Large SPOM acting weird

[Maxeek]

I am running for super sustainable and i was lazy, so I build a more open spom and it was a disaster, leaks, low h2 output. After turning back to design is used in my last maps funnelling the h2, it suddenly stopped leaking it into the o2 pumps also miraculously started finally self powering and not only that the energy output is multiple times higher.. What am I missing?

[DarkMoge]

you are missing atmo sensors that disable bottom pumps when the pressure is too low. The hydrogen leaks into them, because gas pumps are practically creating vacuum in there. Also, you end up wasting a lot of power since your pumps are not pumping at max capacity... Also, it will help with efficiency to put electrolyzers further apart... and gas pumps closer to electrolyzers.

[Maxeek]

They are but only limited h2 ever got to them, not the insane amount I'm now getting from the top pumps. Also even if h2 breaks atmo suit dock it should still be released (?, right?) and I'm not seeing it.

PS1: I ran the funnelled one in MK2 and than in my previous LU base and it definitely made more h2 in LU.

PS2: Having h2 into 20 atmos once every 2 - 5 cycles won't make 3 gas reservoirs magically full.

And seriously I increased hydrogen generators from 2 to 4 and connected all the stuff that was dupe powered (still going for super sustainable) to it and still see no decrease in h2. I might be forced to vent it at this point.

I still want to know why tho. I like math. Mostly in Klei game when it breaks.

[DemainaNyx]

As DarkMoge said, disable the bottom pumps if below a certain pressure to help avoid that. 

I also think because of your high oxygen levels, the hydrogen is getting trapped and not able to sort itself quickly enough in your first example, hence why it works better in the second.  Also, depending on if this was fixed or not, oxygen can sometimes delete hydrogen so with your original design some hydrogen might've been deleted while in the second one it was quickly absorbed into your hydrogen cloud before that happened.

 

I don't have an image of my original setup, but here's a mockup of what I ran before setting up my permanent oxygen room.  I built it in debug but this can easily be built in survival.

The reason I like this design is it's self-filtering and reduced hydrogen loss (that may have been removed in the game but just incase).  The hydrogen will float to the top of the chamber and naturally filter into that middle gas pump.  Because the electrolyzers are touching the hydrogen layer, new hydrogen is instantly absorbed into the existing layer which reduces the likelihood of it being sucked up by the oxygen pumps below.  I even leave some space between the electrolyzers and the oxygen pumps in hopes if a stray hydrogen packet isn't instantly absorbed it shouldn't be picked up by them.

The atmosensor for hydrogen is set to 750 and oxygen is set to 800.  Adjust as you see fit.

 

 

 

Now, if you want a fool proof system that uses/abuses some mechanics in the game but assures that you get the max oxygen and max hydrogen possible, then here you go.  Takes time to set up, but it's really nice since it has little chance of failing.  So far I've had it fail twice, once when a polluted oxygen packet blocked it due to my own fault and once when I froze the water by making my oxygen 0C in this room which was again my own fault.

 

[Maxeek]

Thank you for this explanation.  Never thought O2 could remove H2. I have to say that current build is making so much h2 that I have troubles burning it.

I was surprised it was making so little h2 before in simple open room.

I don't like exploits, I am completely fine with my lame aetn build, when it works.  

PS: Also I don't need to disable o2 pumps in the funnel build. It works almost 99,9999999% without fail.

I ran the build literally for 1000s cycles.

[beowulf2010]

40 minutes ago, Maxeek said:

PS: Also I don't need to disable o2 pumps in the funnel build. It works almost 99,9999999% without fail.

The automation control of the pumps is to save power. By only enabling pumps when the pressure is high enough for full packets, you can save a good chunk of electricity. 

[Maxeek]

2 minutes ago, beowulf2010 said:

The automation control of the pumps is to save power. By only enabling pumps when the pressure is high enough for full packets, you can save a good chunk of electricity. 

Actually even with vacuum on lower tile they mostly fill the pipe with 1kg of o2. They're pumping all they can. Only H2 pumps may feel alone but I noticed that having 2 of them works much better with the sensor and 6 o2 pumps.

[ZanthraSW]

Electrolyzer mechanics are a bit strange, When releasing the hydrogen and oxygen, it attempts first to add the gas to a nearby tile that already has that gas in it. If it is unable to do so, it will attempt to displace a gas (combine it with an adjacent tile) to make room for a new tile. If this displacenent fails, then it cann't release the gas, this displacement failure is quite common with electrolyzers. Remember that the displacement, which has a chance to fail, only happens if there is not another valid tile in which to put the gas, so having a lower ceiling helps keep the hydrogen from rising away from the electrolyzer as fast, and therefore makes the hydrogen release more consistent.

Basically instead of making many small bubbles of hydrogen that can end up deleting hydrogen, and can get pulled down to the O2 pumps at the bottom, instead it creates higher pressure bubbles of hydrogen above the electrolyzer that remain in the vicinity to avoid the destructive bubble creation process.

PS: They are not guaranteed to spawn above the electrolyzer, but the bubbles are slower to merge into the H2 layer under the ceiling than they are to rise upwards through a volume of O2 gas. The longer it stays there, the more Electrolyzer production cycles it can run without risking creating a new packet that may spawn lower and get sucked into the O2 pumps, or destroy the H2 outright.

[Wumpus the 19th]

the gas mixing is something im dealing with on a smaller than that size scale

there needs to be both a hydrogen and an oxygen gradient with atmo sensors as to not suck one into the other

if its crossing gases, a shutoff does not hurt in the slightest

[beowulf2010]

25 minutes ago, Maxeek said:

Actually even with vacuum on lower tile they mostly fill the pipe with 1kg of o2. They're pumping all they can. Only H2 pumps may feel alone but I noticed that having 2 of them works much better with the sensor and 6 o2 pumps.

Gotcha. The way you phrased what I quoted sounded like you thought the automation was part of the filtration. 

[Maxeek]

19 minutes ago, ZanthraSW said:

Electrolyzer mechanics are a bit strange, When releasing the hydrogen and oxygen, it attempts first to add the gas to a nearby tile that already has that gas in it. If it is unable to do so, it will attempt to displace a gas (combine it with an adjacent tile) to make room for a new tile. If this displacenent fails, then it cann't release the gas, this displacement failure is quite common with electrolyzers. Remember that the displacement, which has a chance to fail, only happens if there is not another valid tile in which to put the gas, so having a lower ceiling helps keep the hydrogen from rising away from the electrolyzer as fast, and therefore makes the hydrogen release more consistent.

Basically instead of making many small bubbles of hydrogen that can end up deleting hydrogen, and can get pulled down to the O2 pumps at the bottom, instead it creates higher pressure bubbles of hydrogen above the electrolyzer that remain in the vicinity to avoid the destructive bubble creation process.

PS: They are not guaranteed to spawn above the electrolyzer, but the bubbles are slower to merge into the H2 layer under the ceiling than they are to rise upwards through a volume of O2 gas. The longer it stays there, the more Electrolyzer production cycles it can run without risking creating a new packet that may spawn lower and get sucked into the O2 pumps, or destroy the H2 outright.

Actually this is why I never have any faith in small spoms. I rather build it bigger. And it worked, but then I tried something "new" (read lazy) and it failed. I guess its fate that it failed at a point of doing an achievement that can really benefit from good spom.

Thanks to everyone for your answers. You helped me a lot.

[KittenIsAGeek]

5 hours ago, Maxeek said:

I am running for super sustainable and i was lazy, so I build a more open spom and it was a disaster, leaks, low h2 output. After turning back to design is used in my last maps funnelling the h2, it suddenly stopped leaking it into the o2 pumps also miraculously started finally self powering and not only that the energy output is multiple times higher.. What am I missing?

 

4 hours ago, DarkMoge said:

you are missing atmo sensors that disable bottom pumps when the pressure is too low. The hydrogen leaks into them, because gas pumps are practically creating vacuum in there. Also, you end up wasting a lot of power since your pumps are not pumping at max capacity... Also, it will help with efficiency to put electrolyzers further apart... and gas pumps closer to electrolyzers.

Each electrolyzer produces 888 oxygen and 112 hydrogen per tick (optimally). Each gas pump can draw in 500g/s.  You have two gas pumps for oxygen per electrolyzer.  Each pair of pumps is trying to pull 1000g/s of oxygen from under the electrolyzer, but only 888g/s is available.  Thus, you're getting hydrogen.  

I'm not sure why exactly the "funneling" build works, but I'm guessing that several of the gas pumps under the electrolyzers are pulling vacuum instead of gas.  When the hydrogen is even with the space above the electrolyzer, then when hydrogen is produced each tick, it prefers to 'appear' in the already existing hydrogen.  Since oxygen is also produced at the same time, it keeps the hydrogen 'up' and disperses down.  I'm somewhat certain that if you look at the output of your gas pumps in the oxygen, they aren't drawing full capacity.

In my normal builds, I've found the most efficient is three pumps (two oxygen, one hydrogen) for two electrolyzers.  It takes a little more space, but I can pull a full 1000g/s of oxygen without having to worry about my hydrogen 'leaking' into my oxygen supply.

My current build.

Spoiler

 

[bzgzd]

10 hours ago, Maxeek said:

What am I missing?

Hydrogen element sensor position is different and that might be the reason. On working build you have it closer to electrolyzers.

If there is no hydrogen on tiles just above electrolyzer and they are fully in oxygen, H2 probably goes down to O2 pumps towards lower pressure and also sometimes produced H2 can be destroyed.

 

5 hours ago, KittenIsAGeek said:

Each electrolyzer produces 888 oxygen and 112 hydrogen per tick (optimally). Each gas pump can draw in 500g/s.  You have two gas pumps for oxygen per electrolyzer.  Each pair of pumps is trying to pull 1000g/s of oxygen from under the electrolyzer, but only 888g/s is available.  Thus, you're getting hydrogen.

There are 4 electrolyzers for 6 O2 pumps so oxygen pressure is probably going up and H2 sensor turns off hydrogen pumps accordingly to keep it even.

[KittenIsAGeek]

3 hours ago, bzgzd said:

There are 4 electrolyzers for 6 O2 pumps so oxygen pressure is probably going up and H2 sensor turns off hydrogen pumps accordingly to keep it even.

Thanks.  I worked 14 hours yesterday, so apparently I was tired enough that I couldn't count. LOL.

[Maxeek]

I guess next time I'll try one of those enclosed spoms. It seems having both o2 and h2 at lowest possible pressure works best.

The H2 destruction was unpleasant surprise.