Lureplants and fossil fragments should be treated as walls

[SolaFide83]

I know this one will ruffle some feathers but I hate cheesing. There's no fun or thrill in killing Ancient Fuelweaver by standing back while a Houndius Shootius keeps shooting at it as it's hopelessly blocked by a Lureplant. I've joined enough servers where I'm looking to do something challenging with the host only to stand idly by and wait for the cheesing to end. If structure-destroying mobs, such as Dearclops, walks through a Lureplant or a Fossil Fragment, it should "break" and be dropped on the ground in a state that it can be picked up. For a Lureplant, it would be the equivalent of attacking it enough times. For a fossil fragment, it would be as if someone hammered it.

[Pootis Bird]

lureplants and fossils being treated like walls?

 

that kinda breaks a lot of automatic farms, u should just do it legit urself if u want to. Also, both fossils and lureplants are relatively difficult to obtain, so there should be some other reward other than leafy meat and summoning a boss. 

[chirsg]

there can be no fun in cheesing for some people, but this is a different game for everyone.

believe it or not, just because the option of a fightless fuelweaver win is available to people, doesn't mean that they won't gather the materials needed to beat him and go in.

People who have played the game for 8000 sometimes want an easy way out in order to do what they love to do in this game which is build.

Fighting is such a small percentage of the game, that it's not a cardinal sin to choose to avoid it.

a point can be argued that routinely fighting fuelweaver every year will start to become a chore rather than an enjoyable and memorable fight. I'm sure every player wants to know whether or not they can beat the final boss and set out to do it.

 

Klei has struck a great balance when it comes to people playing the game however they want to... but when they took out abigail flowers planting normal flowers, it became a kick to the teeth. but i digress, for the most part, the game is at a solid middle ground

[ArubaroBeefalo]

7 hours ago, chirsg said:

there can be no fun in cheesing for some people, but this is a different game for everyone.

believe it or not, just because the option of a fightless fuelweaver win is available to people, doesn't mean that they won't gather the materials needed to beat him and go in.

People who have played the game for 8000 sometimes want an easy way out in order to do what they love to do in this game which is build.

Fighting is such a small percentage of the game, that it's not a cardinal sin to choose to avoid it.

a point can be argued that routinely fighting fuelweaver every year will start to become a chore rather than an enjoyable and memorable fight. I'm sure every player wants to know whether or not they can beat the final boss and set out to do it.

 

Klei has struck a great balance when it comes to people playing the game however they want to... but when they took out abigail flowers planting normal flowers, it became a kick to the teeth. but i digress, for the most part, the game is at a solid middle ground

A lot of people who cheese didnt even try the boss 1 time without cheese (people who dont like to make any effort on anything) but yeah, having options is good for the game and more if people play this for building

[Well-met]

You don't even need to make them like walls. You can very easily have giants break the objects on touch, much like trees. Even a newbie to LUA could do it.

[SolaFide83]

24 minutes ago, Well-met said:

You don't even need to make them like walls. You can very easily have giants break the objects on touch, much like trees. Even a newbie to LUA could do it.

That's what I'm proposing. Trees are like walls in the sense that they can block movement but are destructible by giants. Lureplant and Fossil Fragments would still drop the item that results from it breaking, much like trees drop logs.

2 hours ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

A lot of people who cheese didnt even try the boss 1 time without cheese (people who dont like to make any effort on anything) but yeah, having options is good for the game and more if people play this for building

That's unfortunately the norm from my own experience and that's what's making me not enjoy hopping into public servers. 

[ArubaroBeefalo]

12 minutes ago, SolaFide83 said:

That's what I'm proposing. Trees are like walls in the sense that they can block movement but are destructible by giants. Lureplant and Fossil Fragments would still drop the item that results from it breaking, much like trees drop logs.

That's unfortunately the norm from my own experience and that's what's making me not enjoy hopping into public servers. 

Then play alone or with friends in private. I have 2k hours in dst and i never join into a public

[Well-met]

2 minutes ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

Then play alone or with friends in private. I have 2k hours in dst and i never join into a public

not a suitable request if they do enjoy pubs.

[ArubaroBeefalo]

13 minutes ago, Well-met said:

not a suitable request if they do enjoy pubs.

Then he have to respect the way others play

I dont like cheese tactics, and less with fossils and lureplants+waiting afk but i cant tell how pleople should play

[Well-met]

9 minutes ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

Then he have to respect the way others play

I dont like cheese tactics, and less with fossils and lureplants+waiting afk but i cant tell how pleople should play

correct.

so the next logical step is to ask the developers. Which is this exact thread.

[ArubaroBeefalo]

3 hours ago, Well-met said:

correct.

so the next logical step is to ask the developers. Which is this exact thread.

i dont use them so i prefer that devs work on new stuff than messing with lureplants, iceflingomatics and fossils

 

17 hours ago, Pootis Bird said:

lureplants and fossils being treated like walls?

 

that kinda breaks a lot of automatic farms, u should just do it legit urself if u want to. Also, both fossils and lureplants are relatively difficult to obtain, so there should be some other reward other than leafy meat and summoning a boss. 

well choosing the grindy part is the payback of not wanting to enjoy a fight

 

[Well-met]

6 minutes ago, ArubaroBeefalo said:

i dont use them so i prefer that devs work on new stuff than messing with lureplants, iceflingomatics and fossils

then why post here if you want nothing to do with the suggestion?

You're kind of making this easy.

[Jrramon_GOLD]

I wouldnt care if lureplants and fossils got treated like walls. But if they changed it so statues are treated like walls I would be mad

[Swanky Psammead]

22 hours ago, SolaFide83 said:

I know this one will ruffle some feathers but I hate cheesing. There's no fun or thrill in killing Ancient Fuelweaver by standing back while a Houndius Shootius keeps shooting at it as it's hopelessly blocked by a Lureplant. I've joined enough servers where I'm looking to do something challenging with the host only to stand idly by and wait for the cheesing to end. If structure-destroying mobs, such as Dearclops, walks through a Lureplant or a Fossil Fragment, it should "break" and be dropped on the ground in a state that it can be picked up. For a Lureplant, it would be the equivalent of attacking it enough times. For a fossil fragment, it would be as if someone hammered it.

I will not give my opinion on whether or not it is philosophically valid to patch out these specific cheese strats at this time, but I would like to make some points about your proposed method of patching them.

1) Deerclops is not a true structure-destroying mob. He does passively destroy trees and boulders by walking over them, but he must use an active ability to smash structures. Bearger, Klaus, Fuelweaver, and Toadstool are true structure-destroyers, and they already do pass through fossil walls (as well as statue walls) exactly as you have described here. Deerclops' inability to pass fossil walls is consistent with the existing limitations on his destructive behavior and is probably intended to reflect that Deerclops destroys as an act of deliberate malice or desire, rather than as an act of oblivious trampling on his way to get to something else. (I do agree that it would make sense for him to be able to target planted fossils in the same way that he targets structures, but I do not think it makes sense for him to break them passively by walking)

2) Deerclops can already target and kill Lureplants that block his path, as they are mobs with HP and he is automatically hostile to most entities with HP.

3) Your proposed change to Lureplants will not prevent Fuelweaver cheesing, as the Lureplant's hitbox when placed would still be enough to push him into the atrium fence and trap him, even if the plant is destroyed afterward--similar to how Toadstool can be pushed into compromising positions while frozen/asleep with a single Fossil that is placed down to push him, destroyed by his passive structure-breaking AOE, then placed down again, ad infinitum.

[ArubaroBeefalo]

48 minutes ago, Well-met said:

then why post here if you want nothing to do with the suggestion?

You're kind of making this easy.

ok, i cant say that i dont like this suggestion

at your sevice captain bitter

[Pootis Bird]

ok lemme just try to sum this up

 

if you remove cheesing,

not everyone will like it

[SolaFide83]

1 hour ago, Pootis Bird said:

ok lemme just try to sum this up

 

if you remove cheesing,

not everyone will like it

Anyone who cheeses knows they’re doing something that developers did not intend and always with the knowledge that it won’t last forever.

I don’t like cheesing because it’s the go-to option almost every time a pub I’m in wants to do something challenging. A couple of days ago I was with a Walter that stood in a stone fence while a lure plant blocked Klaus, all the while Walter was shooting his slingshot. Standing around waiting for a challenging mob to die to cheesing isn’t fun. But stuff like this is just rampant and takes away from the joy of the game. If you can’t legitimately kill a tough mob, you don’t deserve it’s drops.

8 hours ago, Jrramon_GOLD said:

I wouldnt care if lureplants and fossils got treated like walls. But if they changed it so statues are treated like walls I would be mad

Then don’t bring giants next to statues. There’s nothing logical about statues being unbreakable. 

[Pootis Bird]

Just accept that cheesing is staying. Fight a boss the proper way if you want, but don't force others to do so as well. Your opinion is your own, and your own only.

[Swanky Psammead]

1 hour ago, SolaFide83 said:

Anyone who cheeses knows they’re doing something that developers did not intend and always with the knowledge that it won’t last forever.

Yeah I'm gonna have to disagree with this. With most cheese, the devs have left it ambiguous whether or not they intended it. With other cheese, they've explicitly stated that they DID intend it (e.g., they deliberately left the gold-baiting cheese in as a way to beat Pig King's wrestling match solo). A lot of cheese strats may indeed survive the full lifetime of the game.

The main argument against cheese strats should not be developer intent in any case, imo; it should be about whether the cheese is ultimately harmful to the experience of the game or not. Kiting was not always a mechanic intended by the devs, but it makes the game much more interesting, and I am glad they chose to embrace it rather than patch it out in favor of an armor/facetanking meta.

I can see cases for and against the specific cheese strats being discussed here, my mind's not made up.

[Pootis Bird]

2 hours ago, SolaFide83 said:

Then don’t bring giants next to statues. There’s nothing logical about statues being unbreakable. 

There's nothing logical about the giants either

[Well-met]

7 hours ago, Swanky Psammead said:

(e.g., they deliberately left the gold-baiting cheese in as a way to beat Pig King's wrestling match solo)

source?

Developers aren't omniscient and do not know every single trick in the game.

or perhaps they do know but prefer spending ressources on other priorities.

I would by far believe any other reason than "they left that in on purpose".

If they do leave exploits in on purpose, man these guys are terrified by their own playerbase.

7 hours ago, Pootis Bird said:

There's nothing logical about the giants either

It comes at no surprise that pro-exploiters would have very poor arguments as such, desperately holding on to their beloved cheese. It's hard to have real discussions with this material.

[ArubaroBeefalo]

7 minutes ago, Well-met said:

source?

Developers aren't omniscient and do not know every single trick in the game.

or perhaps they do know but prefer spending ressources on other priorities.

I would by far believe any other reason than "they left that in on purpose".

If they do leave exploits in on purpose, man these guys are terrified by their own playerbase.

It comes at no surprise that pro-exploiters would have very poor arguments as such, desperately holding on to their beloved cheese. It's hard to have real discussions with this material.

Ice flingomatics are op since RoG

We are talking about the company that let you craft gun powder and old bell

[SolaFide83]

10 hours ago, Swanky Psammead said:

Yeah I'm gonna have to disagree with this. With most cheese, the devs have left it ambiguous whether or not they intended it. With other cheese, they've explicitly stated that they DID intend it (e.g., they deliberately left the gold-baiting cheese in as a way to beat Pig King's wrestling match solo). A lot of cheese strats may indeed survive the full lifetime of the game.

The main argument against cheese strats should not be developer intent in any case, imo; it should be about whether the cheese is ultimately harmful to the experience of the game or not. Kiting was not always a mechanic intended by the devs, but it makes the game much more interesting, and I am glad they chose to embrace it rather than patch it out in favor of an armor/facetanking meta.

I can see cases for and against the specific cheese strats being discussed here, my mind's not made up.

I agree with a lot of what you said, though do stand by the notion that cheeses are always at risk of being removed. I recall that edge detection was changed in a recent update so the ability to kill Fuelweaver by hugging the edge is not there anymore?

People don't like to argue something is harmful when it's about something being taken away from them. They may not see it as harmful but this is a community game with public servers so it can be harmful to others' experience. Just because someone sticks to private servers and/or plays solo, it doesn't mean that that's how everyone else should play to have any sort of challenge. The harm here is the removal of the thrill of killing tough giants. I described the case of killing Klaus above with a Walter. There was another instance where a buddy was doing it legitimately but was barely staying alive. I had to quickly rush to base to create some healing items and rush back to give it to him, granting him enough health to just barely kill him in time. That's the kind of experience that this game should have. Not the sit back and let a lousy Lureplant be too overpowered for the giant to figure out how to get around kind.

For the sake of comparison, cheesing was the reason I quit Destiny way back in the day. Yes, I technically could have found a group of people to do raids legitimately but I'm not the type of person who caries an online social life, much less even be able to find a 5 others who wanted to do a raid without cheesing. Destiny was very much a public game where the constant cheesing took the life out of it. The raids were the pinnacle of the game (if you didn't do PVP) and they simply became a chore. DST is also very much a public game. Yes, there are groups of people who stick together playing on private servers and there are some who play solo. But that doesn't represent an overwhelming majority. Again, I, like many others, don't necessarily carry on a big enough social life online to be able to always get a group of friends to tackle a giant the way I want to.

[Pootis Bird]

honestly the cheesing problem is sort of like tf2's tryhard/friendly debate. No one knows if the devs intended it to exist, but its here, and it'll stay in the stalemate probably forever. Both sides have their own arguments, like about developer intent and all that stuff, but can we just accept that both methods are going to exist and yall should stop arguing about this because someone's gonna be upset whatever the devs do. 

[Swanky Psammead]

On 8/28/2020 at 6:51 AM, Well-met said:

source?

Thursday dev stream that accompanied release of YotPK event.

They demonstrated the PK gold bait cheese in one of their own pub servers, said outright they knew about it before it went live and made the choice to leave it in.

EDIT the full dev stream seems to be gone but someone clipped a relevant part here https://www.twitch.tv/kleientertainment/clip/CheerfulBraveCardSpicyBoy

On 8/28/2020 at 9:00 AM, SolaFide83 said:

I agree with a lot of what you said, though do stand by the notion that cheeses are always at risk of being removed. I recall that edge detection was changed in a recent update so the ability to kill Fuelweaver by hugging the edge is not there anymore?

I think that if you are being that broad, *everything* is always at risk of being changed or removed as long as Klei is actively updating the game, whether it is considered to be cheese or not. No one considered dragonpie farming to be cheesy, but Klei raised the difficulty in obtaining initial dragonfruit seeds when they added more rare RoT crops. No one considered the ability to carry stacks of 40 fish to be cheesy, but Klei removed it in Hook, Line, and Inker. Meanwhile, pillar stunlocking the Ancient Guardian is still here. The vague, informal, intersubjective playerbase consensus of what is and is not cheese is not a very reliable predictor of what features are most likely to change IMHO.

The Fuelweaver snare-cancel, in particular, is a useful example and I'm glad you raised it. I don't believe many people considered hugging the edge to cancel bone snares vs. pre-RoT Fuelweaver to be cheese, because it made sense in-universe (he shouldn't be able to sprout bones out of the void and have them float there unsupported as a continuous barrier), and because it took significant skill to use it to the player's advantage (poor timing could lead to a significant loss of DPS or opportunities to kill Unseen Hands by hugging the edge too early or too late). I am disappointed that it was patched out for the same reason I would have been disappointed if kiting had been patched out; imo, it was an elegant strategy to conserve equipment at the price of needing to learn a more elaborate pattern of attack and retreat within FW's arena.

Strategies usually come to earn a reputation as cheese for one or both of the following reasons: either they contradict the proposed diegetic logic of the game world (e.g., passing out of bounds in the caves and abyss walking) or they allow otherwise-challenging tasks to be accomplished trivially (e.g., Mighty Wolfgang armed with Spicy Chaud-Froid and blow darts, fighting any raid boss). But both of these reasons require subjective judgments from individual players about how the Constant's logic "should" work (accounting for the fact that absurd cartoon physics are part and parcel of its in-universe logic already), and about what degree of ease counts as "trivial". Ultimately, all strategies with a high probability of success are going to fall somewhere within a continuum of cheese by someone's metric, rather than falling neatly into discrete categories of objective cheese and non-cheese. Hence the hesitation to make authoritative rulings about them in most cases.

Personally I would just change Fuelweaver so that he is still able to perform melee attacks / Mind Control insane players / summon Unseen Hands and Woven Shadows even while stuck, rather than try to prevent players from getting him stuck in the first place. There are a lot of ways to get him stuck besides using Lureplants, and getting rid of most of them would probably require a deep overhaul of the way collision detection currently works for almost all plantables and structures. I agree that getting him stuck shouldn't turn the fight into a completely free win, but I generally prefer to err on the side of rewarding players who care enough about the game to discover these sorts of out-of-the-box solutions, rather than punishing them.