EVERYTHING we know about Portals, Dimensions, Magic and the frayed fabric of reality

[W0l0l0]

Did the Codex Umbra teleport itself/travel with Maxwell to the constant or are there two versions of it, one leading to the other,  and the other still being on Earth? 

[Tim S.]

On 5/25/2021 at 3:58 PM, Cassielu said:

BTW. I felt that the PR-76 was not a dimensional travel device. In the Wes short we learned that shadow portal and shadow hand does not need a radio or any device to appear in our world. PR-76 was just doing what it was meant to do —— transmitting and modulate signals, but between different worlds. 

"Requires a PR-76 tuned to the right frequency."——wagstaff, exam locked Teleportato in adventure mode

"Amazing! It appears to work similar to my radio."——wagstaff, exam Sea Worther. sea worther is a radar, remember that?

Ahh, that does make more sense, thank you very much!


Speaking of these abductions: every confirmed abduction so far (except for Maxwell's and Winonas ofc) happens to show either a Gramaphone or a PR-76. 

- Wilson obviously communicated with Maxwell through his Radio.
- Woodie had a Radio in his shed (which is described as a "trap that had lain dormant for years".
- Walter investigated Woodies shed. When he touched Woodie's Radio, Ragtime began playing and the shadow hands appeared
- Wigfrid owned a Gramaphone, which was placed perfectly in shot when Maxwell began speaking
- Warly too had a Gamaphone, through which Maxwell baited him. (As time went on and Angeline's moments of clarity became fewer and farther in-between, Warly became more desperate, willing to try anything to bring back his beloved Maman... That was when he first started hearing the voice on the radio," - Taste of Home description
- Wendy's abduction wasn't described so far, but according to her nightstand-Vignette, she kept hearing a weird song in her dreams, possibly Ragtime, possibly leading up to her abduction.
- Wes obviously wasn't the target. There are many details though, complicating George T. Witherstone's failed abduction. 

First of all, the abduction feels weird to me in general. What is George doing in this narrow dark alleyway in the first place? And why did he take his hat off when he certainly walks with his hat on? Did he calmly take it off when the arms appeared? Also he doesn't look surprised and doesn't even try to get away. He just looks.. woeful. and sad. Taking this and his hat into account, it almost feels as if he knew what was going to happen and calmly bid farewell to his world.
 

Secondly, he is hinted to be involved with the shadow creatures in some way. The picture in his apartment seems so distinct, it would be weird for this to bear no meaning or implication whatsoever. If George knew about the shadow creatures and did cooperate/interact with them (?), this abduction differs from other abductions.

Thirdly, there was a Gramaphone in his flat. Maybe Maxwell communicated with George through this device? Maybe George knew that he will be abducted (for whatever reason). Maybe George pleaded to at least do it somewhere outside, so that his daughter won't see him get taken away? Maybe the Radio isn't the source of the portals, maybe it's in the victim's heads. Just like the song stuck inside Wendy's head, hearing from Maxwell once suffices for him to take you anytime he wants to.. There isn't much supporting all of this though.. His daughter would've heard him talking to Maxwell, and if she was away during the talk, there's no reason Maxwell didn't take him right then. Also it doesn't seem like he said goodbye to his daughter or anything. Not a thing a loving dad would do.. So the more I think about it, the abduction might be just a regular abduction for unknown reasons and his weird facial expressions, the alley-thing and his hat are probably just design choices for the short to look good. It was worth a shot, though.



So yeah, you're probably right about the Radios. Maybe the Radios and even Gramaphones utilize dimensional rifts to transfer information through the realms? Would be weird for a Gramophone to transmit or receive anything at all though...


 

On 5/25/2021 at 4:30 PM, W0l0l0 said:

Did the Codex Umbra teleport itself/travel with Maxwell to the constant or are there two versions of it, one leading to the other,  and the other still being on Earth? 

Great question!
Well I don't know.. In "Resumptus" we see a completely empty stage, right afterwards the Codex Umbra and a rose in the Constant..

If the stage is empty, the book got transferred.
We do have a picture of the thrashed stage with the film reel containing the test run of Maxwells new finale in the center, so one might assume that the stage got severely damaged by the Shadow Hand's rampage/the earthquake and that the stage we see in Resumptus isn't showing the present time. After all, I think Resumptus is just very symbolic and shouldn't be interpreted this way.



There were many people looking for the missing persons (Maxwell and Charlie too, I reckon?), so if the theater was checked, the Codex might've been found (unless the shadow creatures somehow removed the book). There likely was no audience attending their test run though, so who knows whether anyone knew where to look for Maxwell and Charlie? But the San Francisco theater was cleaned up from debris I guess, and I think the newspaper would have documented a finding as weird as the Codex Umbra

[Mooagain]

2 hours ago, Tim S. said:

Would be weird for a Gramophone to transmit or receive anything at all though

I'd be surprised if Wagstaff designed anything that worked the way you'd expect it to.

[WebberMain]

On 5/25/2021 at 11:00 AM, Wendy C. said:

I think the Survivors are severely underestimating the usefulness of the Codex when it comes to these higher forces. 
And Maxwell seems to be either purposefully or incidentally ignoring some of the more extreme sub-chapters of knowledge the book contains. 
I daresay we haven't even begun to see what it is truly capable of. 

There is no limit to the power of Shadows,
Maybe it is DST bible so to say trough which Shadows comunicate.

Shadows are a perfect analogy to Mephistopheles from the pen of J W Goethe.Mephistopheles is a demon who needs a invitation to enter(shadows were invited trough the gateway and trough the book to our dimension) and he represents the knowledge which is hidden and forbidden by the church(shadows promise knowledge trough which you can achieve what you desire,another religious reference).Maxwell is Faust, a man who is bored with his life.Then Mephisto(Shadows) come into play.Maxwell gets  famous,but the contract needs to be fulfilled(him being dragged in and imprisoned).But his misdeeds are forgiven and he is  released from his shackles with Wilson taking his place.Then the queen comes into play.The queen is the strongest chess figure,but that´s it.She is just a figure bound to the board in a game of (possibly two) primordial entities with Waggstaff  somewhere in the middle as an observer.
 

J̴̢̡̛̛̲̥͍͓͖̟̹̙̮̦̳̬̫͌̿̈́̈̇͌̐̉͐͂͂ǫ̷̼͎̪͇̏̿̐͘i̸̧͙̬̯̤͑̓̅̓̈́̎̌͊͘̚͝n̵̡̢̪̥͉̗̽̽̓̍͂͘ ̷̱̖̝̞̼͎͐̈́͊́͐̊̽̄̀̚u̸̡̨̡̡̜̪̲̥̝͍̯͑̈́̑̈̀̚̚̚̚s̸̩̭̣̲̮̹͇̫̒,̵̢̥͇̲̟͛̕ ̷̮̥͔͈͇̗̪̞̩͖̀̎̈́̊͂ͅs̴͕̖̳̠̈̈̍ͅͅų̸̭͔̠͓̞̲͔̞̞̤͈͔̩̖̀̋̑̋̈́̿͐̈́̐͝c̷̗̈́̀̎̀͊̏͝c̸̲̺̤͖̩̝̳̖̥̥̜̺̙̳͖̽̒͑͑̐̎͊̾̀́̅̀̆̚ṷ̷̧͈̝̪̩̞̟͉͉̥͋̍͐̐̉͋̊͊̔̆͝͠͝m̷̰̹̺̞̫̹̺̗̹̱̦̈̂͒̇̔͗͝ͅͅͅb̶̢͙̟̰̠̣̰̮̗͇̎̃̌͒ ̷̫̼̱̼̱̞̼̬͔̹̥̖́͆̀͗͑t̷̨͙̺̮͊͌́̊̅̓̕ỏ̵̡͖̺̱̻̜̳̭͕̑͝ͅ ̴̨̢̠̙̭̲͖͍̩̱̜̰̲̞̭̆̎̀̊ţ̶͍͈̠̜̟̝̣̺͓̘̈́̽̔̊͑̓̏̔͒ͅh̵̨̞̘̠̫̗͓̤̥͉̖̻̀̀̐̍͋́̅͠e̷̙̼̝̣̜̟̽̌́͐̄̾͗͘͘͝ ̴̢̛̣̰͓̰̬̰̦͔̠̣͉͈̉̿̔̍̈́̌̔̐̋̃̀̈́̋̾d̷̩̹̭̺͔̻̣̤̀͝a̵̢̡̨̢̛̰̹̘̹̫̙͎̭͊ͅȓ̴̢̠͕͎͕͎̖̙͍̣̌̾̈́͘k̶̨̡̛̦͚̥̹̝̏̄́́́̈́͂̽͜͝ͅn̵͈͓̱̜͍̈́̎̚ê̶̛̯̖̺̪͆̂̏̅̒̚̚̕͠s̸̢̨̲̣̗̎̏́́͒̂̈́̿̓̋͘š̷̞͎̳͚͚͜͜ ̶̢̨͓͔̺͓̫̙͙̬̣̥̮͉̦͋̑w̵͙̳͚̪͈̹͚̣̝̒̆͠i̷̡̞̲̮̙̞̮͆̐̅̎͝t̴̰̱̪͌͜h̴̛͖̦̭̗̝̝̳̙̜͙̥̥̿͛̋̄̐͋͑͛͘͜͝͝ī̴̧̡̧͈̗̤̿̎̐̀̃̓̍̑̌̐̽͝͠n̴͔̫̉̅͆̊̅̇̽̽̅̆.̶̧̢̛͈̺̞̦̻̲̝̪̔̅̓̋̿͋̀͒̀̾̌̅͒͜͠

[Tim S.]

[Added 3.5 Deep Sleep and spirits trapped between worlds]

B-)



"'%s's immoral acts are putting holes in my multiverse speculations." - Wickerbottom, exam. Attacker Wickerbottom
Please please please please please elaborate, Klei

[Wendy C.]

Hm. Sleeping has been believed to have certain magical qualities about it. 
Communing with the dead via dreams has been a trope as old as humanity. 
The only question is whether or not the Gestalts and Ghosts actually do inhabit the same realm, or if they come from different, yet similar realms. 
Perpendicular, instead of parallels.. 

[Tim S.]

[Added 3.6 About the Hub and the Thrones]

As described in 3.6 I think the Nightmare Throne is located in the Shadow Realm, which in turn would be the Hub.

Thoughts?
Am I jumping to conclusions?

[Wendy C.]

12 hours ago, Tim S. said:

[Added 3.6 About the Hub and the Thrones]

As described in 3.6 I think the Nightmare Throne is located in the Shadow Realm, which in turn would be the Hub.

Thoughts?
Am I jumping to conclusions?

I feel like Pugna's comments alone more or less confirm this conclusion; your idea is validated. 
Especially considering the Nightmare Throne seems to control all shadow everywhere, where else would such a thing be located other than the Shadow Realm?

[Tim S.]

[Added 4. Every instance of magic neatly cataloged]
Here's to you, Wendy 

[Added 4.3 White Magic - "I could be persuaded to dabble in white magicks."]
[Added 4.4 Forest Magic - "There is Magic in the Trees"]
The other ones are yet to come. Might take a while; there's gonna be a lot to cover. I'm really hyped for Crystal Magic, though!


So are Mandrakes possessed by Lunar Magic? And if so, could they maybe even originate from Archival Ancient Times?

Best wishes!

[Wendy C.]

Spoiler

3 hours ago, Tim S. said:

Here's to you, Wendy 

Hee-hee, you flatter me. 

The mandrake is actually a fascinating little root-vegetable. 
In real life, "the root is hallucinogenic and narcotic (having paralyzing and sleep-inducing properties). In sufficient quantities, it induces a state of unconsciousness and was used as an anesthetic for surgery...When taken internally in large doses, however, it is said to excite delirium and madness." 
(Taken from Wikipedia, which unfortunately does not have much more information on mandrakes). 

It's possible that the mandrakes don't have a particularly strong connection to Lunar Magic, and their ability to render things incapacitated is either due to their own chemical makeup, or to a more 'natural', forest magic. 

Although I don't rightly know why the Elder Mandrakes are so calm during full moons; in real lore, mandrakes are said to scream at such intense volumes that it near-instantly kills anyone who hears it, and they are often believed to do this at night. If anything, the Elder Mandrakes should surely be MORE violent and hostile during full moons.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In the past, the most prolific practitioners of 'Forest Magic' were Druids, or other forest-dwelling pagans of often European cultural lines. 
It focuses on the notion that every individual tree is alive and spiritually active, that the trees are conscious and aware, and that they have power that can be shared with those who seek it. The common superstition of "knocking on wood" was meant to protect you from vengeful spirits of irony. If you said something like "I hope I don't break a bone" and then knocked on the tree, the tree's spirit would protect you from any evil spirits who would wish to make you suffer from the dramatic irony of you in fact breaking a bone.
I highly doubt the ground-up, pulverized and glued-together wood fibers your desk is made of have any intention of protecting you from any harm haha
So the forest magic that Maxwell and Wigfrid talk about would definitely be of this kind; that the forest itself is a living being with its own agenda and knowledge, that each tree is an individual within that system, and magic can either be purchased from, studied under, or stolen from, the trees themselves; the magical properties of the fungus I think qualifies as they are quite unlike any other magical discipline we've seen. 

Along that same vein of thought, I believe that the single piece of monster meat dropped by the Treeguard is meant to represent the Heart of the tree itself, which upon death, has dropped as a piece of bleeding flesh, cut out from the wood. 
It has been rumored that if you cut into a tree with an axe and the sap oozes with a particularly blood-like quality, it evidences that the tree is alive and aware. And in pain. And very angry. 
Blood comes from where else but the heart, and this piece of monster meat is it. 
Despite character dialogue referencing the monster meat as being "utterly dripping with evil and hate", I don't think that's particularly fair or true, and it too much of a catch-all statement. 
Monster meat is, simply, meat from a monster. What is or is not a "monster" is entirely dependent on if it drops monster meat or not. 
Merms are not monsters, pigs just don't like them. Imps are monsters, but the Pig King will still trade with them. 
Treeguards spawn when the forest is unjustly under attack without you planting any pinecones to repair the damage you've caused. Treeguards that spawn naturally or ones you are not responsible for, are neutral to you. To describe these creatures as "absolutely and completely evil" is blatantly wrong, I say. It follows that their flesh likewise surely cannot be as dripping with physical malice as the survivors claim. 
It is poisonous and toxic to ingest, absolutely. It may even be hallucinogenic. But evil? I'm not convinced. 

Evil Flowers on the other hand can be hand-pressed together to extract Nightmare Fuel like pressing oil from seeds, or honey from honeycomb. Their putrid evil is clear and evidence of it can be empirically reproduced. 

Monsters have a tendency to be aggressive and violent, but that is not always the case. I do not believe that monster meat itself is an evil substance or that it has any real dark power beyond being naturally poisonous.

The Poison Birchnuts, however, do seem to be truly evil. Despite spawning the same way Treeguards do, Poison Birchnuts are actively hostile and violent to all living creatures, including innocent creatures such as butterflies, birds, pigs, and catcoons. I'm not sure why they are evil but they evidently are fueled by quite a lot of rage and hate. It's not much of a surprise that the baby Birchnutters can occasionally drop Nightmare Fuel. 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Another piece of magic that is extremely unexplored is the Primordial Magic of the True Name. 
The concept of the True Name is ubiquitous across all human civilizations no matter the cultural divides. 
If you speak the True Name of a being, you have power over it, and can exert your will upon it. The True Name is combined with the very SOUL of the thing it names, and is inseparable from it. 
In some traditions, speaking the True Name of a genie (or Djinn) is what caused it to be enslaved to the lamp, or is what allows you to free it if you wish. 
Even in Undertale, typing in "Chara", simply has the game bluntly tell you that it is "The True Name". This is an important factor in the game's story since one of its primary lessons is that speaking the name of the 'demon' is what summons it. When that demon is, in fact, just an extension of your own greed and sadomasochism given sentience, the plain matter-of-fact nature of the statement has added fridge-horror. But I digress. 

The point is that since Alter is meant to be a kind of Old One, ala 'The Dunwich Horror', or 'Call of Cthulhu', the saying of his name, especially out-loud, is not something that should be done lightly. It is a very serious thing that can have physical consequences. Whether 'Alter' is even his True Name is debatable, but if his power is truly what its implied to be, I think he would be very aware that people were talking about him. 

This last segment didn't really have anything to do with the lore of Don't Starve, more so it was just a piece of exposition and out-loud thinking. 
As I said earlier I study magic as a hobby and the True Name is often considered one of the most powerful forms of magic in the stories it makes appearances in. 

[Tim S.]

Thank you very much for your elaborations!
 

2 hours ago, Wendy C. said:

Along that same vein of thought, I believe that the single piece of monster meat dropped by the Treeguard is meant to represent the Heart of the tree itself, which upon death, has dropped as a piece of bleeding flesh, cut out from the wood. 
[...] 
Monster meat is, simply, meat from a monster. What is or is not a "monster" is entirely dependent on if it drops monster meat or not. 
[...]
It follows that their flesh likewise surely cannot be as dripping with physical malice as the survivors claim. 
[...]
Monsters have a tendency to be aggressive and violent, but that is not always the case. I do not believe that monster meat itself is an evil substance or that it has any real dark power beyond being naturally poisonous.

These are very important and I didn't think these aspects through enough! I assumed Shadow Fuel tainting regular Meat as indicated from Rabbit- Bunnymen- and Splumonkey-Transformatios would imply information about Monster Meat itself. 
Indeed Glommers (more precicely Glomgloms) are described as Monsters and do drop Monster Meat, while they certainly aren't confirmed to hide malevolent intentions. More importantly, the Ancient Guardian is downright confirmed to be have been influenced by Nightmare Fuel, yet his meat is tasty and healthy. 
I will remove the "Treeguards dropping Monster Meat indicating Shadow Magic" part, much obliged!

 

3 hours ago, Wendy C. said:

If you speak the True Name of a being, you have power over it, and can exert your will upon it. The True Name is combined with the very SOUL of the thing it names, and is inseparable from it. 
[...]
The point is that since Alter is meant to be a kind of Old One, ala 'The Dunwich Horror', or 'Call of Cthulhu', the saying of his name, especially out-loud, is not something that should be done lightly. It is a very serious thing that can have physical consequences. Whether 'Alter' is even his True Name is debatable, but if his power is truly what its implied to be, I think he would be very aware that people were talking about him. 

Oh that would be most interesting! It begs the question whether "Alter" was a name given by the Archival Ancients in reference to Alters transformational characteristic, or whether they grasped his name while receiving and embracing his knowledge (possibly becoming a part of his being). Given that the Archival Ancients locked their knowledge away and buried their past deep within the caves, said knowledge likely holds grave dangers on itself.
Alter seemingly affects individuals in accordance to their lunacy/mental constitution. Since the Celestial Champions Crown provides the wearer with knowledge and as such higher Sanity/Lunacy, we should be wary about any Lunar Knowledge we perceive.

 

[ArubaroBeefalo]

4 hours ago, Wendy C. said:

Evil Flowers on the other hand can be hand-pressed together to extract Nightmare Fuel like pressing oil from seeds, or honey from honeycomb. Their putrid evil is clear and evidence of it can be empirically reproduced.

great analisis and exposition

the part i quote just made me remember that in DS flowers become evil flowers at full moon which, with the new lore, doesnt seem to have sense since why the moon can convert regular flowers into nightmere fuel source? same happens with hamlet and how the aporkalisis work

[Hornete]

7 hours ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

same happens with hamlet and how the aporkalisis work

An idea/theory that I really like is that the Moon loses all it's power during the Aporkalypse and that causes nightmare magic to go crazy in Hamlet, the aporkalypse is a lunar eclipse, in real life a lunar eclipse happens when the Earth blocks the moon from the sun, so if we assume the same happens here for the aporkalypse, the constant blocking the moon from the sun causes the moon to lose its powers somehow? There's a lot of ideas to come up with here.

[ArubaroBeefalo]

1 hour ago, Hornete said:

An idea/theory that I really like is that the Moon loses all it's power during the Aporkalypse and that causes nightmare magic to go crazy in Hamlet, the aporkalypse is a lunar eclipse, in real life a lunar eclipse happens when the Earth blocks the moon from the sun, so if we assume the same happens here for the aporkalypse, the constant blocking the moon from the sun causes the moon to lose its powers somehow? There's a lot of ideas to come up with here.

oh that is a good one and explains why is red

[Mooagain]

On 6/12/2021 at 1:38 PM, Hornete said:

An idea/theory that I really like is that the Moon loses all it's power during the Aporkalypse and that causes nightmare magic to go crazy in Hamlet, the aporkalypse is a lunar eclipse, in real life a lunar eclipse happens when the Earth blocks the moon from the sun, so if we assume the same happens here for the aporkalypse, the constant blocking the moon from the sun causes the moon to lose its powers somehow? There's a lot of ideas to come up with here.

Based on the Hamlet trailer, it's a solar eclipse and lunar eclipse at the same time. The sun and moon are both in the sky together, and some third celestial body is positioned between them stopping the sunlight from reaching the moon. Perhaps this third space rock is another entity like Alter?

[ArubaroBeefalo]

45 minutes ago, Mooagain said:

Based on the Hamlet trailer, it's a solar eclipse and lunar eclipse at the same time. The sun and moon are both in the sky together, and some third celestial body is positioned between them stopping the sunlight from reaching the moon. Perhaps this third space rock is another entity like Alter?

That is really weird. 

I just watched the trailer and promo pics and seems that it is a solar eclipse

Spoiler

but if we see the calendar we can see that is a moon eclipse

Spoiler

So i guess that klei just went random as usual and there is anything solid about it

[Hornete]

1 hour ago, Mooagain said:

Based on the Hamlet trailer, it's a solar eclipse and lunar eclipse at the same time. The sun and moon are both in the sky together, and some third celestial body is positioned between them stopping the sunlight from reaching the moon. Perhaps this third space rock is another entity like Alter?

Oh wow! Somehow I didn't even notice the moon was blocking the sun too. a double eclipse with lunar and solar has some interesting implications

[Mooagain]

 

5 hours ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

but if we see the calendar we can see that is a moon eclipse

 

The way I see it, the cone is the constant, with the crescent being the moon, the sun being itself, and the ball being the thing in front of the sun (possibly the shadow eye from the gateway or the location of the nightmare throne).