Rocket stuff is so buggy!

[watermelen671]

4 hours ago, nome said:

And threaten my job security???

You'd still have the job of head Meme Lord. You create the lies, I just keep track of the continuity.

4 hours ago, nome said:

There are lots in our neighbourhood. It's a popular area of the city for tech companies. 

Yeah I might've lurked around the area in Google Street View...but I mean I didn't find anything so yeah!

[psusi]

2 hours ago, watermelen671 said:

You'd still have the job of head Meme Lord. You create the lies, I just keep track of the continuity.

Hey there Klei guy!  Is it a bug that liquid and gas pipes are generally made out of raw minerals, but for some reason, liquid pipes can not be made out of mafic rock even though gas pipes can, and instead, liquid pipes can be made out of wolframite even though they can't be made of any other metal ore, nor can gas pipes be made out of it?

[watermelen671]

13 hours ago, psusi said:

[snip]

I meant like the meme continuity but I guess I can take a crack at explaining this...

Spoiler

All of the raw minerals that can be used to make liquid pipes share the "Plumbable" tag, whereas Fossil, Isoresin, and Mafic rock have "Generic Buildable" tags. 

So in order to build liquid pipes, you need to use materials that have the "Plumbable" tag, which Fossil, Isoresin and Mafic rock do not have. 

It's a specific tag inherent to the Plumbing tech tree, which is why gas pipes do not have it. That's why liquid pipes can be made out of Wolframite, but all other gas pipes aside from the radiant gas pipe cannot be made from Wolframite. It's all about the tags ma dude.

TL;DR it's not a bug, everything's working as intended...unless a dev swings by and says otherwise.

Spoiler

Also I'm not a Klei dev. It'd be cool if I was...but like minespatch, I'm just a really big fan.

[psusi]

1 hour ago, watermelen671 said:

It's a specific tag inherent to the Plumbing tech tree, which is why gas pipes do not have it. That's why liquid pipes can be made out of Wolframite, but all other gas pipes aside from the radiant gas pipe cannot be made from Wolframite. It's all about the tags ma dude.

I understand the tags, but that is not relevant to the fact that it makes no sense to be able to make only liquid pipes out of only one type of metal.   i.e. it seems like they put the tag on the wrong thing.

[watermelen671]

1 minute ago, psusi said:

I understand the tags, but that is not relevant to the fact that it makes no sense to be able to make only liquid pipes out of only one type of metal.   i.e. it seems like they put the tag on the wrong thing.

Nope, it's been around since the the first build. You can make liquid pipes out of metal, but not the regular/insulated ones.

It's not a bug is what I'm saying. It's been that way since the start.

[DarkMaster13]

1 hour ago, watermelen671 said:

Nope, it's been around since the the first build. You can make liquid pipes out of metal, but not the regular/insulated ones.

It's not a bug is what I'm saying. It's been that way since the start.

Liquid pipes have a bizarre constriction material list.  It's a holdover from earlier in development that was never changed.  Unlike tiles, air pipes, insulated air pipes, insulated liquid pipes, and other items made with minerals, liquid pipes have a special list of materials they can be made of.  Unlike all other buildings made of minerals, you can make liquid pipes out of wolframite, but not mafic rock.  It's an oversight that really should be corrected at some point and it shouldn't be that tough a fix.

[Sasza22]

5 hours ago, DarkMaster13 said:

it shouldn't be that tough a fix.

It probably isn`t but knowing how fixing stuff like this goes it would look like this:

Let me just change the tags, it`s easy.
Uhh, it`s such a mess, those tags make no sense in this version, better just remove them.
Hmm, removing the tag requires to change the code for the pipes, that shouldn`t take long...
Damn, this creates all sorts of bugs, why did i even try to clean up this mess?
What are those things? I never saw that code? How did i break all this stuff, i`m just fixing the tags.
How did that take so much time to fix?! And it`s still not working properly, i better rever to the last stabile version.
Ok, i`m never touching this thing again. It`s not actually broken so lets leave it like that.

I can see it going this way. Similar stuff happened to me a few times. I still didn`t fix it btw.

[psusi]

7 hours ago, watermelen671 said:

Nope, it's been around since the the first build. You can make liquid pipes out of metal, but not the regular/insulated ones.

I don't think you understand what I'm saying.  Yes, radiant liquid pipes are made out of metal ( refined ).  Radiant gas pipes are made out of metal ( unrefined ).  Contrary to what you said, regular liquid pipes can be made out of wolframite, but no other metal.  That's weird.

[suxkar]

I believe it is a bit of a vestigial situation: before aluminium/aluminium ore, the best radiant pipes were wolframite before you got your hands on steel. Wolframite is still the best (again before steel is aquired) in worlds without the tree biome.

Mafic rock is the best mass available insulator and liquid pipes are the ones that carry most heat. May be they wanted to make it not too easy to transfer liquid without spiling heat. I personally like the fact that there is a bit of diversity between the gas and liquid plumbing. May be there are other specific balance reasons and, even if there aren't, I'm still happy about the asymmetry, I think it adds "colour". This is a personal opinion of course.

[psusi]

2 hours ago, suxkar said:

I believe it is a bit of a vestigial situation: before aluminium/aluminium ore, the best radiant pipes were wolframite before you got your hands on steel. Wolframite is still the best (again before steel is aquired) in worlds without the tree biome.

Again, I am not talking about radiant pipes, but normal ones.  Radiant liquid pipes can't be made out of wolframite even; you have to refine it into tungsten.

2 hours ago, suxkar said:

Mafic rock is the best mass available insulator and liquid pipes are the ones that carry most heat. May be they wanted to make it not too easy to transfer liquid without spiling heat

I am surprised that mafic is a good insulator; I actually wanted to use it as a conductor because it says it is thermally reactive.

 

[suxkar]

1 hour ago, psusi said:

Again, I am not talking about radiant pipes, but normal ones.  Radiant liquid pipes can't be made out of wolframite even; you have to refine it into tungsten.

I am surprised that mafic is a good insulator; I actually wanted to use it as a conductor because it says it is thermally reactive.

 

I can't check right now, but are you sure? I am 100% sure i built wolframite radiant pipes, but that was before the launch update.

Never trust those tags, only the numbers: mafic rock has one of the lowest thermal conductivities among "tilable" materials, beaten only by ceramic and insulation.

[Ixenzo]

1 hour ago, suxkar said:

Never trust those tags, only the numbers: mafic rock has one of the lowest thermal conductivities among "tilable" materials, beaten only by ceramic and insulation.

 

Spoiler

 

 

Regular and insulated out of igneous (top) and mafic (bottom) at 20C against 1000kg of diamond at 100K on the left and 1000kg 1100K on the right, ran for three cycles (don't have time atm). Insulated Igneous is clearly better as the temperature of any of the three tiles hasn't changed a bit, whereas the insulated mafic's changed 0.2744K, and the colder diamond tile warmed up by 0.0686K (no measurable change for the hot one).

Regular igneous tile ended up at 739.4261K against 740.4229K hot and 286.5992K cold diamond. It seems to be hitting the thermal limit since it's stopped transferring any heat. Regular mafic tile is 588.5492K against 589.5477K hot and 587.5507K cold diamond: obvious equilibrium.

[psusi]

5 hours ago, suxkar said:

I can't check right now, but are you sure? I am 100% sure i built wolframite radiant pipes, but that was before the launch update.

Radiant gas pipes can be made out of wolframite and all other metal ores.  Are you thinking of that maybe?  It very well may have changed; I didn't notice this when I played last year.  Either way, right now at least, this is how things sit and it doesn't seem right.

[caffeinated21]

9 hours ago, Ixenzo said:

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

 

Regular and insulated out of igneous (top) and mafic (bottom) at 20C against 1000kg of diamond at 100K on the left and 1000kg 1100K on the right, ran for three cycles (don't have time atm). Insulated Igneous is clearly better as the temperature of any of the three tiles hasn't changed a bit, whereas the insulated mafic's changed 0.2744K, and the colder diamond tile warmed up by 0.0686K (no measurable change for the hot one).

Regular igneous tile ended up at 739.4261K against 740.4229K hot and 286.5992K cold diamond. It seems to be hitting the thermal limit since it's stopped transferring any heat. Regular mafic tile is 588.5492K against 589.5477K hot and 587.5507K cold diamond: obvious equilibrium.

I ran a similar test here and Mafic out performed igneous. I made the central tile = to the average temp so that the starting temp wouldn’t bid things. I did notice some weird behavior when I Tried higher temps like you’re showing here...

 

[Ixenzo]

9 hours ago, caffeinated21 said:

I ran a similar test here and Mafic out performed igneous. I made the central tile = to the average temp so that the starting temp wouldn’t bid things. I did notice some weird behavior when I Tried higher temps like you’re showing here...

 

Insulated mafic has half the conductivity of insulated igneous, however it has five times less SHC - this heavily influences the heat transfer with regard to the thermal calculations cutoff. With small enough delta T mafic will perform better due to its lower conductivity. But once delta T exceeds what its SHC can handle, insulated mafic will slowly but surely equalize the temperature, whereas insulated igneous will take much longer for any change to occur, if any at all - its higher SHC allows to transfer zero energy within a certain delta T band, and that band is five times as big as that of mafic.

Insulated igneous is good enough for everything except molten magma/metal and rocket exhaust, methinks. I don't see why would anyone bother with mafic when such a good insulator is laying on the ground everywhere.

[caffeinated21]

21 minutes ago, Ixenzo said:

Insulated mafic has half the conductivity of insulated igneous, however it has five times less SHC - this heavily influences the heat transfer with regard to the thermal calculations cutoff. With small enough delta T mafic will perform better due to its lower conductivity. But once delta T exceeds what its SHC can handle, insulated mafic will slowly but surely equalize the temperature, whereas insulated igneous will take much longer for any change to occur, if any at all - its higher SHC allows to transfer zero energy within a certain delta T band, and that band is five times as big as that of mafic.

Insulated igneous is good enough for everything except molten magma/metal and rocket exhaust, methinks. I don't see why would anyone bother with mafic when such a good insulator is laying on the ground everywhere.

Makes some sense as my high temp tests had some very hard to interpret results. Do you know exactly how the calculation works? It’s rather unintuitive...

[psusi]

36 minutes ago, Ixenzo said:

its higher SHC allows to transfer zero energy within a certain delta T band, and that band is five times as big as that of mafic.

Huh?  Why would a certain ΔT transfer a different amount of energy depending on the SHC?  The only thing SHC should change is how much the temperature changes when that energy is transferred.

[Ixenzo]

2 hours ago, psusi said:

Huh?  Why would a certain ΔT transfer a different amount of energy depending on the SHC?  The only thing SHC should change is how much the temperature changes when that energy is transferred.

@caffeinated21

If delta thermal energy per tick is less than 1.0E-4, no transfer occurs period. The way the calculation works is that even massive difference in temperature between tiles of otherwise different properties can result in zero transfer:

Quote

If you're wondering about that "thermal energy delta" rule, consider the following case:
Cell 1 is 1kg of hydrogen at 320K, cell 2 is 800kg of gold amalgalm at 6.4K (not a naturally found temperature, but you'll understand the choice)
Here, Q1 = 2.4 * 1 * 320 = 768, and Q2 = 0.15 * 800 * 6.4 = 768
This causes ΔQ' to be capped at |Q2 - Q1| / 8 = 0: no transfer is done despite the huge temperature difference and the relatively good conductivities.

 

[caffeinated21]

Ahhhhh, I remember that thread.. 

I wonder what they were intending when they coded something so manifestly non-physically intuitive. Maybe it was intended to get at the amount of heat that was actually flowing, and say "below this amount of heat flow--which does depend on SHC (and mass)--we just don't care and should ignore it"