ONI food plants problem

[MinhPham]

I won't discuss about ranching stuffs here since ranching is bad for game performance. I doubt Klei has it fixed now, since they reduced the map size to make up for the simultaneously asteroids.

So ... i took a little time in sandbox to find out how the new food works, turned out their production speed aren't better than the "base" food, except for the sulfur thing. I was really hope that Klei get over the 400kcal/cycle formula, but they didn't.

First the food problem is gas range problem : pepper -> phosphorite -> dreckos, and ranching is bad. How about a machine that make phosphorite ?

The second food problem is the crop tending -> phosphorite -> dreckos, and .............

Now we talk about the new food plants.

Bog Bucket is similar to Bristle Blossom but take polluted water at DOUBLE amount and provide almost the same calories as Bristle Blossom. Sure it doesn't need light but i would stay away from it.

Grub Fruit / Spindly Grub Fruit confused me at first, they both take sulfur as fertilization. The spindly one is similar to mealwool in kcal/cycle while the grub fruit is a little bit better, but still way below 400kcal/cycle. I could be wrong but by definition and in renewable way sulfur is a by product of sour gas condenser, which is late game stuffs. I wouldn't be bitching about food stuffs here if the plan just take 100kg or 200kg of sulfur per cycle and give us 2000-4000 kcal per cycle instead. It's late game stuffs dude ...

Now we talk about the old food plants.

Sleet wheat is the only food that reached 400kcal/cycle production, but it require dirt, and you need arbor tree for pDirt, and you need compost labor for dirt. And it's a shame that you can make rockets, but you can't make a compost machine.

Bristle Blossom is the next best food since it only consume water, BUT you need ranching to upgrade it's quality.

Mushroom seems to have the least material requirement, BUT you will need 1 puft for every 11 duskcap. A machine to make slime from PO2 would be appreciate, we DO have mod for that but it would be better to have it from Klei. AND you need ranching to get the mushroom warp.

Nosh Sprout seems to be a good plant because it consumes Ethanol at the same rate as Sleet Wheat and Bristle Blossom consume water, and we can convert pWater into Ethanol with the multiply of 2.4 with Arbor Tree. BUT it will require 1 Arbor Tree for every 8 Nosh Sprout. Due to their size plus the Distillers the Arbor Tree block always bigger than the Nosh Sprout block. I was really exciting about Nosh Sprout until i get it to a real game, Microbe Musher water supply is out of control when you scale this food up, since it doesn't have water intake.

[lee1026]

Have you ever actually managed to consume all of the phosphorite on any map?

 

Mapgen is quite generous with phosphorite, and the things that consume it don't use much, if any.

[MinhPham]

44 minutes ago, lee1026 said:

Have you ever actually managed to consume all of the phosphorite on any map?

 

Mapgen is quite generous with phosphorite, and the things that consume it don't use much, if any.

Took a couple hundreds cycles, but eventually it will run out, might run out even faster if you utilize the fertilizer synthesizer, and scale the pepper plants up to 100 dupes.

My point is, it isn't renewable without drecko ranching, and critter ranching is bad because it runs on single thread and slow down your game performance by a lot. 1000 plants won't effect your game performance much but 1000 critters ? you better start over.

[Dragonoflife]

The buff grubfruits get from grubgrubs gives a 50% growth boost. I'd presume the ideal would be to maintain that buff as much as possible, which would up the numbers substantially.

[lee1026]

2 hours ago, MinhPham said:

Took a couple hundreds cycles, but eventually it will run out, might run out even faster if you utilize the fertilizer synthesizer, and scale the pepper plants up to 100 dupes.

My point is, it isn't renewable without drecko ranching, and critter ranching is bad because it runs on single thread and slow down your game performance by a lot. 1000 plants won't effect your game performance much but 1000 critters ? you better start over.

Oh, its going to take a lot more than a few hundred cycles. Stuffed berries use 90kg for 100 dupes. Mapgen spawns 1600T, so you will run out in, oh, 16,000 cycles or so. At 3 minutes per cycle on super fast speed, that is 800 hours of continuous game playing on a single map.

 

 

[MinhPham]

1 hour ago, lee1026 said:

Oh, its going to take a lot more than a few hundred cycles. Stuffed berries use 90kg for 100 dupes. Mapgen spawns 1600T, so you will run out in, oh, 16,000 cycles or so. At 3 minutes per cycle on super fast speed, that is 800 hours of continuous game playing on a single map.

 

 

Some map may have less than 300t of phosphorite. The 1600T you saw on ToolNotIncluded is only 800T, mining effectiveness.

But, my point is eventually it will run out without any renewable source other than drecko.

Feeding 100 dupes with Stuffed berries will cost 90kg/cycle, will increase to 150kg/cycle if fertilized.

Scale this up to 400 dupes and you will need 360kg/cycle or 600kg/cycle if fertilized.

A bit less phosphorite if you feed them pepper bread instead, but then you have to deal with dirt problem.

Not sure the game can handle 400 dupes, may be it can barely run if i disable all errands for extra dupes and lock them in their own room.

[suicide commando]

Sorry, but a couple of drecko's aren't going to kill your PC. especially not when you compare it to those 100 dupes you want to feed. Drecko's are a fine source of phosphorite. The fact you need to ranch in order to get it is not a problem.

 

[Alexandr Block]

23 hours ago, MinhPham said:

Feeding 100 dupes with Stuffed berries will cost 90kg/cycle, will increase to 150kg/cycle if fertilized.

Scale this up to 400 dupes and you will need 360kg/cycle or 600kg/cycle if fertilized.

Why do you need 100, or even 400 duplicants?
 

[MinhPham]

2 hours ago, Alexandr Block said:

Why do you need 100, or even 400 duplicants?
 

Why would you print the 4th dupe ?

2 hours ago, suicide commando said:

Sorry, but a couple of drecko's aren't going to kill your PC. especially not when you compare it to those 100 dupes you want to feed. Drecko's are a fine source of phosphorite. The fact you need to ranch in order to get it is not a problem.

 

Consider CPU power as one kind of game resource, wasting it on ranching is bad.

[suicide commando]

'wasting' cpu on 100 dupes is worse. Really there's nothing wrong with ranching a couple of drecko's. In my last colony before I started alpha testing, I had 4 shinebug reactors built, not the mod building, but the regular setup of a 3x3 transparent cage and 3 solar panels around it. In the 1x1 cage there were about 60-80 shinebugs. There were 4 reactors, so 4 cages, for an average of 280 shine bugs. My PC ran just fine. FPS dropped a little but otherwise things worked like they should. 
 

Sorry, but wanting something other than drecko's to repenish an already de facto infinite resource is just not nescessary. Ranching is NOT bad. Ranching is a great way of obtaining various materials. I personally never use polymer presses because ranching glossy drecko's is far easier and far less hassle than setting up an oil -> petroleum -> Plastic chain with cooling and everything else that it needs.

[MinhPham]

25 minutes ago, suicide commando said:

'wasting' cpu on 100 dupes is worse. Really there's nothing wrong with ranching a couple of drecko's. In my last colony before I started alpha testing, I had 4 shinebug reactors built, not the mod building, but the regular setup of a 3x3 transparent cage and 3 solar panels around it. In the 1x1 cage there were about 60-80 shinebugs. There were 4 reactors, so 4 cages, for an average of 280 shine bugs. My PC ran just fine. FPS dropped a little but otherwise things worked like they should. 
 

Sorry, but wanting something other than drecko's to repenish an already de facto infinite resource is just not nescessary. Ranching is NOT bad. Ranching is a great way of obtaining various materials. I personally never use polymer presses because ranching glossy drecko's is far easier and far less hassle than setting up an oil -> petroleum -> Plastic chain with cooling and everything else that it needs.

Printing dupes is the only thing to do when nothing else to do.

60x80 minibase with 100 dupes on frost burger.

Normal rime with enough food / oxygen for 400 dupes.

I only said it's bad for performance ... ranching isn't bad, the idea of ranching is amazing, but because of the way it was written, it only work in small scale, i had to abandon some colonies because the critter count get out control and took too long to kill off because the game was unplayable at that point.

 

[suicide commando]

100 dupes will produce a lot more lag than 280 shinebugs. Simply because the calculations that need to be done for a dupe are far more complicated than those of critters. I also don't know what you mean with small scale, but as I mentioned, my last colony I had 280 shinebugs, as well as 80 slicksters and 32 hatches. This caused NO issues.

 

[MinhPham]

1 minute ago, suicide commando said:

100 dupes will produce a lot more lag than 280 shinebugs. Simply because the calculations that need to be done for a dupe are far more complicated than those of critters. I also don't know what you mean with small scale, but as I mentioned, my last colony I had 280 shinebugs, as well as 80 slicksters and 32 hatches. This caused NO issues.

 

My plan is to have ~30 worker dupes, the rest will have all errands disabled, and locked up inside their room/base. I still don't think the game can handle but gonna give it a try.

20 minutes ago, suicide commando said:

I also don't know what you mean with small scale, but as I mentioned.

Count how many "dance" the rancher has to perform before a critter response and you should know when you have more critters than the game wanted.

Once the critter count reached a certain number you will see weird behavior, all critters inhale at the same time, all groom station with rancher dancing has a critter response at the same time, pufts, slicksters inhale a lot slower, they are starving because the inhale calories can't make up for the calories loss.

[Alexandr Block]

9 hours ago, MinhPham said:

Why would you print the 4th dupe ?

 

I cannot learn all professions at the same time.
There is not enough morality to master all professions.

[Primalflower]

I think you need to ranch some hatches or sweetles

[Steve8]

9 hours ago, MinhPham said:

My plan is to have ~30 worker dupes, the rest will have all errands disabled, and locked up inside their room/base. I still don't think the game can handle but gonna give it a try

Francis John had 140 dupes actually doing stuff. And it ran on shove voles. It didn't run well, but it mostly worked. You have some strange ideas about game optimization and balance. There is room for improvement, but the game doesn't really need to be designed for having that many dupes.

Agriculture is in a bad place, but it's mostly because ranching is too easy, too exploitable with starvation, and shove voles give too much meat. Barbecue probably gives too much morale for little effort

[suicide commando]

I think BBQ is in an ok spot. Except for the amounts of meat you can get from shove voles. That needs to get reduced by half I think for starters.
 

[MinhPham]

41 minutes ago, Steve8 said:

Francis John had 140 dupes actually doing stuff. And it ran on shove voles. It didn't run well, but it mostly worked. You have some strange ideas about game optimization and balance. There is room for improvement, but the game doesn't really need to be designed for having that many dupes.

Agriculture is in a bad place, but it's mostly because ranching is too easy, too exploitable with starvation, and shove voles give too much meat. Barbecue probably gives too much morale for little effort

 

23 minutes ago, suicide commando said:

I think BBQ is in an ok spot. Except for the amounts of meat you can get from shove voles. That needs to get reduced by half I think for starters.
 

Voles doesn't give enough meat .... each dupe need >1.25 starving voles for BBQ or ~1 starving voles for burger.

And yes it's ok for medium size colony but i have trouble scale this up because game performance reduce exponentially when the voles count goes up.

Here a test where i gained "small" FPS boost after remove ~300 voles.

[Gurgel]

2 hours ago, suicide commando said:

I think BBQ is in an ok spot. Except for the amounts of meat you can get from shove voles. That needs to get reduced by half I think for starters.
 

Question is if that even works now. You need to have Regolith for Voles to work well.

[suicide commando]

Well, voles were added in reponse to the massive amounts of regolith that needed to be removed. No regolith, no voles needed. I would guess later in the DLC process when they add more stuff they will re-implement meteor showers, maybe on the asteroids that are further away, then we will have need of voles again.

 

[Gurgel]

2 hours ago, suicide commando said:

Well, voles were added in reponse to the massive amounts of regolith that needed to be removed. No regolith, no voles needed. I would guess later in the DLC process when they add more stuff they will re-implement meteor showers, maybe on the asteroids that are further away, then we will have need of voles again.

Makes sense to me.

[goboking]

On 11/21/2020 at 10:33 PM, MinhPham said:

Why would you print the 4th dupe ?

Because 4 is more efficient than 3.  But at some point you're going to start to see diminishing returns on adding an extra dupe, and that point is well before you hit the 100 dupe mark.