water gysters and vents tier list?

[Ixenzo]

6 hours ago, Gurgel said:

Steam Vents (no use except driving a turbine?)

You can get two turbines running at max output the entire active cycle without any interaction and then get some water as a freebie. If you count the aquatuner power consumption, you get like 1200W of power for free. And the free water can be made into even more power.

6 hours ago, Gurgel said:

Iron Volcanoes (takes too much to cool them)

It's a source of heat that also gives you metal, which is arguably better than igneous rock. The best one at that. Boil oil or make a turbine setup that will produce power while giving you metal at a desired temperature. What's not to like?

I've never used chlorine vents ever. Waste of a geyser spot. I'd rather have an extra oil reservoir over that, and I've never used those either.

[psusi]

23 hours ago, Gurgel said:

Iron Volcanoes (takes too much to cool them).

How do you figure?  It's really hot but the mass is so small.  I ran the numbers the other day and figured that cooling it with a steam turbine would only produce an average of like 6 watts.  Then again, the mass of metal is so small, is it really worth the bother?  I seem to have an iron and gold volcano on my map and I haven't decided to bother with them yet.  I have plenty of metal anyway.

[caffeinated21]

The metal really adds up... I pretty much only use my metal refinery for steel and tungsten 

[Gurgel]

On 1/5/2020 at 1:45 AM, psusi said:

How do you figure?  It's really hot but the mass is so small.  I ran the numbers the other day and figured that cooling it with a steam turbine would only produce an average of like 6 watts.  Then again, the mass of metal is so small, is it really worth the bother?  I seem to have an iron and gold volcano on my map and I haven't decided to bother with them yet.  I have plenty of metal anyway.

That was compared to gold. Iron has about 3 times the specific heat and hence needs 3 times the cooling. 

[psusi]

8 hours ago, Gurgel said:

That was compared to gold. Iron has about 3 times the specific heat and hence needs 3 times the cooling. 

OK, so 18 watts then

 

[BT_20]

I would say that the metal volcanoes and the diff o2 geysers are pretty much useless on Most maps but to get the small amount of clay or metal can be of use sometimes.

 

The co2 Geyser is completely useless it produces a tiny amount at a inconvenient temp of a resource that is already near impossible to use without spacing it.

[Gurgel]

Well, what we see here clearly is that different people prefer different things and find different geysers useless or too much work to use. That is one of the great things about Oni: A massive diversity of ways to success.

[DarkMaster13]

3 hours ago, Gurgel said:

Well, what we see here clearly is that different people prefer different things and find different geysers useless or too much work to use. That is one of the great things about Oni: A massive diversity of ways to success.

I generally find O2 to be terrible because I always have more than enough oxygen production.  It's super cheep to produce.  Water is usually abundant, so a very large oxidizer setup is desirable since the hydrogen is good for rocketry or net positive energy.  I'll also generally setup at least one deoxidizer network on maps with rust as well for cheep iron, but I'm happy to fully rely on deoxidizers too.

CO2 is terrible because you usually have too much CO2.  Run some coal, natural gas, or especially petroleum generator and you'll quickly produce more than enough CO2 to cover any possible needs.  So much that you have to either skim or vent it.

Really not glowing recommendations, considering the alternatives.

[Ixenzo]

4 hours ago, DarkMaster13 said:

CO2 is terrible because you usually have too much CO2.  Run some coal, natural gas, or especially petroleum generator and you'll quickly produce more than enough CO2 to cover any possible needs.  So much that you have to either skim or vent it.

CO2 vents are great because you don't have to burn lumber/coal/natgas/petro. I get plenty of free power for my needs from turbines and my backbone is hydrogen gens. Building any other generator is creating more things to deal with for no benefit whatsoever. Any CO2 you didn't have to lift a finger for is good CO2.

Tier 1 vents: slush, PW. Tier 2: water geyser, iron, hot steam. Tier 3: CO2, gold/copper, NG, volcano, fissure, hydrogen, hot PO2. Tier waste of a spot: cool steam, salt water, chlorine, cold infected PO2.

As you can see, my priority here is two-fold: convenience and as much heat created as possible. 

 

[psusi]

5 hours ago, Ixenzo said:

CO2 vents are great because you don't have to burn lumber/coal/natgas/petro. I get plenty of free power for my needs from turbines and my backbone is hydrogen gens. Building any other generator is creating more things to deal with for no benefit whatsoever. Any CO2 you didn't have to lift a finger for is good CO2.

I also mainly use hydrogen for power but I still have 4 wild arbor trees running a petro gen 25% of the time to supplement that.  That produces plenty of CO2 for rather little effort.  Also the only reason you want CO2 is for the soda fountain, otherwise it is literally garbage.  And what else are you going to do with your coal?  May as well run one just to get rid of the coal.

5 hours ago, Ixenzo said:

Tier waste of a spot: cool steam, salt water, chlorine, cold infected PO2.

The slush and pwater vents are clearly preferable, and water slightly so ( due to its higher output ), but cool steam is a decent source of water so I wouldn't call it a waste of a spot.  Especially if you don't have any of the former.  Infected PO2 is handy for ranching pufts and producing ceramic.  Not earth shattering, but it's at least useful unlike CO2.  I have yet to get to the point where I actually tap a chlorine vent, but at least in theory you need one to sustain growing waterweed.  I had hope that it would be more useful when they added the gas grass and gassy moos, but since they require sunlight they are kind of useless.

[Ixenzo]

1 hour ago, psusi said:

I still have 4 wild arbor trees running a petro gen 25% of the time to supplement that

I suggest having more hydrogen gens to eliminate the need for any other bothersome power generation options. Hydrogen as a byproduct of water electrolyzing will never run out, and for rockets you could just build more electrolyzers earlier in the game to stockpile more gas - you're barely using water otherwise.

1 hour ago, psusi said:

Also the only reason you want CO2 is for the soda fountain

Never once have I even bothered clicking on that icon in the build menu. CO2 is for slicksters, slicksters give food and petroleum, and petroleum gives PW and more CO2.

1 hour ago, psusi said:

And what else are you going to do with your coal?

Refined carbon for steel. On a map without sandstone biomes starting up early steel production can be inconvenient, so as I habit a put a couple dozen hatches in a wild stable just for that. Besides, coal in caustic biomes is still limited.

1 hour ago, psusi said:

cool steam is a decent source of water so I wouldn't call it a waste of a spot.

Its problem is that it's inconvenient and mediocre in output. The steam is neither hot enough to start a turbine, nor does it cool itself down in an enclosed permanent design, necessitating outsourced cooling. In most cases it will either be a half-assed "just leave as is and collect water" build or a net energy consumer. Hot steam by itself gives like net 1200W continuously during the entire active cycle while providing 95C water with otherwise identical vent settings. With the water geyser providing large amounts of ready to pipe water, cool steam is completely eclipsed. And there are still PW vents that offer much more convenience and usability. Salt water is basically a regular water geyser with its increased emission rate, but you have to jump through hoops to make it drinkable, and the salt it produces is essentially worthless.

1 hour ago, psusi said:

Infected PO2 is handy for ranching pufts and producing ceramic

Average emission for PO2 vents is 70-140 g/s. A single happy tame puft consumes 83.33 g/s. Why is hot po2 better? It's not, but I can stick a turbine on top of it.

[psusi]

1 minute ago, Ixenzo said:

I suggest having more hydrogen gens to eliminate the need for any other bothersome power generation options.. Hydrogen as a byproduct of water electrolyzing will never run out, and for rockets you could just build more electrolyzers earlier in the game to stockpile more gas - you're barely using water otherwise.

But then what would I do with my lumber?

2 minutes ago, Ixenzo said:

Never once have I even bothered clicking on that icon in the build menu. CO2 is for slicksters, slicksters give food and petroleum, and petroleum gives PW and more CO2.

OK, so a CO2 geyser produces 100-200g/s and must be heated before it can be fed to a couple of slicksters to get you ~75 g/s of oil.  That equates to ~56 g/s of water needed to pump an oil well, which is about nothing.  Easier to ranch dense pufts or shove voles for the meat and you can sustain many more dense pufts than a few slicksters that can survive from a CO2 geyser.

9 minutes ago, Ixenzo said:

Refined carbon for ceramics and steel. On a map without sandstone biomes starting up early ceramics production can be inconvenient, so as a habit a put a couple dozen hatches in a wild stable just for that. Besides, coal in caustic biomes is still limited.

I've got like 150 tons of the stuff and don't really need any more steel ( sitting on 20+ tons of that ).  It's not like you need to save every scrap of coal for making steel.

17 minutes ago, Ixenzo said:

Its problem is that it's inconvenient and mediocre in output. The steam is neither hot enough to start a turbine, nor does it cool itself down in an enclosed permanent design, necessitating outsourced cooling. In most cases it will either be a half-assed "just leave as is and collect water" build or a net energy consumer. Hot steam by itself gives like net 1200W continuously during the entire active cycle while providing 95C water with otherwise identical vent settings. With the water geyser providing large amounts of ready to pipe water, cool steam is completely eclipsed. And there are still PW vents that offer much more convenience and usability. Salt water is basically a regular water, but you have to jump through hoops to make it drinkable, and the salt it produces is essentially worthless.

Yes, it is inconvenient, and has less output, which is why I said it is less desirable than the other vents.  I'm used to having them as my only water source though so I don't see them as useless.  On my current map I have a pwater that probably is more than enough water, but I still tapped one of the cool steam vents if for nothing else, to help melt the cold biome and I hate to send cool water from the pwater vent to the oil well.  The hot steam vent's output is half the output of the cool one btw, but I can see the power being quite useful ( never seen one myself ).

23 minutes ago, Ixenzo said:

Average emission for PO2 vents is 70-140 g/s. A single happy tame puft consumes 83.33 g/s. Why is hot po2 better? It's not, but I can stick a turbine on top of it.

It doesn't look like much on paper but it seems to be working fine for me.  I do have two of them on the map but one seems to not produce very much.  The other may be above average.  I just clean in chlorine and dump it into an infinite gas storage.  When I need ceramic I let it bleed out into deoderizers.  When I wanted desnse pufts for oxylite, I ran a full ranch of pufts off of it for quite some time before getting low on pO2 ( long after fully populating the dense puft ranch ), then I just killed a few and stopped grooming for a while while the infinite storage refilled.  Anyway, it is less annoying than filling an outhouse and waiting to build up a dozen or two morbs, and the vents were there anyhow, so I may as well use them.

[caffeinated21]

The way I play the game is BETTER then the way you play the game! 

[Ixenzo]

29 minutes ago, caffeinated21 said:

The way I play the game is BETTER then the way you play the game! 

This joke is older than videogames, yet it's true. The reason we play the game the way we do is because it's objectively the better way. Better by what metric? The amount of fun inflicted. I've seen many people play a game in some other different way than me and it's appalling how bad some of those ways are. How do they even manage to have fun playing like this, what the heck are they thinking? Yet somehow they must be having fun, otherwise they wouldn't be playing in the first place. Well, knowing this doesn't make their way valid for me now, does it?

1 hour ago, psusi said:

But then what would I do with my lumber?

Ignore or chop the trees and delete the debris or play on a map without the forest biome or play on Rime where there's (almost) no living plants. My coal has been sitting mostly untouched in the hatch stable for a couple hundred cycles now.

1 hour ago, psusi said:

OK, so a CO2 geyser produces 100-200g/s and must be heated before it can be fed to a couple of slicksters to get you ~75 g/s of oil. 

It's free CO2 that your dupes didn't have to exhale, 50 to 100 of them per geyser, or 35 to 70 per vent. Imagine the resources needed to sustain and enable useful existence for this kind of population. A ridiculous perspective, isn't it? But technically it's completely true.

The CO2 doesn't need to be heated, it will be plenty hot upon entering the biome, nor would existing slicksters' body temp change much. Unless you keep them in an insulated stable, which I assume would also be the power brick for petroleum gens. Plenty of hot in there. I could go on explaining the CO2 chain, but the bottom line is that CO2 is relatively valuable resource, and getting it for free is always good.

2 hours ago, psusi said:

don't really need any more steel

Well, I do. Though I do think that on maps with sandstone biomes coal is plenty abundant, and on maps without them keeping hatches is worth it only for the convenience of not having to go find untapped caustic biomes, as long as you don't have any steel-hungry megaprojects lined up.

2 hours ago, psusi said:

The hot steam vent's output is half the output of the cool one btw, but I can see the power being quite useful

On my current map I've had the hot vent hooked up for about 200 cycles and I've yet to take any water from it - simply don't have any use for it. Nor did I have to ever sieve PW out of my bathroom/refinery/cooling loop for plants yet (kinda miffed about this tbh, why did I even bother building all of that?). The power is indeed very useful. I run my bases pretty lean on power, at least I think I do, and during the active period of the hot steam vent my backbone has like 5-7% uptime. That's from a single vent. Build and forget free power for 40-80% of the time plus free water that can get even more power.

As for pufts, honestly never even clicked "wrangle" on them in my entire playtime. Well, iirc you need to set traps for them. They look like too much pita.

[psusi]

39 minutes ago, Ixenzo said:

Ignore or chop the trees and delete the debris or play on a map without the forest biome or play on Rime where there's (almost) no living plants. My coal has been sitting mostly untouched in the hatch stable for a couple hundred cycles now.

I had pips plant the trees wild from seeds from the printing pod so I can have a nature reserve and a cheap source of dirt, water, and power.  I suppose you could use other plants for the nature reserve, but why mess up what's working?

41 minutes ago, Ixenzo said:

It's free CO2 that your dupes didn't have to exhale, 50 to 100 of them per geyser, or 35 to 70 per vent. Imagine the resources needed to sustain and enable useful existence for this kind of population. A ridiculous perspective, isn't it? But technically it's completely true.

That's a straw man argument though because you don't 1) need CO2, and 2) rely on dupes to get it.

42 minutes ago, Ixenzo said:

The CO2 doesn't need to be heated, it will be plenty hot upon entering the biome, nor would existing slicksters' body temp change much. Unless you keep them in an insulated stable, which I assume would also be the power brick for petroleum gens. Plenty of hot in there. I could go on explaining the CO2 chain, but the bottom line is that CO2 is relatively valuable resource, and getting it for free is always good.

It's going to need heated eventually or you will cool down the biome.  I've done it by feeding slicksters CO2 coming out of a NG and petroleum generator and that's a lot warmer than the stuff that comes out of the vent.  And weren't you arguing against using a petrol gen?  And like I showed with math, the amount of oil you get for the CO2 from the vent is negligible.  If you've got it, I guess it is better than a sharp stick in the eye, but I'm just saying it is less useful than a PO2 vent that you classed as useless.

I've been feeding my extra CO2 to slicksters lately myself instead of scrubbing it, but it's really just because I like the critters rather than I care about saving a tiny amount of water that I have in abundance pumping more oil.

57 minutes ago, Ixenzo said:

As for pufts, honestly never even clicked "wrangle" on them in my entire playtime. Well, iirc you need to set traps for them. They look like too much pita.

You should try it some time.  I once made the mistake of using algae distillers to get rid of the tons of slime I had and score some water.  Only later did I start to run out of slime for growing mushrooms and turned to morbs and pufts to keep the food going.  The dense pufts were also quite handy saving power and gold to make oxylite.  Squeaky ones can be handy for cleaning up the chlorine in caustic biomes instead of messing about with pumps and filters.  And you can avoid traps by plopping down a critter drop off and set it to auto wrangle.  Or just nab the eggs and move them.

[caffeinated21]

It seems like one’s attitude about CO2 depends on whether you do the oil-reservoir / petrol boiler economy. A single petrol generator can support approximately 2 full stables of slicksters. Your FPS will run out before your CO2 If you’re doing that at scale. Also plenty of PH2O for dirt.
 

On the other hand, If you’re not doing petrol, you may be starving for dirt / PH2O, in which case CO2 is a godsend 

[psusi]

12 minutes ago, caffeinated21 said:

On the other hand, If you’re not doing petrol, you may be starving for dirt / PH2O, in which case CO2 is a godsend 

An arbor tree and a pip will make much more dirt that you can get from a co2 scrubber and do it for free.  4 wild arbor trees feeding an ethanol distillery will give more dirt that you can shake a stick at, and power and CO2 and pwater to boot.

16 minutes ago, caffeinated21 said:

It seems like one’s attitude about CO2 depends on whether you do the oil-reservoir / petrol boiler economy. A single petrol generator can support approximately 2 full stables of slicksters. Your FPS will run out before your CO2 If you’re doing that at scale. Also plenty of PH2O for dirt.

One of these days I'll probably make a petrol boiler just because it seems neat, but as it is, I can't find enough things to consume power to bother with a ( non ethanol ) petrol gen, let alone a bunch that would make me really want a petrol boiler.  I do wish that it didn't need 2 full stables of slicksters to handle one petrol gen though.

[caffeinated21]

7 minutes ago, psusi said:

An arbor tree and a pip will make much more dirt that you can get from a co2 scrubber and do it for free.

 

One of these days I'll probably make a petrol boiler just because it seems neat, but as it is, I can't find enough things to consume power to bother with a ( non ethanol ) petrol gen

Re: Arbor trees, I’m not that into wild-planting ¯\_(ツ)_/¯. I think it’s fair to argue that a carbon scrubber is a lot simpler to setup than a pip+wild planting + ethanol distillery. As you mentioned, power is nearly infinite so who cares about 120w?

 

re: petrol boiling, ultimately it’s about water. On my current map I’m aiming to support 100 dupes, with 100% of my hydrogen going to rockets. Need all the water I can get. 
 

 

[Ixenzo]

16 minutes ago, psusi said:

a nature reserve

Never needed that. My dupes run around with 40 morale without anything special: plastic beds, showers, great hall, gold tiles everywhere in the base and the food is whatever the cook's been cooking. Too much hassle for no benefit.

19 minutes ago, psusi said:

cheap source of dirt, water, and power

Do you really need the first two? Especially if there are forest biomes on the map, easily thousands of tons of dirt, and I only use it on mealwood for plastic dreckos. I should really switch the drecko stable to bristle, there's only advantages to it in my base, and also eliminates the need for dirt completely. Power, again, all hail the turbine on top of hot vents.

25 minutes ago, psusi said:

That's a straw man argument though

Did you miss the "ridiculous perspective" bit? 

27 minutes ago, psusi said:

It's going to need heated eventually or you will cool down the biome

200 g/s CO2 from -50 to 130C takes 30 kdtu/s, which is nothing. The mass of a single biome compared to that means effectively constant temperature for all intents and purposes. Open up the vent and it'll get there.

The point of using a petrol gen in the first place is to acquire PW in large amounts without pw geysers that may or may not be present. I think we can agree that PW is a useful resource, and that a single generator produces more O2 and clay through deodorizes than multiple vents do. And one of those O2 vents could've been a PW geyser, or many other infinitely more useful vents.

41 minutes ago, psusi said:

You should try it some time

What for? I don't need slime as I've never farmed mushrooms, oxylite refinery is very stable and apart from power is essentially free (you only need it for a few launches and creating an entire ranch of morphs just for that is absurd in my eyes). I stopped caring about chlorine a long time ago, the only gas I take effort to actively remove (rather, prevent from escaping) is NG as it actually has some value at the gas range.

Now that I think about it, the only ranch I actually need is the plastic dreckos and the only other ranch I've been using is hatches that I eventually morph into smooth ones, but these days I'm thinking of foregoing them altogether - the savings in refinery power aren't valuable to me, and the heat aspect of refining is moot with the heat dump solution I've been using. And I'd like to get 100% of the metal, please.

[psusi]

19 minutes ago, caffeinated21 said:

re: petrol boiling, ultimately it’s about water. On my current map I’m aiming to support 100 dupes, with 100% of my hydrogen going to rockets. Need all the water I can get. 

Wow that's a lot of dupes.  Wild arbor trees make water

20 minutes ago, Ixenzo said:

Do you really need the first two? Especially if there are forest biomes on the map, easily thousands of tons of dirt, and I only use it on mealwood for plastic dreckos. I should really switch the drecko stable to bristle, there's only advantages to it in my base, and also eliminates the need for dirt completely. Power, again, all hail the turbine on top of hot vents.

Early on I thought I needed the dirt.  Used to be the thing you tend to run out of and die if you haven't yet set up a better food source than mealwood, and one of these days I may try growing frost wheat.  The power was also important before I got the hydrogen vent tamed and even now it means I'm banking more hydrogen for rockets later.

24 minutes ago, Ixenzo said:

The point of using a petrol gen in the first place is to acquire PW in large amounts without pw geysers that may or may not be present. I think we can agree that PW is a useful resource, and that a single generator produces more O2 and clay through deodorizes than multiple vents do. And one of those O2 vents could've been a PW geyser, or many other infinitely more useful vents.

Yes, of course, a pwater vent is more useful... but do you need 7 of them?

And yes, you can turn the pwater from the generator into O2 and clay, but it's kind of a pain to get the stuff to evaporate at any meaningful rate.

26 minutes ago, Ixenzo said:

What for? I don't need slime as I've never farmed mushrooms

Really?  Wow... mushrooms are awesome.  Very cheap to grow.  Don't need water and light like the annoying bristle berries and you don't need to grow as many either.

30 minutes ago, Ixenzo said:

oxylite refinery is very stable and apart from power is essentially free (you only need it for a few launches and creating an entire ranch of morphs just for that is absurd in my eyes)

Yea, now that I've done it, I realize it didn't take very long to get to LOX so it probably would have been easier to just spend the power on the refinery for the short time you need it.  Still, I like the critters and they provide meat.

33 minutes ago, Ixenzo said:

Now that I think about it, the only ranch I actually need is the plastic dreckos and the only other ranch I've been using is hatches that I eventually morph into smooth ones, but these days I'm thinking of foregoing them altogether - the savings in refinery power aren't valuable to me, and the heat aspect of refining is moot with the heat dump solution I've been using. And I'd like to get 100% of the metal, please.

Yea, I'd never consider smooth hatches.  You have to take a 100% loss on metal for a while to breed them,and then it's still 25%.  I'm at 750 cycles in and have more refined metal than I know what to do with and still haven't dumped enough heat from my metal refinery into the cold biome to melt the sucker ( it is a pretty big one ), and I've got two others on the map too.

 

[KittenIsAGeek]

42 minutes ago, psusi said:

Yea, I'd never consider smooth hatches.

My last three worlds haven't needed refineries (or rock crushers) until I started working steel because of Smooth Hatches.  Generally as soon as I can, I lock up a regular hatch and start feeding it sedimentary rock until I get a stone hatch egg.  I move that egg to a different area and stick some copper ore in with it.  By time I'm ready to start using refined metals, I usually have a smooth hatch and I really haven't lost that much copper.

I'm still using them to "refine" my iron.

[KILLABUDZ]

3 hours ago, Ixenzo said:

it's objectively the better way.

*subjectively.
 

 

2 hours ago, caffeinated21 said:

Re: Arbor trees, I’m not that into wild-planting ¯\_(ツ)_/¯. I think it’s fair to argue that a carbon scrubber is a lot simpler to setup than a pip+wild planting + ethanol distillery. As you mentioned, power is nearly infinite so who cares about 120w?

You can produce water with wild trees.

 

1 hour ago, psusi said:

Yea, I'd never consider smooth hatches.  You have to take a 100% loss on metal for a while to breed them,and then it's still 25%.  I'm at 750 cycles in and have more refined metal than I know what to do with

The "waste" doesnt mean much when you have far more refined metal than you know what to do with does it?
No power, less dupe time than a crusher and better efficiency. Just dont attack a smooth hatch, they will murder your dupes unless you use ladders etc to keep your dupes out of range.

[psusi]

2 hours ago, KILLABUDZ said:

The "waste" doesnt mean much when you have far more refined metal than you know what to do with does it?
No power, less dupe time than a crusher and better efficiency. Just dont attack a smooth hatch, they will murder your dupes unless you use ladders etc to keep your dupes out of range.

I dunno... metal feels precious... maybe because it did used to be finite and I never seemed to have enough.  Now that we have it falling from the sky ( they even seem to have added gold and copper meteors now, not just iron ), and can get more with rockets... and I'm not wasting it making heavy watt wire any more... maybe it isn't so bad to waste it on smooth hatches.  On the other hand, that cold biome isn't going to melt itself

On the other hand, the reason I like melting the cold biome is because I'm used to water being precious and that doesn't seem to be the case any more either.  Maybe I'll have to try it once I'm done with this world.