a large group of spilagmites you could gather up spitters relatively quickly, though you would need a lot of space or the bundling wrap blueprint.

The problem is that in pubs your spilagmites are not going to survive too long, as a particularly skilled player can destroy it with ease for the fossils.
 

This doesn’t mean switcherdoodles dont need to be made cheaper or more numerous per craft, but it does mean that very large armys are VERY obtainable in a relatively short amount of time for little investment.

but this isn’t about switcherdoodles or spitters or warriors, its about webber being really strong, which he is.

nurse spiders, once gathered from a queen or simply switcherdoodled, can very very easily make webber the toughest character in the game.

8 health per heal per nurse. With a small group healing is alarmingly unnecessary with a simple football helmet, gather up 20 and be careful and armor isnt needed either. And there is no limit to the number of nurses you can have. 
 

combine unprecedentedly available large armys of capable troops with a self and group healing mechanic and you have a recipe for an honestly kind of overpowered character. If you disagree you really dont see the potential. I dont need to tame them all for them to participate in a boss fight either, as soon as the boss hits a spider the rest will join on their own. Its not bunnymen levels of choosing to target things, but keep a spider mask on to convince startled spiders to try again and honestly anything other than toadstool, celestial champion and bearger are in some serious danger.

also quit complaining they eat meat, of course they do, they’re ravenous spiders, plan ahead for it or dont use them.

[QuartzBeam]

I'm not sure what fascinates me most about this: the reasoning or the attitude?

[Copyafriend]

19 minutes ago, QuartzBeam said:

I'm not sure what fascinates me most about this: the reasoning or the attitude?

I guess i was a little heated.

but i was sick of the same few complaints as if webber was still useless or weak. 
 

“wendy is webber but better”

i dont see abi healing wendy

 

”spiders are weak” not really the only thing that’s technically weak about them is their individual dps, but thats why we have a swarm.

”boo hoo spiders ate my meat” oh dang, if only we had a webby whistle now, or a ranged spider that might kill birds for me perhaps.

spiders are carnivores, because they eat so fast i’m fairly confident them eating meat on the ground from fights was an intended downside

[CyberSkink]

I agree with most of these things, honestly, what would make me the most happy is if the spiders kept following you after re-log or going through shards. I don’t want to have to keep using up meat that should be used for other things, especially if the spiders have an “infinite follow timer” also, I think the spitters might have gotten nerfed, because they don’t spit at a long range anymore, idk, maybe I just wasn’t paying attention. One more thing, I think that Abigail should not attack spiders unless they are specifically locked onto her, this would make a great synergy, and I’m frankly tired of the wicker and wx/wolf synergy. Other than that though, I’m quite satisfied with the rework, it brings new and interesting mechanics to the table of dst without making Webber literally the strongest character in the game. But those are just my thoughts. I’m curious as to what other people have to say on the matter. 

[TemporarySolutn]

i was gonna read it but then i realized it was an entire autobiography

[ZombieDupe]

Webber can build a fierce army, but it comes at a huge resource and time investment cost, more than any other character at their peak performance. It becomes even more so if you try to use spiders against creatures with AOE attacks. Getting just warriors isn't the best and naturally they are a bit rare. Besides carrying spiders fills up your inventory fast. There is an upper limit to spiders that can attack a single target before they start pushing each other around being unable to reach far enough for an attack, which is part of what makes Spitters stand out.

[kerillian 1417]

Wendy is still the best at killing mobs and Wolfgang is still the best at killing boss, Webber main advantages is dps but in numbers and he is best at neither of these plus all the inconvenience from spiders and being an anti-social character , so definitely not even close to the strongest character

[Mysterious box]

39 minutes ago, ZombieDupe said:

Webber can build a fierce army, but it comes at a huge resource and time investment cost, more than any other character at their peak performance. It becomes even more so if you try to use spiders against creatures with AOE attacks. Getting just warriors isn't the best and naturally they are a bit rare. Besides carrying spiders fills up your inventory fast. There is an upper limit to spiders that can attack a single target before they start pushing each other around being unable to reach far enough for an attack, which is part of what makes Spitters stand out.

Warriors and dangles can push past with their leap and shattered spiders can also attack at a distance.

Building up a army is cheaper than you think unless your building it full of spitters and once you have it they won't fall easily getting you far more resources than you invest and trivializing 90 percent of all combat scenarios. Also...

3 hours ago, TitanicTigrex said:

I agree with most of these things, honestly, what would make me the most happy is if the spiders kept following you after re-log or going through shards. I don’t want to have to keep using up meat that should be used for other things, especially if the spiders have an “infinite follow timer” also, I think the spitters might have gotten nerfed, because they don’t spit at a long range anymore, idk, maybe I just wasn’t paying attention. One more thing, I think that Abigail should not attack spiders unless they are specifically locked onto her, this would make a great synergy, and I’m frankly tired of the wicker and wx/wolf synergy. Other than that though, I’m quite satisfied with the rework, it brings new and interesting mechanics to the table of dst without making Webber literally the strongest character in the game. But those are just my thoughts. I’m curious as to what other people have to say on the matter. 

Going by the bug report this is going to happen in the next hotfix spitters aren't nerfed they just attempt to move closer and when they get in bite range they stop shooting.

 

3 hours ago, Copyafriend said:

I guess i was a little heated.

but i was sick of the same few complaints as if webber was still useless or weak. 
 

“wendy is webber but better”

i dont see abi healing wendy

 

”spiders are weak” not really the only thing that’s technically weak about them is their individual dps, but thats why we have a swarm.

”boo hoo spiders ate my meat” oh dang, if only we had a webby whistle now, or a ranged spider that might kill birds for me perhaps.

spiders are carnivores, because they eat so fast i’m fairly confident them eating meat on the ground from fights was an intended downside

Thank you I've felt like a madman defending why webber isn't close to weak now.

10 minutes ago, kerillian 1417 said:

Wendy is still the best at kills mobs and Wolfgang is still the best at killing boss, Webber main advantages is dps but in numbers and he is best at neither of these plus all the inconvenience from spiders , so definitely not even close to the strongest character

Webber is going to end any fight where spiders won't be instantly killed by boss damage scaling faster than wolfgang

While wendy will be queen against huge hordes webber will still do well and he will beat her when clearing out higher hp mobs.

[kerillian 1417]

11 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

Webber is going to end any fight where spiders won't be instantly killed by boss damage scaling faster than wolfgang

only limited to boss with non-aoe attack and u going to need quite a lot of spiders to out dps Wolfgang and dont forget the spicy jelly buff, mobs wise with enough spiders yes he outplays abby, but Wendy doesnt need to prep anything for that, he is decent almost good now but saying him being one of the strongest is laughable

[Mysterious box]

2 minutes ago, kerillian 1417 said:

only limited to boss with non-aoe attack like and u going to need quite a lot of spiders to out dps Wolfgang and dont forget the spicy jelly buff, mobs wise with enough spiders yes he outplays abby, but Wendy doesnt need to prep anything for that, he is decent almost good now but saying him being one of the strongest is laughable

Proven not to be true there are multiple aoe bosses spiders can fight and you have to remember webber won't need to kite or heal unlike wolfgang then add on that he can also use spicy jelly too.

it takes 6 cave spiders to match abby's dps 1v1 assuming she's using a night potion

[kerillian 1417]

Just now, Mysterious box said:

Proven not to be true there are multiple aoe bosses spiders can fight and you have to remember webber won't need to kite or heal unlike wolfgang then add on that he can also use spicy jelly too.

yes they can fight just not as efficient as wolfgang, I m saying he is a decent combat character now and fun but definitely not strongest

[Mysterious box]

2 minutes ago, kerillian 1417 said:

yes they can fight just not as efficient as wolfgang, I m saying he is a decent combat character now and fun but definitely not strongest

How is a self healing army of dpsing spiders who remove the need to kite not as efficent?

keep in mind unless it's raining when both are buffed webber's own damage not including the spiders will be 1.7 vs wolfgangs 3x however wolfgang will need to stop to heal, kite, and eat to maintain his damage and life on the other hand webber just need to keep a stack of armor and hold F.

[kerillian 1417]

how is recruiting army of spiders that only limited to non-aoe boss  to achieve dps wolfgang can output  with just some food or wendy with just one click to the flower as efficient?and u not even considering the inconveniences spiders bring to other players and they become feral when relog or enter cave ********

[Mysterious box]

6 minutes ago, kerillian 1417 said:

how is recruiting army of spiders that only limited to non-aoe boss  to achieve dps wolfgang can output  with just some food as efficient?

It's been shown multiple times that his spiders can also face aoe attackers like guardian and deerclops. Recruiting a army of spiders is just using some food as well since they have no cost to upkeep it likely uses less food than wolfgang in the long run your saying wolfgang is just using food but he's also character swaping and managing farms so clearly there's more work involved on his end.

Actually when promoting Wolfgang I notice he's always given as much time as needed to prepare vs other characters when people talk about him for some reason.

[kerillian 1417]

Please Deerclops and Guardian? Deerclop is weak and guardian only has minimal aoe attack and u can cheese it easily anway, and like I said you r not even considering the inconveniences managing the spiders like blocking ur space eating ur meat sh't brings to other players and u have to re-feed all of them one by one after relogging or entering cave

[Mysterious box]

5 minutes ago, kerillian 1417 said:

Please Deerclops and Guardian? Deerclop is weak and guardian only has minimal aoe attack and u can cheese it easily anway, and like I said you r not even considering the inconveniences managing the spiders like blocking ur space eating ur meat sh't brings to other players and u have to re-feed all of them one by one after relogging or entering cave

Considering the bug report I don't think the server thing is going to be a issue after the next hotfix and these are just some of the ones people have tried as the update is fresh don't see why you think they couldn't handle others? I'm not saying they can fight every boss but if they can beat most that simply means webber is stronger in most situations. I think Wolfgang's legacy has become so great it's become blasphemy to even consider he might slowly be getting power crept 

[kerillian 1417]

if that re-logging bull@@@@ can be fixed hopefully then okay he is good

[HowlVoid]

I've seen way too many people confuse feedback for whining recently.

I have seen many valid points about how the rework could be polished and it would be foolish to mistaken it for "whining". 

6 hours ago, Copyafriend said:

also quit complaining they eat meat, of course they do, they’re ravenous spiders, plan ahead for it or dont use them.

Just because you're willing to put up with it doesn't mean its a good feature. No other befriended followers are gimped this way and it would only improve the webber experience for everyone. 

There have been many times where player feedback was incorporated into the game. 

[Mysterious box]

36 minutes ago, HowlVoid said:

I've seen way too many people confuse feedback for whining recently.

I have seen many valid points about how the rework could be polished and it would be foolish to mistaken it for "whining". 

Just because you're willing to put up with it doesn't mean its a good feature. No other befriended followers are gimped this way and it would only improve the webber experience for everyone. 

There have been many times where player feedback was incorporated into the game. 

Pigs will eat meat when they see it and so will merms and bunnymen with non meat items the difference is spiders do it faster.

That being said they have been good on changing things people have found annoying lately so if you report it as a bug they'll likely fix it if someone hasn't already.

[HowlVoid]

27 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

Pigs will eat meat when they see it and so will merms and bunnymen with non meat items the difference is spiders do it faster.

That being said they have been good on changing things people have found annoying lately so if you report it as a bug they'll likely fix it if someone hasn't already.

Not quite at the same speed as spiders, it is I was referring to when I said gimped.

Someone pointed out that the window between defensive mode activating (the whistle animation) and them being attracted to meat is like a fraction of a second. 

[Scrimbles]

You are mistaking "being over powered" for "being a fun and balanced character that engages people and expands on what they like about Webber".

Don't Starve should be a challenging game, first and foremost, its a survival game at its core, being able to snap the game in half devalues it. Yes, numbers say Webber is stronger, but who cares about strength if he is still lacking in design?

I hated this when seeing peoples reaction to nerfing Wickerbottom, reeling back the power of her books makes more room for interesting design, and a more balanced set of mechanics, but people were more interested in her being "good" than "fun and well thought out", because right now all Wickerbottom has going for her is being overpowered, she needs MORE to her core gameplay to make her a fun and engaging character, and so does Webber, except Webber had his spider gimmick in place of power.

[Mysterious box]

17 minutes ago, Scrimbles said:

You are mistaking "being over powered" for "being a fun and balanced character that engages people and expands on what they like about Webber".

Don't Starve should be a challenging game, first and foremost, its a survival game at its core, being able to snap the game in half devalues it. Yes, numbers say Webber is stronger, but who cares about strength if he is still lacking in design?

I hated this when seeing peoples reaction to nerfing Wickerbottom, reeling back the power of her books makes more room for interesting design, and a more balanced set of mechanics, but people were more interested in her being "good" than "fun and well thought out", because right now all Wickerbottom has going for her is being overpowered, she needs MORE to her core gameplay to make her a fun and engaging character, and so does Webber, except Webber had his spider gimmick in place of power.

Wait design wise what is webber lacking? His core design is horde fighter even if they may have took it abit too far.

Actually even on the thematic level webber was done alot of justice this update really made it feel like your one of the spiders on multiple levels.

[Copyafriend]

24 minutes ago, Scrimbles said:

You are mistaking "being over powered" for "being a fun and balanced character that engages people and expands on what they like about Webber".

Don't Starve should be a challenging game, first and foremost, its a survival game at its core, being able to snap the game in half devalues it. Yes, numbers say Webber is stronger, but who cares about strength if he is still lacking in design?

I hated this when seeing peoples reaction to nerfing Wickerbottom, reeling back the power of her books makes more room for interesting design, and a more balanced set of mechanics, but people were more interested in her being "good" than "fun and well thought out", because right now all Wickerbottom has going for her is being overpowered, she needs MORE to her core gameplay to make her a fun and engaging character, and so does Webber, except Webber had his spider gimmick in place of power.

Design wise, webber is fairly complete, his gimmick is spiders, now he has access to all spiders indiscriminately and the ability to control them. (Oh yeah and deadpool level regeneration powers that are imho over the top if pushed even a little)

 

44 minutes ago, HowlVoid said:

Not quite at the same speed as spiders, it is I was referring to when I said gimped.

Someone pointed out that the window between defensive mode activating (the whistle animation) and them being attracted to meat is like a fraction of a second. 

And maybe it would be fair to give a half second more time to react, but they’re ravenous and they want to eat your food, i think its an intended downside, i find it annoying too, but you dont need every scrap of meat you come across, if you’re hurting for food, cause a spider war or wage war on the amphibians and eat/feed spiders their legs

 

4 hours ago, kerillian 1417 said:

only limited to boss with non-aoe attack and u going to need quite a lot of spiders to out dps Wolfgang and dont forget the spicy jelly buff, mobs wise with enough spiders yes he outplays abby, but Wendy doesnt need to prep anything for that, he is decent almost good now but saying him being one of the strongest is laughable

I never said he had the best dps, itd be weird if he outplayed the combination of the two strongest damage buffing character perks working together.

also if you were paying attention youd notice my point was: he doesnt really need a lot of prep to outmatch abby if you play it smart, and my army heals me and itself while abby needs extra prep to survive anything stronger than knights, oh yeah and also they’re permanent so once i get a large army i can just blitz surface bosses repeatedly for effectively free

[Guille6785]

all combat characters are overrated

[Guille6785]

2 hours ago, Scrimbles said:

I hated this when seeing peoples reaction to nerfing Wickerbottom, reeling back the power of her books makes more room for interesting design, and a more balanced set of mechanics, but people were more interested in her being "good" than "fun and well thought out", because right now all Wickerbottom has going for her is being overpowered

do I seriously have to explain for the 417th time why wicker is not overpowered