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[Game Update] - 443461


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17 hours ago, Ipsquiggle said:

Increased sugar engine max modules (4->5). Decreased sugar engine power/speed -40%

That is great, but the sugar engine still consumes 250kg sugar per tile, which makes it both prohibitively expensive and utterly useless, considering it can only hold 300kg fuel. It just means that now we can launch 5 modules on a single tile trip instead of 4. 

Edited by MiniDeathStar
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9 hours ago, Wickedsnowball said:

I personally love the fact that it's a temporary measure that you need to deal with until you get to exosuits.

Suits would be still superior to masks  as they provide better protection, not only the oxygen. Also, it is easier to provide oxygen to them as oxygen masks need to suck it from around them making it difficult to work in CO2 pits. Also, with current good change, dupes can't work all cycle in masks. So there is no need to stick with masks all the time if you have access to suits. There is no need to make masks even worse by adding constant upkeep cost. In my last game I run out of metal ores without even using masks or slug ranches and making me pay enormous quantities of metal ore for masks is big red light for me.

You can also look at it from another angle - new players will not be familiar with nessesity of amtosuits and they can struggle with early game without rushing to them. If they used masks all this time, it will be disaster for their resource stocks...

Don't get me wrong, I like the idea of masks, I like they are early game suit counterpart, I aggree they should be worse than the suits and players should aim to replace one with another. But the enourmous upkeep is really too much for me, making me think that holding breath is much more better stepping stone...

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2 hours ago, pether said:

Don't get me wrong, I like the idea of masks, I like they are early game suit counterpart, I aggree they should be worse than the suits and players should aim to replace one with another. But the enourmous upkeep is really too much for me, making me think that holding breath is much more better stepping stone...

Again, going to respectfully disagree, it's not an enormous upkeep for the average player. It never even got to a point where i could notice which metal i was even allowing use. I set one to iron ore because i had an autosweeper and 2 rust deoxidizers right beside it so that one was self sufficient as long as i had rust and salt. But the one in my main base that did have iron to deal with, i watched my metals and they never got low, across 300 cycles, to the point where i started shipping atmosuits between planets. I would check on my stores and what it's set to but apparently my save file is no longer valid as it crashes instantly on load. But still, it honestly love the masks using material, i hate that they just get left on the ground.

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idk but 15kg of metal seems like a lot for a finite resource but you tend to have about 150t metal on the asteroid.  but, propane tank for grill use here is 17lbs/7.8kg and holds 9kg of propane/gas, that is just the tank though and it's reusable.  the 15kg per use but without a source of renewable metal ore now that meteors aren't in, yet, and no space missions bring back ore makes them undesirable or emergency use imo.  it is good to know it's 1 per 3 dupes for in case of a crisis like oxygen production got messed up or co2 explosion, it's also nice that they can be disabled by automation.  i would use it if that 15kg blocked iritations and sopping wet gladly though

on a more annoying note, can we get better rockets yet?  sugar rockets suck as that 300kg of sucrose can feed a glum grubgrub for 50cycles giving me 50% growth on 7 plants.  a 10kg/s oil to 6.7kg/s nat gas sour boiler would give 2t /cycle sulfur endgame.  that's 1t sucrose, 3.33 rockets a cycle.  that 1t sucrose could make theoretically 34125kcal from grubfruit and grubgrubs (not cooking preserves) per cycle.  the co2 from the nat gas generators would give 1t for 10 rockets for farther range.  and thats before adding in an oxidizer, at 300kg oxylite (requires gold or pufts) or 900kg fertilizer, and for what?  1 extra module so i can send an extra 500kg or rover?  i cant imagine a logical use case to use sucrose for rocketry ingame unless you rush the beeta planetoid.  it's like the solid fuel thruster, only newbs will use it outside the niche spot it covers

Edited by zach123b
typos/grammar
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18 hours ago, Ipsquiggle said:
  • Increased sugar engine max modules (4->5). Decreased sugar engine power/speed -40%
  • Decreased CO2 engine max modules (4->3). Decreased CO2 engine fuel capacity (150kg->100kg) reducing range (6->4 tiles)

 

What is the intended role of the rockets here?

Shouldn't the CO2 rocket be a simpler version of the steam rocket that only goes to the nearest planetoid? Whereas for the next one after that you need the sugar engine. The way it currently is seems backwards

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8 hours ago, MiniDeathStar said:

That is great, but the sugar engine still consumes 250kg sugar per tile, which makes it both prohibitively expensive and utterly useless, considering it can only hold 300kg fuel. It just means that now we can launch 5 modules on a single tile trip instead of 4. 

If you can't make a round trip to the one tile away planet with the sugar rocket anymore, I am not sure that rocket is viable.  Basically, they are saying they want you to cheat and carry the sugar in the capsule, but why not let it go in the engine like it is supposed to.

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12 hours ago, Rehpic said:

I started a new game with this update. I've dug out much of the starter biome and only found one bog bucket seed. Previous start I found around 10. Seems like a problem for food production.  Anyone else seeing this?

Yes I made a post a while ago about the swamp being unbalanced for hard mode and this was my main criticism. There just aren't enough bog seeds as a basic food source compared to what we see with the mealwood seeds in other biome starts. You can get by on normal difficulty with other foraging until you breed enough seeds, but on hard mode its not possible to forage through it and you must resort to mush bars for quite some time. I don't feel this is balanced considering what we see in the other biomes (some of which are meant to be very hard but in which I rarely have to use mush bars).

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2 hours ago, Satyrical364 said:

Yes I made a post a while ago about the swamp being unbalanced for hard mode and this was my main criticism. There just aren't enough bog seeds as a basic food source compared to what we see with the mealwood seeds in other biome starts. You can get by on normal difficulty with other foraging until you breed enough seeds, but on hard mode its not possible to forage through it and you must resort to mush bars for quite some time. I don't feel this is balanced considering what we see in the other biomes (some of which are meant to be very hard but in which I rarely have to use mush bars).

and we discussed it in the other thread.  You can't balance a map for both normal and hard (the way they do map gens).  It is balanced for normal and hard will vary depending on the type of map and the random factors on top of that (hard ardio being different than hard oasis and several oasis being more or less hard)

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33 minutes ago, chemie said:

and we discussed it in the other thread.  You can't balance a map for both normal and hard (the way they do map gens).  It is balanced for normal and hard will vary depending on the type of map and the random factors on top of that (hard ardio being different than hard oasis and several oasis being more or less hard)

I disagree. You can easily correct balance for both normal and hard; here is my reasoning: There are plenty of seeds already for normal mode, so adding more seeds to world gen will not really change the balance of normal difficulty.

If you add more seeds it will just bring the balance of hard more in line with the other biomes (which have plenty of seeds for you). Then you have basically the same situation in normal difficulty, but a more reasonable amount of seeds in hard. 

I believe that increase in difficulty should require different decision making, and not grinding. To take an example from a different game genre, there are RPGs where the increase in difficulty is just a grind (enemies have way more HP, so the fighting just takes longer as you whack away at them), while others give you an increase in difficulty that requires a different approach to gameplay instead of just grinding the gameplay loop.

My experience with hard mode on the other biomes has been the latter; it isn't really a grind, you just have to approach gameplay differently. You must manage your labor more carefully because you need 2x food, you must manage dupe paths and recreation more carefully because of stress, etc. this leads to different base builds and priorities, but not a huge increase to grinding core gameplay loops.

Having to stay in "maintenance mode" cranking out mush bars while you wait for seeds to randomly spawn from bog bucket harvests before you can tackle the rest of the game is an example of the bad kind of difficulty increase that just creates grind with no need for creative problem solving. When you might as well just put the game on super speed and walk away for 30-60 minutes and come back to see if there are enough seeds yet, the game is not doing its job. The game should be engaging.

I hope this makes my point. Even if you disagree, you have to be able to see what I'm talking about and why the devs might want to change this. I have been playing games a long time and really hold to this ideal.

Edited by Satyrical364
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40 minutes ago, Satyrical364 said:

I disagree. You can easily correct balance for both normal and hard; here is my reasoning: There are plenty of seeds already for normal mode, so adding more seeds to world gen will not really change the balance of normal difficulty.

If you add more seeds it will just bring the balance of hard more in line with the other biomes (which have plenty of seeds for you). Then you have basically the same situation in normal difficulty, but a more reasonable amount of seeds in hard. 

I believe that increase in difficulty should require different decision making, and not grinding. To take an example from a different game genre, there are RPGs where the increase in difficulty is just a grind (enemies have way more HP, so the fighting just takes longer as you whack away at them), while others give you an increase in difficulty that requires a different approach to gameplay instead of just grinding the gameplay loop.

My experience with hard mode on the other biomes has been the latter; it isn't really a grind, you just have to approach gameplay differently. You must manage your labor more carefully because you need 2x food, you must manage dupe paths and recreation more carefully because of stress, etc. this leads to different base builds and priorities, but not a huge increase to grinding core gameplay loops.

Having to stay in "maintenance mode" cranking out mush bars while you wait for seeds to randomly spawn from bog bucket harvests before you can tackle the rest of the game is an example of the bad kind of difficulty increase that just creates grind with no need for creative problem solving. When you might as well just put the game on super speed and walk away for 30-60 minutes and come back to see if there are enough seeds yet, the game is not doing its job. The game should be engaging.

I hope this makes my point. Even if you disagree, you have to be able to see what I'm talking about and why the devs might want to change this. I have been playing games a long time and really hold to this ideal.

The problem is that "hard" is not hard.  It is "slower start".  The game does not really provide a significantly different game play on the difficulty settings because 

1. food: fewer dupes or much bars (which apparently is what you are trying to affect.  Note, if you stick to three dupes I think you will be fine for food on swamp....but you will have to play slower....not harder).

2. stress - non issue

3. disease - non issue

So I think you are going after the wrong things here.  "Hard" is not difficult and once you realize that, then the world gen really is meaningless.

Edited by chemie
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54 minutes ago, chemie said:

Note, if you stick to three dupes I think you will be fine for food on swamp....but you will have to play slower....not harder).

2. stress - non issue

Have you tried playing on hard in the swamp? Because this is just incorrect. Your "I think" seems to suggest you haven't tried it. I always stay with 3 dupes and run out of food before I can get enough crops to feed them. I tried 4 starts on hard and it always went the same way, no matter the strategy.

Your comment on stress being a non-issue also screams that you again haven't tried it.

Stress is absolutely an issue on hard. If your dupes have contact with liquid, even getting wet feet on a regular basis, your stress will steadily climb. If you have to get fully submerged, that's a large amount of stress added and it only goes down by a few percent per cycle (only due to social interaction with other dupes and while sleeping). This adds to the difficulty of the swamp by quite a bit since there is so much liquid. You have to snake around taking highly inefficient paths to gather seeds, or otherwise deal with a lot of stress reactions.

Popped ear drums are also a big deal on forest start because oxyferns over pressurize and can be equally as disastrous as getting wet.

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8 hours ago, Satyrical364 said:

Yes I made a post a while ago about the swamp being unbalanced for hard mode and this was my main criticism. There just aren't enough bog seeds as a basic food source compared to what we see with the mealwood seeds in other biome starts. You can get by on normal difficulty with other foraging until you breed enough seeds, but on hard mode its not possible to forage through it and you must resort to mush bars for quite some time. I don't feel this is balanced considering what we see in the other biomes (some of which are meant to be very hard but in which I rarely have to use mush bars).

Except my game wasn't started on hard mode. It was started on default normal settings, just like my previous game.

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Hard food seems pretty reasonable if you stick to 3 dupes.  I'm on cycle 37 with 34300 kcalories and haven't used any of the calories from the second world so I've got a backup of nosh beans I can raid (also 20000 kcal in frozen sleet wheet).  No use of mush bars.  

Just thought I'd add a data point.

Loving the DLC Alpha.  Great work Klei.  :)

 

Edited by hegemontree
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13 hours ago, Satyrical364 said:

Have you tried playing on hard in the swamp? Because this is just incorrect. Your "I think" seems to suggest you haven't tried it. I always stay with 3 dupes and run out of food before I can get enough crops to feed them. I tried 4 starts on hard and it always went the same way, no matter the strategy.

Your comment on stress being a non-issue also screams that you again haven't tried it.

Stress is absolutely an issue on hard. If your dupes have contact with liquid, even getting wet feet on a regular basis, your stress will steadily climb. If you have to get fully submerged, that's a large amount of stress added and it only goes down by a few percent per cycle (only due to social interaction with other dupes and while sleeping). This adds to the difficulty of the swamp by quite a bit since there is so much liquid. You have to snake around taking highly inefficient paths to gather seeds, or otherwise deal with a lot of stress reactions.

Popped ear drums are also a big deal on forest start because oxyferns over pressurize and can be equally as disastrous as getting wet.

Mop the floor.  Honestly, you seem to want to play hard but have an easy time.  You suggest that map gen adds more food to swamp when playing hard, which would not be hard.  All things you list are meant to be hard.  Maybe you should play moderate on the maps you feel are "not balanced" on hard settings?

I tried the 100k map on hard and had to switch because liquid CO2 on the floor was stressing dupes out.  I did not feel the "map wasn't balance for hard".  Difficulty should vary by map type.

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12 hours ago, hegemontree said:

Hard food seems pretty reasonable if you stick to 3 dupes.  I'm on cycle 37 with 34300 kcalories and haven't used any of the calories from the second world so I've got a backup of nosh beans I can raid (also 20000 kcal in frozen sleet wheet).  No use of mush bars.  

Just thought I'd add a data point.

Loving the DLC Alpha.  Great work Klei.  :)

 

Would you mind sharing your strategy on my thread about hard food balance? I don't want to clutter things up here too much but I'm interested in hearing more. I will be trying another hard run probably after released on 12/8

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Game Update - 443461 Portugueses Translation

[Atualização 443461]

 

Olá todos, vocês notaram que já é Dezembro? Você viu as notícias? Oh, e aqui esta mais alguns ajustes!

 

Colocamos uma nova Base de Dados para os ícones dos biomas

Arrumamos o problema da animação de ativação do coduite receptor de teletransporte

Arrumamos outro problema de densidade na geração de mundos no bioma de magma

Na tela de seleção de Novo Jogo o conjunto de prováveis asteroides mostram os gráficos corretos

Consertado o problema que permitia a construção de múltiplos “portapods” e estações de controle de foguete

Consertado o problema que os Plug Slugs iriam dormir pelo primeiro dia inteiro, no carregamento de “autosaves” antigos

Duplicantes precisam respirar significativamente mais oxigênio poluído antes que eles adquiram efeito de status pulmão nojento (yucky lungs)

Atualizada a tradução para o Russo, Coreano e Chinês

Redução na capacidade da mascara de oxigênio de 75kg (125% por ciclo) para 20kg (33% por ciclo)

Concertamos o “tamanho” das janelas da Gravitas

Arrumamos o erro onde os Plug Slugs continuariam a gerar energia sem fio, se eles fossem chamados para serem tratados durante a noite.

Arrumamos o erro  que permitiria que traços exclusivos de Duplicantes algumas vezes fossem rolados juntos de qualquer maneira

Traço excluido adicionado à alguns traços de Duplicantes que estava faltando

Aumentado o número máximo de módulos para o motor de açúcar. (4 -> 5). Diminuído a força e velocidade do motor de açúcar -40%

Reduzido o número máximo de módulos para o motor de gás carbônico (CO2) (4->3). Reduzida a capacidade do motor de gás carbônico. (150kg -> 100kg), reduzido a distância (6 ->4 tiles). Aumentado a potência e velocidade do motor de gás carbônico +20%.

O mundo “warp” foi movido um hexágono mais perto do planetoide inicial

Adicionadas melhores ferramentas no painel de informação de Foguetes para o cálculo de distância e velocidade

Não é mais possível adicionar módulos de foguetes acima da capacidade máxima do motor. (Saves existentes podem ter mais módulos do que o motor suporta, no entanto não podem ser lançados).

Tentativa de arrumar o problema de renderização de linhas no mapa estelar e na tela de pesquisa.

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