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Can someone help me with insulation point?


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I have play the game for a while and i know that warm clothes can delay freezing in the winter.But only one thing i don’t know:how insulation point affect to body tempurature ?Without any insulation ,a character drop 1 degree per sec.What if we have 15 insulation point?45?60?Or else?Can someone help me please?

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21 hours ago, NormalPinkerton said:

I'm pretty sure it slows down your temperature drop per sec.

Yeah you are right,but i don’t know the exact time to drop a degree with different insulation points

3 hours ago, 1TeeMo said:

Thank you for send me this link,but i have visited that link,and it doesn’t indicate the exact timing,so i have to post this topic to ask you guys

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On 12.11.2019 at 8:24 PM, Starving eater said:

I have play the game for a while and i know that warm clothes can delay freezing in the winter.But only one thing i don’t know:how insulation point affect to body tempurature ?Without any insulation ,a character drop 1 degree per sec.What if we have 15 insulation point?45?60?Or else?Can someone help me please?

        self.delta = (ambient_temperature + self.totalmodifiers + self:GetMoisturePenalty()) - self.current            

local winterInsulation = self:GetInsulation()
            self.rate = TUNING.SEG_TIME / (TUNING.SEG_TIME + winterInsulation))

seg_time is 16 or something like that

 

go dig temperature.lua 

But I don't think this would give you anything during actual gameplay, nearly useless info.

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5 hours ago, Desblat said:

        self.delta = (ambient_temperature + self.totalmodifiers + self:GetMoisturePenalty()) - self.current            

local winterInsulation = self:GetInsulation()
            self.rate = TUNING.SEG_TIME / (TUNING.SEG_TIME + winterInsulation))

seg_time is 16 or something like that

 

go dig temperature.lua 

But I don't think this would give you anything during actual gameplay, nearly useless info.

Uh...thank you?But last night i have found the mechanics of insulation points,and this make me ******* confuse.But yeah,thank you for sending me this.It might be useful once i get it

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On 11/13/2019 at 4:32 PM, Starving eater said:

Yeah you are right,but i don’t know the exact time to drop a degree with different insulation points

Thank you for send me this link,but i have visited that link,and it doesn’t indicate the exact timing,so i have to post this topic to ask you guys

These rates are per second as it says in the wiki.

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1 hour ago, 1TeeMo said:

These rates are per second as it says in the wiki.

I don't see the any rates given based on insulation points. There is this sentence on that page:

This will add up to a whopping 615 points of insulation and would take 16.67 real time minutes to freeze (with a fully charged Thermal Stone).

which I don't understand how the result was calculated. What is the initial temperature? Was this the formula used:

-30 / (30 + total_insulation)

The page doesn't state the units used in this formula. Even assuming its degrees per second, I still find a discrepancy between what rate this formula gives me and the rate I observe in game (i.e. temperature drops faster than what this formula tells me).

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On 13/11/2019 at 1:24 AM, Starving eater said:

I have play the game for a while and i know that warm clothes can delay freezing in the winter.But only one thing i don’t know:how insulation point affect to body tempurature ?Without any insulation ,a character drop 1 degree per sec.What if we have 15 insulation point?45?60?Or else?Can someone help me please?

I think that insulation points are basically the amount of time your character can move around without a heat source before your temperature starts falling. For example, 60 points would mean 60 seconds without a heat source before your character's temperature starts depleting.

I don't know much about insulation as I rely on thermal stones though so I might be wrong.

This insulation points mechanic is also why you shouldn't use a thermal stone with a winter clothing. Thermal stone is a heat source and thus restores your temperature instead of preventing it from falling. Insulation points prevent your heat from falling instead of restoring it. Get what I mean? So it's more viable to just use either a thermal stone or a winter clothing for Winter. Unless you're a tryhard then you could always keep a hot thermal stone, wait until it turns yellow (warm status) and wear your winter clothing. It basically "locks" your temperature much longer. Really stupid tactic but if you're good at managing your thermal stone and you are afraid of freezing, go ahead.

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1 hour ago, Booklover said:

I think that insulation points are basically the amount of time your character can move around without a heat source before your temperature starts falling. For example, 60 points would mean 60 seconds without a heat source before your character's temperature starts depleting.

I don't think this is the case. The player's temperature starts dropping immediately after leaving a heat source.

1 hour ago, Booklover said:

This insulation points mechanic is also why you shouldn't use a thermal stone with a winter clothing. Thermal stone is a heat source and thus restores your temperature instead of preventing it from falling. Insulation points prevent your heat from falling instead of restoring it. Get what I mean? So it's more viable to just use either a thermal stone or a winter clothing for Winter. Unless you're a tryhard then you could always keep a hot thermal stone, wait until it turns yellow (warm status) and wear your winter clothing. It basically "locks" your temperature much longer. Really stupid tactic but if you're good at managing your thermal stone and you are afraid of freezing, go ahead.

I'm not sure what you mean by "restoring." Isn't that what you want? To keep your temperature higher? The thermal stone will only provide heat as long as it remains warmer than the player. The stone's temperature is completely independent of the players, and drops at a rate determined by 120 insulation. The stone also provides 120 points of insulation to the player while orange or yellow hot. So wearing the thermal stone and winter clothing will provide the longest time before freezing.

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36 minutes ago, mistrbushido said:

I'm not sure what you mean by "restoring." Isn't that what you want? To keep your temperature higher?

I meant that there are two types of preventing freezing: Increasing your temperature (Restoring) and reducing the rate it drops. Things like campfires and thermal stones increase your temperature while Winter clothing reduce the rate it falls.

38 minutes ago, mistrbushido said:

The thermal stone will only provide heat as long as it remains warmer than the player. The stone's temperature is completely independent of the players, and drops at a rate determined by 120 insulation. The stone also provides 120 points of insulation to the player while orange or yellow hot. So wearing the thermal stone and winter clothing will provide the longest time before freezing.

I found this in the Don't Starve Wiki.

The Thermal Stone does not combine well with insulation clothing due to its mechanics in DST. A Thermal Stone is a good insulation item, comparable to a single Beefalo Hat.

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9 hours ago, Booklover said:

I meant that there are two types of preventing freezing: Increasing your temperature (Restoring) and reducing the rate it drops. Things like campfires and thermal stones increase your temperature while Winter clothing reduce the rate it falls.

I found this in the Don't Starve Wiki.

The Thermal Stone does not combine well with insulation clothing due to its mechanics in DST. A Thermal Stone is a good insulation item, comparable to a single Beefalo Hat.

What we are interested in is how long it takes to freeze after leaving a heat source. Thermal stones are a heat source only when its temperature is above the players. It will always cool down faster than the player, but will provide 120 insulation while it is still glowing. So then how does the thermal stone not combine well? From my understanding of thermal stone mechanics in DST, it should be fine to combine the stone with thermal clothing as it will provide extra insulation.

And a little rant about the wiki:

Spoiler

I doubt the detailed description of temperature with all the formulas and code in the wiki page for freezing is accurate for DST. It's likely a description of the mechanics in singleplayer DS. My point is, the wiki is very inaccurate, incomplete, outdated, and is a mess when it comes to detailed mechanics of anything. DS and DST have diverged significantly enough that sometimes I feel there should be two separate wikis for each game to make it clear which info is for DS or DST.

Edit:

5 hours ago, SilentBalloon said:

Pseudo-code:

How do thermal stones factor into this?

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To answer the OP's question: a winter hat with 120 insulation will give you a heat loss of 1 degree per 5 seconds. A beefalo hat with 240 insulation will give you a heat loss of 1 degree per 9 seconds.

To answer everyone else's questions about temperature mechanics and thermal stones in DST: I made a lengthy thread a while ago on reddit about this topic. 

 

If anyone just wants the tl;dr while skipping all the data and methodology, just read the "final conclusion".

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9 hours ago, mistrbushido said:

How do thermal stones factor into this?

It depends on the ambient temperature and the heat/cold source whether the body temperature rising or falling. The specific calculations are quite complicated. Simply put, the body temperature is approaching a certain temperature, which is the average of the ambient temperature and the heat/cold source temperature in some form.
The thermal stone is a stand-in. The thermal stone itself has 120 points of basic insulation and it may be a hot/cold source(depends on its temperature) for the character.

Simulate the normal cooling process .We assume:
The ambient temperature is -20 (constant);
The initial body temperature is 50;
The initial temperature of the thermal stone is 40;
No other heat/cold source is working.
Then

p1.png.3f1ae2c5ac6e5c90514985b89d54e57d.png

p2.png.523509e4379c16cb59e171af71416725.png

p3.png.658ae7081ad13464d4a6a858ac8db7f1.png

Insulation actually works only when the thermal stone turns white(Figure 1,2) or yellow(Figure 3). If the initial temperature of the thermal stone is high enough, the initial body temperature becomes insignificant.

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1 hour ago, SilentBalloon said:

 

Insulation actually works only when the thermal stone turns white(Figure 1,2) or yellow(Figure 3). If the initial temperature of the thermal stone is high enough, the initial body temperature becomes insignificant.

That's not quite what happens. Your thermal stone has its own temperature that decays at a rate equal to 120 insulation INDEPENDENT of your body temperature; however, the moment the stone turns grey, your thermal stone stops working. This is why a 120-insulation winter hat keeps you warm for slightly longer; the winter hat's insulation takes over right as your thermal stone stops working to delay your freeze time. For a 240-insulation beefalo hat, on the other hand, your body temperature actually stays hotter than your thermal stone (240 insulation vs 120 insulation), resulting in the thermal stone doing absolutely nothing. You delay freezing to death at 457.9 seconds NOT because of the thermal stone, but because of the beefalo hat. 

In other words, if your insulation is less than or equal to 120, the insulation gear does absolutely nothing until the thermal stone turns grey. If your insulation is above 120, the thermal stone does absolutely nothing at all.

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3 hours ago, SilentBalloon said:

snip - nice graphs

What is the reason for body temperature to remain constant during certain times? I don't think it works like that in either single player or DST, but its probably because ambient temperature is always changing in actual gameplay.

1 hour ago, Rinkusan said:

That's not quite what happens. Your thermal stone has its own temperature that decays at a rate equal to 120 insulation INDEPENDENT of your body temperature; however, the moment the stone turns grey, your thermal stone stops working. This is why a 120-insulation winter hat keeps you warm for slightly longer; the winter hat's insulation takes over right as your thermal stone stops working to delay your freeze time. For a 240-insulation beefalo hat, on the other hand, your body temperature actually stays hotter than your thermal stone (240 insulation vs 120 insulation), resulting in the thermal stone doing absolutely nothing. You delay freezing to death at 457.9 seconds NOT because of the thermal stone, but because of the beefalo hat. 

This is my understanding of how thermal stones work in DST.

1 hour ago, Rinkusan said:

In other words, if your insulation is less than or equal to 120, the insulation gear does absolutely nothing until the thermal stone turns grey. If your insulation is above 120, the thermal stone does absolutely nothing at all.

So the be sure, does the thermal stone provide any insulation to the player, or does it just have the 120 insulation for itself? In other words, with just the stone, does the player attempt to match its temperature as long as the thing is above grey or does the players temperature drop at a rate determined by some amount of insulation?

edit: I read your comment on the reddit post, and it sounds like the thermal stone does not provide insulation to the player. This chart on the wiki is very misleading.

Item 
 
Insulation 
 
Slot 
 
Thermal Stone Stage 5Thermal Stone (stage 5) Don't Starve Together icon 240 /
Thermal Stone Stage 4Thermal Stone (stage 4) Don't Starve Together icon 240 /
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2 hours ago, Rinkusan said:

That's not quite what happens. Your thermal stone has its own temperature that decays at a rate equal to 120 insulation INDEPENDENT of your body temperature; however, the moment the stone turns grey, your thermal stone stops working. This is why a 120-insulation winter hat keeps you warm for slightly longer; the winter hat's insulation takes over right as your thermal stone stops working to delay your freeze time. For a 240-insulation beefalo hat, on the other hand, your body temperature actually stays hotter than your thermal stone (240 insulation vs 120 insulation), resulting in the thermal stone doing absolutely nothing. You delay freezing to death at 457.9 seconds NOT because of the thermal stone, but because of the beefalo hat. 

In other words, if your insulation is less than or equal to 120, the insulation gear does absolutely nothing until the thermal stone turns grey. If your insulation is above 120, the thermal stone does absolutely nothing at all.

I think we are stressing different aspects of the same thing. 

Spoiler
4 hours ago, SilentBalloon said:

p3.png.658ae7081ad13464d4a6a858ac8db7f1.png

 

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p4.png.6517f758720e87e7883d704b66edf099.png

 

Spoiler

By the way, the initial body temperature I set is exactly (100 - 20 + 60 * 2.1)/4.1 = 50.24. I assume that the character is warming at the dwarf star.

In this case, (before the thermal stone turns yellow) carrying the stone and wearing the hat = only carrying the stone ≈ only wearing the hat.

 

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1 hour ago, mistrbushido said:

What is the reason for body temperature to remain constant during certain times? I don't think it works like that in either single player or DST, but its probably because ambient temperature is always changing in actual gameplay.

 

4 hours ago, SilentBalloon said:

It depends on the ambient temperature and the heat/cold source whether the body temperature rising or falling. The specific calculations are quite complicated. Simply put, the body temperature is approaching a certain temperature, which is the average of the ambient temperature and the heat/cold source temperature in some form.
The thermal stone is a stand-in. The thermal stone itself has 120 points of basic insulation and it may be a hot/cold source(depends on its temperature) for the character.

pp.PNG.3577e0de5e646f67098d301891344e45.PNG

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5 hours ago, SilentBalloon said:

I think we are stressing different aspects of the same thing. 

  Hide contents

 

p5.png.e9f329a6ad5f9334b7d100dd3ef42329.png

p4.png.6517f758720e87e7883d704b66edf099.png

 

  Reveal hidden contents

By the way, the initial body temperature I set is exactly (100 - 20 + 60 * 2.1)/4.1 = 50.24. I assume that the character is warming at the dwarf star.

In this case, (before the thermal stone turns yellow) carrying the stone and wearing the hat = only carrying the stone ≈ only wearing the hat.

 

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pp.PNG.3577e0de5e646f67098d301891344e45.PNG

The thing I was responding to originally was "Insulation actually works only when the thermal stone turns white(Figure 1,2) or yellow(Figure 3)"

I actually misinterpreted "white thermal stone" as the stage 1 thermal stone instead of the stage 3 "grey" thermal stone, so please ignore that part of my post; that being said, I was also trying to say that in figure 3, the thermal stone turning yellow shouldn't affect your temperature. I talked about this in the reddit post, but depending on how you did the experiment, there is a reason why having a beefalo hat + thermal stone delays your freeze time by 9-18 seconds compared to only having a beefalo hat, and it's NOT because the thermal stone actually has an effect on your body temp while you're wearing the beefalo hat. 

If you don't mind me asking, could you explain what you did methodologically to get these numbers?

Also, I'm a bit confused by your graph because I know for sure that thermal stones do not turn grey at -10C. Is your graph mislabeled? Because the yellow thermal stone portion should be the grey thermal stone, and the orange thermal stone portion should be the yellow thermal stone. The thermal stone temperature chart you posted points out this discrepancy.
 

7 hours ago, mistrbushido said:

edit: I read your comment on the reddit post, and it sounds like the thermal stone does not provide insulation to the player. This chart on the wiki is very misleading.

Item 
 
Insulation 
 
Slot 
 
Thermal Stone Stage 5Thermal Stone (stage 5) Don't Starve Together icon 240 /
Thermal Stone Stage 4Thermal Stone (stage 4) Don't Starve Together icon 240 /

Yep, that is super misleading. That being said, I can't find that chart on the Thermal Stone wiki page for some reason; where did you find it?

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9 hours ago, mistrbushido said:

What is the reason for body temperature to remain constant during certain times? I don't think it works like that in either single player or DST, but its probably because ambient temperature is always changing in actual gameplay.

Oops, the behavior is correct in DST, but not DS.

8 hours ago, SilentBalloon said:

The specific calculations are quite complicated. Simply put, the body temperature is approaching a certain temperature, which is the average of the ambient temperature and the heat/cold source temperature in some form.

Can you provide the calculations?

2 hours ago, Rinkusan said:

Also, I'm a bit confused by your graph because I know for sure that thermal stones do not turn grey at -10C. Is your graph mislabeled?

I think that's the temperature of the thermal stone itself, which doesn't actually determine the character's temperature directly. It only determines the stage of the thermal stone, and each stage gives off a certain fixed temperature (40 degrees at stage 4, 60 degrees at stage 5). I'm curious as to how you can calculate the player's temperature as a function of the ambient temperature and the thermal stone's stage.

2 hours ago, Rinkusan said:

Yep, that is super misleading. That being said, I can't find that chart on the Thermal Stone wiki page for some reason; where did you find it?

This is provided on the wiki page on Freezing.

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So now here is an attempt to sum up everything in this thread

On 11/12/2019 at 9:24 AM, Starving eater said:

I have play the game for a while and i know that warm clothes can delay freezing in the winter.But only one thing i don’t know:how insulation point affect to body tempurature ?Without any insulation ,a character drop 1 degree per sec.What if we have 15 insulation point?45?60?Or else?Can someone help me please?

The rate of temperature change is determined by the function

-30 / (30 + total_insulation)

where total_insulation is the sum of all the insulation that you have. The units are degrees per second. Example: with a beefalo hat and puffy vest (240 insulation each), the rate is 30/(30+240+240) = 0.0588 degrees per second, or 17 seconds per degree of drop.

On 11/19/2019 at 12:42 PM, mistrbushido said:

How do thermal stones factor into this?

So thermal stones have their own temperature that is not affected by the player's temperature or insulation and decays at a fixed rate determined by 120 insulation. The thermal stone also does not provide any insulation to the player. All the thermal stone does is act as a heat source with a fixed temperature that depends on the thermal stone's stage and the ambient temperature.

For a stage 4 thermal stone (yellow), it emits a temperature of 40 degrees. For stage 5 (glowing red), it is 60 degrees. The stage of the thermal stone is determined by the difference between its own temperature and the ambient temperature. If the thermal stone is 10-30 degrees above the ambient temperature, it will be at stage 4. If it is more than 30 degrees above, it will be stage 5.

With the thermal stone as the only heat source and that the player is holding it in the inventory, the target body temperature can be calculated by the formula:

T_B = (T_A + w_H*T_H)/(w_H + 1)

where T_B is the target body temperature, w_H is a constant determined by holding a thermal stone (w_H = 2.1), and T_H is the temperature of the heat source. This is a simplified version of an equation that determines whether body temperature will raise or decrease, and is provided in detail in the comments below.

 

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10 hours ago, mistrbushido said:

I think that's the temperature of the thermal stone itself, which doesn't actually determine the character's temperature directly. It only determines the stage of the thermal stone, and each stage gives off a certain fixed temperature (40 degrees at stage 4, 60 degrees at stage 5). I'm curious as to how you can calculate the player's temperature as a function of the ambient temperature and the thermal stone's stage.

 

Right, but what I'm saying is that the temperature INACCURATELY reflects the thermal stones' color on his graph. If the thermal stone is at 40 degrees and decreasing, the stone should be yellow, not red according to the chart on the wiki.

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11 hours ago, Rinkusan said:

I talked about this in the reddit post, but depending on how you did the experiment, there is a reason why having a beefalo hat + thermal stone delays your freeze time by 9-18 seconds compared to only having a beefalo hat, and it's NOT because the thermal stone actually has an effect on your body temp while you're wearing the beefalo hat. 

The ambient temperature is not so low in the early winter. The lower the ambient temperature is, the better the thermal stone performs.

11 hours ago, Rinkusan said:

Also, I'm a bit confused by your graph because I know for sure that thermal stones do not turn grey at -10C. Is your graph mislabeled? Because the yellow thermal stone portion should be the grey thermal stone, and the orange thermal stone portion should be the yellow thermal stone. The thermal stone temperature chart you posted points out this discrepancy.

ppp.PNG.c13b6da86d315280fd544e357f1a9bf6.PNG

See https://dontstarve.fandom.com/wiki/Thermal_Stone.

 

By the way, the mod  "Combined Status" also shows the world temperature:

pppp.PNG.04e2809bd062a68509b07e40b0325c83.PNG

Or you can print the exact value in console:

print('World Temperature: \t', TheWorld.state.temperature)

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11 hours ago, Rinkusan said:

If you don't mind me asking, could you explain what you did methodologically to get these numbers?

Simulate the entire process frame by frame.

9 hours ago, mistrbushido said:

Can you provide the calculations?

T_A                                   Ambient temperature

t_B                                    Body temperature

T_H_i; T_C_j                       Hot/Cold sourse temperature

d_H_i; d_C_j                      (if exists)Disdance between the hot/cold sourse and the character(<10)

w_H_i; w_C_j                     = 2.1 for heat stones in the inventory;= 1 otherwise

ramp(x)                            =x if x>0; =0 otherwise

 

1. The heat/cold source effect will be weakened due to the distance:

t_H_i = T_H_i * (1 - (d_H_i/10)^2)

t_C_j = 70 - (70 - T_C_j) * (1 - (d_C_j/10)^2)

if the distance exists. Otherwise t_H_i = T_H_i and t_C_j = T_C_j.

2. Calculate:

E = (T_A - t_B) + (∑ ramp(t_H_i - t_B) * w_H_i)+ (∑ -ramp(t_B - t_C_j) * w_C_j)

The body temperature will rise when E > 0 and drop when E < 0

 

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