[testing] New solar module is OP for grounded power generation

[n_t_p]

We gonna see a lot of these if this don't get fixed lol

1.2 kv. And yeah you can still put all your normal solar panels down below the solar tree.

[pether]

Wasn't it that the engines produced power for the rockets? Is that now removed and require solar panels?

[Unfawkable]

35 minutes ago, pether said:

Wasn't it that the engines produced power for the rockets? Is that now removed and require solar panels?

Not removed, it's just an addition if you need more power. I can see more of the engines getting power production removed due to this module though.

[MiniDeathStar]

On 4/14/2021 at 2:35 PM, Unfawkable said:

Not removed, it's just an addition if you need more power. I can see more of the engines getting power production removed due to this module though.

No. Nonononono. The engines' power values are just fine as they are now.

The real issue here is exploiting space technology for use on ground. We have a similar problem with ground technology used in space, where people stuff the spacefarer module full of storage bins instead of using cargo bays.

I really like the battery module because it lets seed ships provide power for fledgling colonies while the proper infrastructure is being built. It can also power onboard equipment like the orbital lab while the rocket is, well, in orbit and not generating power.

But of course the battery module is currently being abused as a heatless power sink for ground colonies, which is clearly not the intention, and of course it's overpowered for that. However, nerfing the module also nerfs its intended uses and makes it useless for everything. Removing the module's ability to power ground equipment also makes it useless for powering new colonies. Any compromise solutions I come up with in my head, like making the battery work like cargo bays (first only load, then only unload), generally turn into unnecessary hassle.

So really all I can say is, "just don't use exploits"? It's a single player game and you can cheat however you like. But your using of exploits shouldn't turn into a punishment for everyone else who doesn't like exploiting game mechanics.

Side note: I'm working on a mod that bans storage bins inside rockets and replaces them with a new rocket-only bin that only fits 500 kg, for stuff like storing plastic for space research. I'm not a great artist so if anyone wishes to help with the art, please do!

[sakura_sk]

An easy solution to "overpowered" rocket modules is a limit 1 per rocket.

[Coolthulhu]

For solar panels, they could just not work on the ground. Or have only the topmost one work. In space, the rocket has light from all directions, on the ground only from above and maybe a bit to the side.

For batteries, they have to be nerfed. Charge efficiency below 100% sounds like the best way to do it: in space, you'll probably have overproduction from engine and solars, but on the ground you can easily regulate it, so it hurts ground more than space.

Cargo bays are harder, because even the 20t from one bin is a lot. I'd say that total weight of spacefarer module should influence its burden on the rocket. Say, every 10t increases it by 1. This way you can still use the bins, especially for low-tech rockets, but if you want to transport a lot, you need the bay.

On 4/16/2021 at 11:26 AM, MiniDeathStar said:

So really all I can say is, "just don't use exploits"? It's a single player game and you can cheat however you like. But your using of exploits shouldn't turn into a punishment for everyone else who doesn't like exploiting game mechanics.

Couldn't disagree harder. What you're saying is "it's not a problem FOR ME, so don't even slightly nerf it because it will cause inconvenience FOR ME".

The game is not balanced properly. Calling this flaw in design "exploit" does less than nothing to help here.

[Electroely]

56 minutes ago, Coolthulhu said:

Couldn't disagree harder. What you're saying is "it's not a problem FOR ME, so don't even slightly nerf it because it will cause inconvenience FOR ME".

The game is not balanced properly. Calling this flaw in design "exploit" does less than nothing to help here.

To me it seems like you have to go far out of your way to do something like this. It doesn't really hurt players who just... don't use it, so I don't see the big issue.

I wouldn't be opposed to mechanics changes to make rocket technologies only benefit rockets (such as making rocket batteries & solar panels input-only), though it seems to only affect a miniscule part of the game so I don't think it's a priority.

[ZombieDupe]

Might be another reason to weigh this option as a rocket system instead. Then there could be less of these weird exploits.

 

[n_t_p]

On 4/16/2021 at 2:26 AM, MiniDeathStar said:

So really all I can say is, "just don't use exploits"? It's a single player game and you can cheat however you like. But your using of exploits shouldn't turn into a punishment for everyone else who doesn't like exploiting game mechanics.

This is obvious enough that players can reasonably be expected to discover and use this in a playthrough without any spoilers or references to community builds. As soon as someone sees on the daily report that rocket solar is listed right alongside their other generators, or that the rocket batteries drain when connected to the base as needed the eventual result of that is going to be scaling up.

It's not a problem that there's an exploit, it's a problem how obvious and inevitable that exploit is. There's no way to accidentally end up with infinite plumbed liquid storage, or free power from tepidizer toggling, etc etc etc. Even if you wanted to do things like that you couldn't without full knowledge that they are in fact exploits, because you'd have to look them up. But this is just a building that you build, that you can build as many as you want, and gives free stuff.

A new player or one disconnected from the community that discovered the exploit can reasonably be expected to discover and utilize this on their own without knowing it's an exploit. This might seem unlikely to you, but I have outlined at least two sequence of normal gameplay events that could lead to it's discovery, and considering some of the playerbase might be culturally isolated due to cultural and linguistic barriers what is considered an exploit is relative. 

If that still doesn't seem like an issue to you, imagine being in the place of a player who works on their base entirely with unique builds personal to them, developed entirely without spoilers or reference, which they take pride in and then eventually, perhaps after years, deciding to share the base with the broader community... Only to be called a cheater.

[MiniDeathStar]

@n_t_p I mean, I think it's excessively obvious that abusing a rocket platform as a battery bank is clearly not an intended use of rocket platforms. There's no reason to get defensive when people rightfully point it out. And again, I think it's fine if other people prefer to abuse game mechanics like this, what I don't think is fine is making abusable modules obsolete as a "fix" only because of that userbase who won't play fair. *shrug*

[n_t_p]

3 minutes ago, MiniDeathStar said:

@n_t_p I mean, I think it's excessively obvious that abusing a rocket platform as a battery bank is clearly not an intended use of rocket platforms.

Again, this perspective is relative. You have the context of what is/isn't intended in the game, how the game is "supposed" to work, etc. Without that context it is not so clear.

I didn't think corner access for fetching food and debris was an exploit, and just today update 463187 devs say that it is and fixed it. That's literally what it takes sometimes because the only official thing that we have to go on for what is or is not an exploit is what the devs decide. Everything else is just speculation.

[Magheat2009]

The holy don't like it don't use it argument. It has no end, no level of absurdity it bows to. 

On 4/16/2021 at 2:56 PM, MiniDeathStar said:

I'm working on a mod that bans storage bins inside rockets and replaces them with a new rocket-only bin that only fits 500 kg

Hold up. Why work on a mod, and invite others to waste their time on it, when you know, you and others could 'just set the bin limit to 500kg'? 

[hipifreq]

Seems like an easy thing to do would be to have the rock solar panel block sunlight while on the ground. That way, only the upper panel will operate on the ground but all of them could work while in flight.