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Reworking Disease System


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So I know the devs are working hard on the upcoming DLC, and I hope that before then they might have a chance to go back over disease. If not that's fine and maybe someone can mod this in or it would be a future update. I know there is a current disease restored mod and while I enjoyed the idea it seemed to have several bugs that just made it not worth it for me at the time. I do feel like a lot of what they did was in the right direction though. Such as making it so washing hands with water infected with food poisoning didn't work, irrigating plants with food poisoning water caused food poisoning to grow on the plants. They also had a UV light treatment building to treat infected water. 
Some of my ideas to add on to that would be:

Making it so they're are more diseases in other biomes, such as the jungle, rust, and ice biomes

I figure there should be one in each of these biomes that presents unique challenges and solutions. Maybe a disease that infects critters and kills them or causes them to become rabid and attack others on sight. A disease that specifically targets plant life, killing it or causing the plant to stop growing until the disease is removed

Making it so rather than having a constant increment on the number of germs just make it so it evolves in stages when conditions are right and given enough time

I feel like the constant increment of germ numbers are just a remnant from the old system that are somewhat unnecessary. I think a stage system would be simpler both for understanding and maybe even reduce lag (not sure on that point though). Perhaps as the disease progresses it evolves new symptoms. For example slime lung at first just causes shortness of breath and coughing, but maybe in later stages it can cause fainting or fever.

Here are the stages I came up with.

Dying - The disease is in an inhospitable environment or something else is attacking it, if in this state for several cycles it will eventually just die off completely
Inert - The disease is neither growing nor dying, such as if a disease was frozen in the ice biome waiting to be reawakened when coming into contact with heat, or like the zombie spores on the plant when the plant is in a vacuum.

Acute - The disease poses little threat, and is just an annoyance, but is in an environment suitable to growth, the disease if caught has a high chance of being overcome by average immune system, low chance of infection

Mild - The disease poses some threat, gaining new symptoms, has a medium chance of being overcome by average immune system, medium chance of infection

Severe - The disease poses a real threat, has more symptoms then before and can kill if untreated. Has a low chance of being overcome by average immune system, high chance of infection
Lethal - Disease poses the maximum threat possible and even if treated still has a chance of killing its host, Has no chance of being overcome by average immune system if untreated, almost definite chance of infection. 

Duplicants that manage to overcome a disease would become immune to that disease if it is the same level or lower then what it was infected with. Also if a duplicant has overcome a lower level of the disease it increases their chances slightly of overcoming a higher level of the same disease, increasing for each level. So if you have a duplicant get infected with the acute version of the disease it and so on it will continually increase their chances of succeeding. By the late game you can either eradicate the diseases by killing them off manually, or make your duplicants immune.
 

Making the doctoring profession and doctoring errands more important

Basic treatment - any duplicant can do this, work time lowered by skill level, increases chance of overcoming infection, chance increased by the administrators profession level.

Vaccine Research - doctors can take samples of the disease to research vaccines to decrease duplicant chance of becoming infected 

Cure Research - doctors can take samples from duplicants that have successfully overcome a disease to research a cure for other duplicants that may get infected in the future. Cures would guarantee recovering from a disease if the cure is the same level or higher.

The idea here is that vaccines would be a simple solution for the early game in preventing duplicants from getting sick while you research a cure which would take significantly longer.

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I like the idea, but ONI can be overwhelming for new players who never played it and have difficulties to sustain oxygen for their base - and I assume this is the reason why slimelung is no longer lethal. Devs wanted to ensure that players enjoy their game and being killed by germs can ruin the enjoyment for some players.

Because of that, lethal diseases should be either configurable in menu (with default off) or be included in new biomes that are present only on more advanced asteroids.

But I agree that in current shape medicine is useless, germs do nothing and I'd like to be forced to care about it a little bit. Maybe next pack or DLC will include something similar to your idea :)

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The system is already complicated and i don`t think we should complicate it more. It has the base to be a good system just needs some work.

Food poisoning does almost nothing atm but vomitting would be too harsh of an effect early game. It already causes dupes to use outhouses more often. Maybe make it cause dupes to require more food so it actually impacts your colony and is dangerous early game but can cure itself.

Slimelung kinda works but it needs to spread easier if not cured. Currently dupes spread a minimal amount of germs when coughing that die off instantly. They loose breath faster and get a minisucle athletics debuff (it should be bigger maybe % based). I think they should use more oxygen overall, like become mouth breathers fro the disease duration. Should remain non lethal as you can encounter it early. There should be special buildings that help clean up the air from germs using chlorine (chlorine should disinfect nearby tiles too).

Hypothermia should be more dangerous and cause dupes to do everything at 50% speed. It shuldn`t cure itself so fast, instead buildings like sauna should speed up the recovery. Maybe there should be a frostbite effect similar to scalding in extreme temperatures.

Heat stroke should also be more dangerous, maybe cause vomitting as it usually happens later in the game. There should be a building helping with this one as well.

The rust biome needs an actual critter in it. I was thinking of a spider critter that could be venomous and needed an antidote to be crafted. Not sure if it should be lethal, maybe cause a paralysis of sorts making dupes incapacitaed for a few cycles if no antidote was applied, dupes would be stuck on the triage cots untill the efect ends.

I don`t think all biomes need germs but there should be a few new ones with intermediate diseases that are lethal and require more preparation to enter.

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The system is already complicated and i don`t think we should complicate it more. It has the base to be a good system just needs some work.

I really don't think the current system is complicated at all. For the most part this system is literally ignored by most players who know what they are doing, for new players they will most likely stumble into it either way and probably be worried at first but then just learn that it doesnt matter at all unless somehow your entire base fills with polluted slimelung oxygen. Which while that would be bad and havent tested it myself, in theory all I can imagine that doing is slowing down your progress a fair amount but for the most part still can be ignored. My idea for changing it from numbers to a state based system was to help simplify the information the game is giving. Currently if an new player looks at a tile and sees germs they might freak out at first because there is germs there and seeing a ridiculous number just adds to the confusion. "Oh theres 100,000,000 slime lung germs in that air pocket". but that number is pretty much meaningless to a new player and an experienced player would just ignore it anyway. 

Quote

I like the idea, but ONI can be overwhelming for new players who never played it and have difficulties to sustain oxygen for their base - and I assume this is the reason why slimelung is no longer lethal. Devs wanted to ensure that players enjoy their game and being killed by germs can ruin the enjoyment for some players.

In my opinion the devs only made the current disease system the way they did because they were focusing on final release and simply decided the current system wasn't worth fixing in its entirety before that time. So they nerfed it down to fix later. My first time playing was either right before or right after space was added, and my first base died to food poisoning basically. I learned from it and then it never happened again. I think germs for the most part are the easiest hurdles for new players to learn from. They have obvious causes and simple solutions (for the most part). Food poisoning is just hand washing, and keeping your germy objects behind sinks. Slimelung teaches you to use airlocks and keeping biomes and your base contained. I don't think this part is overwhelming at all and the suggestions I'm making only adds depth to the mid game where players should have learned enough to start interacting with them in more interesting ways. 
The lethality stuff is only for people who choose to ignore germs completely and allow them to grow for long periods of time, and this can still be nerfed down too. My idea was simply that ignoring germs should be a problem and dealing with them should have simple and interactive solutions. Each germ/disease should be unique and target a unique part of your operations.

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20 hours ago, crbd115 said:

I really don't think the current system is complicated at all. For the most part this system is literally ignored by most players who know what they are doing

It being ignored doesn`t mean it`s not complex. It just needs balance addjusting so it can`t be ignored. Don`t need to fundamentally change it.

The germ numbers don`t have much of a meaning after it was changed. They are more about how long will it take for them to die and how much can spread to your base when open. I`d rather see tiles with infectious amounts of germs highlighted. Maybe also highlight the germed tiles in a different color based on if the germs multiply or die off.

I don`t like the current version of the system but i think it can be fixed with bigger debuffs for infected dupes. Especially for hypothermia/heat stroke those are a joke right now.

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The comments about making it too hard for new players are valid.  However, the depth is what makes the game interesting.

Right now, disease and injuries are just annoyances that go away on their own.  It should be harder than that.

Part of the problem is they went from "really hard" to "really easy".  You used to die from slimelung if you weren't prepared for it or didn't deal with it.  Now, you can just ignore these issues.

In real life, if I get a disease I might stay in bed for days, or only be able to work for 2 hours before I puke and have to go to bed.  They could take a similar approach, you don't die, but you can't work, or your carry capacity and runspeed is diminished by 50%.  (They sort of do this with stat reductions but it is not severe enough.)

Instead of being fatal or non-fatal, diseases could have a death chance each cycle you have it, like 5% or whatever (some riskier than others).  So you can die from disease, but it is not have some 100% death rate like "Ebola".

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On 3/3/2020 at 8:10 PM, Sasza22 said:

it can be fixed with bigger debuffs for infected dupes

What about making debuffs increase over time for being repeatedly affected by the same disease?
For example, curing from the said hypothermia would leave dupe with "Recovering from Hypothermia" status for several cycles. If dupe would be affected with hypothermia again, they would receive more severe debuffs and/or be affected for a longer period of time (and the recovery status after curing would be even longer). Perhaps some more common diseases, like food poisoning, could progress only after multiple cases of "interrupted" recovery. That way, diseases would not be an issue on the spot, but would still force players to take safety measures and invest in medicine at some point.

Also, I find it strange that none of the diseases directly affect morale. Shouldn't negative health conditions negate effects of good foods, nice surroundings and entertainment?

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On 11.03.2020 at 10:40 AM, Meltdown said:

What about making debuffs increase over time for being repeatedly affected by the same disease?

That`s a good idea. I feel like the diseases should have effects after "cured". The recovery is now instant and hypothermia/heat stroke don`t even require medicine nor a doctor. I just wish the clothes worked better since they should prevent temperature related diseases. As for now the sweater protects from both and the vest works the opposite way and is pretty useless. Also a clothing checkpoint is needed for extra control.

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On 1/3/2020 at 5:09 PM, Sanchozz said:

in RimWorld, your dupes pawns can very easily die from malaria, plague, ebola, or simply from infection if they were bitten by a rat. regardless of difficulty settings.

why Klei made ONI so casual.

probably because not all players are tryharders, some just want to enjoy the game.

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Some things to add here.

Hipothermia is now too easy to get. You get in water for a few seconds to build a pump that has to be underwater in their particular universe and you got it, while nothing happens in the air with the same temperature. That condition should be reserved for ice biomes or places below 15 or 10 degrees C. And should be more severe below 0 or -5 C.

Heat stroke is really dangerous in my opinion, because dupes don't mind burning themselves, and if they get too slow climbing a stair with no oxygen they are dead. The same way they run for air when they are suffocating, they should run out of the heat when they are burning. You have to block hot areas with walls right now until you have working atmo suits.

Cold or hot clothes do not work because the temperature difference they give is not very high and they have to be weared at all times. A different conversation would be if the dupes wear them when they feel cold or hot, and unwear them in normal temperature.

The recipes in the medical cabinet, the advanced ones, require ingredients, like the sun bug, that you only get by luck or cheating, making useless the building that depends on it.

The med bay needs a mess table and a toilet, but the injured or sick dupe has to leave the room to get his food. I do not see the point. Someone should get his meal, at least.

Taking germs out of the water and air is very hard. There should be buildings to get this done easily. Some water boiler or bleach stone cleaner in the water for example. In this moment, my toilet water goes to polluted water  consuming plants or the electrolizer.

Some gases could cause irritation, like clorine in strong concentrations.

There could be mental diseases, caused by traumas like passing away because or heat, losing someone or catch a dangerous disease, that temporarily limitates dupes from doing some works or going to certain places. They could be treated by a doctor. Very high stress could have that sort of treatment, if there are no working amenities. Im surprised that going for a strike and refusing to work is not a stress reaction. Could be funny.

Hope this helps.

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15 hours ago, PIRATE D KING said:

probably because not all players are tryharders, some just want to enjoy the game.

I wouldn't call myself a tryhard, but the main disappointment of this game for me so far has been how easy it is, compared to what I thought it would be. A lot of the mechanics can simply be ignored, and I find myself having to set more and more self-imposed rules in order to increase the difficulty to even a moderate amount in order to enjoy myself. I'm not looking for anything crazy harsh; I was originally drawn to this game because of the cute art style! I do think Klei can trust in the intelligence of the game's playerbase a bit more, though. I was expecting to lose colony after colony, and have fun learning something new each time. The only colonies I've lost are from rerolling out of boredom, feeling like I'm achieving things way too easily. I just want to tackle problems and get satisfaction from a job well done after many cycles. When mechanics such as germs are so trivial, that feeling of accomplishment loses its oompf.

I still adore the game, by the way! I'm just saying, it could be a little less forgiving. That way, I could feel a real sense of pride from conquering a harsh world - and again, I don't think that's the sentiment of a "tryhard".

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8 hours ago, Yetinotincluded said:

Heat stroke is really dangerous in my opinion, because dupes don't mind burning themselves, and if they get too slow climbing a stair with no oxygen they are dead.

I think you are mistaking heat stroke with scalding. The latter is dangerous as it makes dupes slow and eventually not able to move. Heat stroke is different. It`s like hypothermia. You get it if a dupe sits in hot water (~50oC) for a while. It`s barely noticable.

The thing is those diseases don`t require any attention. Before you would need the dupes to spend time in the triage cot to get rid of it. All diseases took time to cure. Now it`s all instant or can be just waited out with very little drawbacks. We don`t want it to be a harsh punishment if you forget something. We just want it to have some consequences you need to deal with. As for now it has almost none, except a small loss in productivity.

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4 hours ago, haieku said:

I wouldn't call myself a tryhard, but the main disappointment of this game for me so far has been how easy it is, compared to what I thought it would be. A lot of the mechanics can simply be ignored, and I find myself having to set more and more self-imposed rules in order to increase the difficulty to even a moderate amount in order to enjoy myself. I'm not looking for anything crazy harsh; I was originally drawn to this game because of the cute art style! I do think Klei can trust in the intelligence of the game's playerbase a bit more, though. I was expecting to lose colony after colony, and have fun learning something new each time. The only colonies I've lost are from rerolling out of boredom, feeling like I'm achieving things way too easily. I just want to tackle problems and get satisfaction from a job well done after many cycles. When mechanics such as germs are so trivial, that feeling of accomplishment loses its oompf.

I still adore the game, by the way! I'm just saying, it could be a little less forgiving. That way, I could feel a real sense of pride from conquering a harsh world - and again, I don't think that's the sentiment of a "tryhard".

i respect your opinon, and i am glad you stil enjoy the game, but maybe it isnt exactly what you are looking for? and while saying this i want to clarify that all feedback is welcome and you are entitled to express your feelings and suggestions, i ofc was generalizing a lil bit, there is usually several shades of gamers but for the sake of simplicity the 3 more common are casuals, tryharders and then a middle point between the 2, i consider myself to be in the middle (wich ofc doesnt mean the rest of the player base should be ignored) but i think some people are looking for a challeng kinda thing that is more common in survivals? not entirely sure if the devs developed ONI with that in mind.

i am completely up for a more challenging gameplay, but for me running a race with my shoes's ties tied to eachother is more an inconvenience than a challenge (wich is the impression i have got after reading some suggestions as to how to make the game more difficult)

to finish  allow me to suggest you to take a look at rimworld, i havent played it myself but after having seen few vids of gameplay, i think you might (or not) be intrested in it based on your opinion about the difficulty of the game.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OBS_EfQanzg

 

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On 2/29/2020 at 8:45 PM, crbd115 said:

So I know the devs are working hard on the upcoming DLC, and I hope that before then they might have a chance to go back over disease. If not that's fine and maybe someone can mod this in or it would be a future update. I know there is a current disease restored mod and while I enjoyed the idea it seemed to have several bugs that just made it not worth it for me at the time. I do feel like a lot of what they did was in the right direction though. Such as making it so washing hands with water infected with food poisoning didn't work, irrigating plants with food poisoning water caused food poisoning to grow on the plants. They also had a UV light treatment building to treat infected water. 
Some of my ideas to add on to that would be:

Making it so they're are more diseases in other biomes, such as the jungle, rust, and ice biomes

I figure there should be one in each of these biomes that presents unique challenges and solutions. Maybe a disease that infects critters and kills them or causes them to become rabid and attack others on sight. A disease that specifically targets plant life, killing it or causing the plant to stop growing until the disease is removed

Making it so rather than having a constant increment on the number of germs just make it so it evolves in stages when conditions are right and given enough time

I feel like the constant increment of germ numbers are just a remnant from the old system that are somewhat unnecessary. I think a stage system would be simpler both for understanding and maybe even reduce lag (not sure on that point though). Perhaps as the disease progresses it evolves new symptoms. For example slime lung at first just causes shortness of breath and coughing, but maybe in later stages it can cause fainting or fever.

Here are the stages I came up with.

Dying - The disease is in an inhospitable environment or something else is attacking it, if in this state for several cycles it will eventually just die off completely
Inert - The disease is neither growing nor dying, such as if a disease was frozen in the ice biome waiting to be reawakened when coming into contact with heat, or like the zombie spores on the plant when the plant is in a vacuum.

Acute - The disease poses little threat, and is just an annoyance, but is in an environment suitable to growth, the disease if caught has a high chance of being overcome by average immune system, low chance of infection

Mild - The disease poses some threat, gaining new symptoms, has a medium chance of being overcome by average immune system, medium chance of infection

Severe - The disease poses a real threat, has more symptoms then before and can kill if untreated. Has a low chance of being overcome by average immune system, high chance of infection
Lethal - Disease poses the maximum threat possible and even if treated still has a chance of killing its host, Has no chance of being overcome by average immune system if untreated, almost definite chance of infection. 

Duplicants that manage to overcome a disease would become immune to that disease if it is the same level or lower then what it was infected with. Also if a duplicant has overcome a lower level of the disease it increases their chances slightly of overcoming a higher level of the same disease, increasing for each level. So if you have a duplicant get infected with the acute version of the disease it and so on it will continually increase their chances of succeeding. By the late game you can either eradicate the diseases by killing them off manually, or make your duplicants immune.
 

Making the doctoring profession and doctoring errands more important

Basic treatment - any duplicant can do this, work time lowered by skill level, increases chance of overcoming infection, chance increased by the administrators profession level.

Vaccine Research - doctors can take samples of the disease to research vaccines to decrease duplicant chance of becoming infected 

Cure Research - doctors can take samples from duplicants that have successfully overcome a disease to research a cure for other duplicants that may get infected in the future. Cures would guarantee recovering from a disease if the cure is the same level or higher.

The idea here is that vaccines would be a simple solution for the early game in preventing duplicants from getting sick while you research a cure which would take significantly longer.

I like it but i think is a little too much but, honestly, the disease system must be touch by devs cause right now is totally useless, been playing around some bases to complete achievements, and i just don't care a bit about anything but digging and building, even if for some strange reason dupes get hurt, i don't even care to build a med bed for it, there's no need for it.

 

And for the better part of this issue, we have a "hospital room" layer that we don't even need for any reason, but we don't have a research room or kitchen layer :( 

 

I really hope they eventually change this :) 

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On 15.03.2020 at 4:54 AM, ironjoseve said:

And for the better part of this issue, we have a "hospital room" layer that we don't even need for any reason, but we don't have a research room or kitchen layer

Laboratory room does sound like cool idea)

Especially if it gets mixed with 'hospital functionality': You got a disease, you need to study it to figure out better treatment e t c... Or: if you dupe got ill, you sometimes don't know what it is and need to figure it out in laboratory. But this might a be a bit too much...

On 14.03.2020 at 1:36 PM, Yetinotincluded said:

Some gases could cause irritation, like clorine in strong concentrations.

Would be nice to have more toxic environments, not just hot/cold ones.

On 01.03.2020 at 4:23 PM, pether said:

Devs wanted to ensure that players enjoy their game and being killed by germs can ruin the enjoyment for some players.

I remember playing with Lethal diseases and it wasn't much of an issue, but it did made me more careful (because simply ignoring it was not an option).

If diseases are considered too hard for new players, than more lethal diseases can be moved to later stages - bacteria that actually eats food, space-virus e t c...

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I believe this is the right topic to add my experience:

Last time, I decided to play on highest disease difficulty. Someone even was infected with slimelung, so I was like "cool, now the hospital, balm lily farm and the medicine manufacture". By the time I finished, the slimelung was gone, nothing really happened and my hospital is useless. On hardest difficulty... I did nothing, so did the disease...

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On 3/1/2020 at 7:09 PM, Sanchozz said:

why Klei made ONI so casual.

agreed. dn for who no sweat mode is if there 0 sweat in classic mode such as it is

diseases not working (slimelung killed by solid n liquid, and blocked by gases - lol?) and needs redesign
stress also not viable (when u guys last time use massage table after rooms morale bonuses released?) and needs redesign

make ONI challenging again pls

 

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On 3/1/2020 at 5:23 PM, pether said:

Because of that, lethal diseases should be either configurable in menu (with default off) or be included in new biomes that are present only on more advanced asteroids.

Yeah, I totally agree with you. It chould be in a new asteroid and be included in a biome exclusive to that asteroid, like barren biome in the Badlands.

Maybe a new biome in Verdant asteroid since it appears to be a more biological asteroid according to the description

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I'm not sure diseases even need to really be lethal to be meaningful. Scalding is unlikely to kill a dupe unless you are particularly careless, but it's still something you have to react to and - occasionally - plan around. If Slimelung had the same effect when you wondered into a slimelung infected swamp, AND the disease slowly spread (a few tiles per cycle kind of speed) that would probably be enough.

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4 hours ago, Olleus said:

I'm not sure diseases even need to really be lethal to be meaningful. Scalding is unlikely to kill a dupe unless you are particularly careless, but it's still something you have to react to and - occasionally - plan around. If Slimelung had the same effect when you wondered into a slimelung infected swamp, AND the disease slowly spread (a few tiles per cycle kind of speed) that would probably be enough.

Coughing causing hp damage would work. Each cough would shave off 10 hp so an untreated dupe would eventually get incapacitated.

Also i think slimelung infected dupes could work similar to sparkle streakers. Passing by other dupes would cause exposure to the germs.

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