Abyssalite cooling oxygen

[bzgzd]

I thought that abyssalite with zero conductivity is perfect insulator and  will never exchange any temperature with anything (except in case of some special bug situation), but now I am digging some slime biome with normal temperatures around 27C and then I noticed that oxygen started to be freezing cold.

I don't know if this is some bug or it is normal, but that abyssalite layer is cooling surrounding oxygen quite a lot. When I noticed it I monitored a bit temperature of that abyssalite tile in corner which was -18.3C and after few cycles it is now -17.6C and oxygen gets colder and colder.

Is this some new feature or is it a bug?

[Grimgaw]

26 minutes ago, bzgzd said:

I thought that abyssalite with zero conductivity

Abyssalite has non zero conductivity. (0.00001 to be exact)

[FenrirZeroZero]

I had the same Problem in my ice biome. Some warm natural abysalit tiles where warming the air so that my wheat got to warm....

If i remember correctly the thermal transfer with natural tiles is the average of the to elements. You could build some isulated tiles from sandstone and they would act better then the abysaltit... 

Natural abys only acts as an isulation if its two tiles thick atleast and it only prevents interaction of the two sides, not the interaction with the side and the abys....

[Hakon]

I have never encountered noticable heat transfer between abyssalite and a gas, only hot abyssalite with crude oil. In the picture the abyssalite cooled the oxygen a lot down in a few cycles. I think It is abnormal behavior.

[Grimgaw]

21 minutes ago, Hakon said:

I have never encountered noticable heat transfer between abyssalite and a gas, only hot abyssalite with crude oil.

That's because the liquid multiplier is much higher than gas.

Tile to Tile: q = lower TC * dT * 200. Further multiplied by 25 if gas with solid or by 625 if liquid with liquid. (Source)

[FenrirZeroZero]

34 minutes ago, Hakon said:

I have never encountered noticable heat transfer between abyssalite and a gas, only hot abyssalite with crude oil. In the picture the abyssalite cooled the oxygen a lot down in a few cycles. I think It is abnormal behavior.

Since we don't now how could the oxygen is and where it startet it is hard to say that it is abnormal. (Beside the fact that "a few cycle" could mean 20 cycle or 8 or 3 cycle...)

He only mentioned the temp of the abys. if the oxy was around 10° and was cooled to just 0° then it is quite normal heat transfer.

if it was 30° and has become -10° then it is abnormal in "a few cycle"

Also it is possible that there where other unnoticed factors cooling the area. In example molten poluted ice... or the cold items that are lying around *cough* 

It's minor heat exchange but it can add up.

[bzgzd]

1 hour ago, Grimgaw said:

Abyssalite has non zero conductivity. (0.00001 to be exact)

That will be it... for some reason I thought it is zero. Maybe it was last time when I played and we where building walls from abyssalite.

 

[Hakon]

1 minute ago, FenrirZeroZero said:

Since we don't now how could the oxygen is and where it startet it is hard to say that it is abnormal. (Beside the fact that "a few cycle" could mean 20 cycle or 8 or 3 cycle...)

He only mentioned the temp of the abys. if the oxy was around 10° and was cooled to just 0° then it is quite normal heat transfer.

if it was 30° and has become -10° then it is abnormal in "a few cycle"

Also it is possible that there where other unnoticed factors cooling the area. In example molten poluted ice... or the cold items that are lying around *cough* 

It's minor heat exchange but it can add up.

Yes  I think it is possible that something else cooled the oxygen down. Before this post I always thought abyssalite did not conduct that much heat with so little temperature difference. With "few cycles" I meant less that 172 cycles. I Am now doing an experiment to see if I can reproduce this heat transfer.

[Dan_Daniel2000]

Ive encountered similar behaviour in the oil biome. Some of the CO2 touching hot abyssalite got heated to about 170°C in About 10 cycles or so, and I know for a fact that non of the dug up materials were this hot.

After I filled these places with insulated tiles, without removing the debris, the temperature quickly returned to the normal 90°C.

Something weird is going on with abyssalite.

[Hakon]

1 hour ago, Grimgaw said:

That's because the liquid multiplier is much higher than gas.

Tile to Tile: q = lower TC * dT * 200. Further multiplied by 25 if gas with solid or by 625 if liquid with liquid. (Source)

Thanks for the great source but that is not what explains the heat transfer between hot abyssalite and liquids. after some experiments I am under the impression that heat transfer only happens when abyssalite is hotter then the fase-change temperature of the liquid it touches that abyssalite tile so 400°C for crude oil and 100°C for water (see pictures). Further more this heat transfer happens absolutely instantanious. Not like normal heat transfer. You can see that if the abyssalite is colder that the fase-change temperature of the liquid the heat transer happens normally again. abyssalite(400°C) and crude oil(-20°C) do not transfer heat in a noticeable way.

I have tried to repoduce heat transfer between a gas and abyssalite but I was not succesfull. After 20 cycles the oxygen did not change temperature. I am not sure in what conditions abyssalite conducts heat to gasses.

When heat transfer happens normally, abyssalite does not transfer any heat in normal temerature ranges.

Spoiler

 

[FenrirZeroZero]

4 minutes ago, Hakon said:

When heat transfer happens normally, abyssalite does not transfer any heat in normal temerature ranges.

  Reveal hidden contents

 

If you want to try things like this, then keep the test parameters the same/more identical:

All 3 Tests had different amounts of material touching the abys.

All 3 Test had different density per element

All 3 test hat different heat differences

In a test you should only change one parameter not so many. Otherwise you won't now what caused the difference.

Try this: a 5x5 chamber of isulation -> a ring of 3x3 tiles of the liquid/gas with 1 ton per tile and 50° temp (yes thats extrem for gas but normal for liquid) and the abysalit in the middle with 1000 T Mass and a temp of 200° (maybe try the other way to with abys with -100°) 

Best would be to use liquid / gas with the same heat capacity and heat transfer but thats unlikely to happen.

 

 

[Grimgaw]

Maybe Klei finally enabled those log averages they talked about year ago.

That could mean another of long standing issues has been fixed.

[Hakon]

14 minutes ago, FenrirZeroZero said:

If you want to try things like this, then keep the test parameters the same/more identical:

All 3 Tests had different amounts of material touching the abys.

All 3 Test had different density per element

All 3 test hat different heat differences

In a test you should only change one parameter not so many. Otherwise you won't now what caused the difference.

Try this: a 5x5 chamber of isulation -> a ring of 3x3 tiles of the liquid/gas with 1 ton per tile and 50° temp (yes thats extrem for gas but normal for liquid) and the abysalit in the middle with 1000 T Mass and a temp of 200° (maybe try the other way to with abys with -100°) 

Best would be to use liquid / gas with the same heat capacity and heat transfer but thats unlikely to happen.

The two experiments with liquid started with the exact same setup, exact same temperature differences, only the liquid element was different. Then I deconstructed some tiles and then the water and crude oil flashed to steam and sour gas/ petrolium. In the pictures I showed that the heat transfer stops at 400°C and 100°C for water and crude oil. 

With my experiment with oxygen I tried to reproduce the findings of OP, I did not try to compare to my tests with liquid heat transfer. 

I think my conclusions are correct, I would be happy if someone proves me wrong. 

[wachunga]

3 hours ago, bzgzd said:

Is this some new feature or is it a bug?

What OS are you running? Looks like Linux behaves differently than Windows. I don't have Linux to test myself, but the bug report looks pretty conclusive. Assuming the report is indeed correct, the question is which is the proper behavior.

 

Upon some brief testing, ONI on windows no longer follows the "lowest conductivity rule" for cell-cell transfers. This is an undocumented change in one of the last few updates, it has been lowest conductivity for a very long time. Klei needs to tell us what the actual intended behavior is.

[wachunga]

I did some more testing. Please excuse the extra post.

It now appears that the conductivity controlling cell to cell heat transfers is the geometric mean. Square root of the two conductivities multiplied together.

CellToCellHTTest.sav

Initial setup is 2 blocks of 100 kg of 0C granite. One touching 100 kg of 50C wolframite and the other touching 100 kg of 50C tungsten.

Use alt- to advance the game one tick. Then use the sample tool to determine exact temperature change. The wolframite changed by 5.3216C and the tungsten by 10.6432C.

This is 71,309 J and 142,618 J of heat respectively. 5.3216 * 0.134 * 100,000 = 71,309 and 10.6432 * 0.134 * 100,000 = 142,618.

Plug in the various values for q = sqrt(k1 * k2) * dT * 200:

Sqrt(3.39 * 15) * 50 * 200 = 71,309.

Sqrt(3.39 * 60) * 50 * 200 = 142,618.

Again, the big question is "Klei, what is the intended behavior?".

Please share any tests to the contrary, but be aware of clamping that causes odd results in cell-cell transfers.

Note: I forgot to disable mods on the save, but behavior is the same without the mods.

[Lifegrow]

Oh jeepers - @wachunga just got real mathy up in here. #kleiintentions

 

[bzgzd]

2 hours ago, Hakon said:

When heat transfer happens normally, abyssalite does not transfer any heat in normal temerature ranges.

It definitely does when I tested it.

Oxygen: 2kg, 26.9C (300K)
Abyssalite cold: 500kg, -23.1C (250K)
Abyssalite hot : 500kg,  76.9C (350K)

After just one cycle (right part of picture) oxygen cooled down to around 10C or heated up to around 42C

My "normal" situation was basically exactly that first case with abyssalite -25C and oxygen 2kg at 25C cooled down bellow zero in maybe 10 cycles.

 

1 hour ago, wachunga said:

What OS are you running?

Windows.

But I am not saying it is wrong or I am not sure how to calculate if it is using 0.00001 or more, I just didn't expected it to cool down so much after previous experiences (long time ago)...

 

[Hakon]

I was testing on the launch preview, it seems that they changed the heat transfer in one of the latest hotfixes. So my experiments are outdated. 

[FenrirZeroZero]

4 hours ago, Hakon said:

The two experiments with liquid started with the exact same setup, exact same temperature differences, only the liquid element was different. Then I deconstructed some tiles and then the water and crude oil flashed to steam and sour gas/ petrolium. In the pictures I showed that the heat transfer stops at 400°C and 100°C for water and crude oil. 

With my experiment with oxygen I tried to reproduce the findings of OP, I did not try to compare to my tests with liquid heat transfer. 

I think my conclusions are correct, I would be happy if someone proves me wrong. 

I'm sorry, the pictures and text didn't provide this ifo so i came to a wrong conclusion.

1 hour ago, Hakon said:

I was testing on the launch preview, it seems that they changed the heat transfer in one of the latest hotfixes. So my experiments are outdated. 

But this explains why my test result differet from yours. 

 

2 hours ago, bzgzd said:

It definitely does when I tested it.

Oxygen: 2kg, 26.9C (300K)
Abyssalite cold: 500kg, -23.1C (250K)
Abyssalite hot : 500kg,  76.9C (350K)

After just one cycle (right part of picture) oxygen cooled down to around 10C or heated up to around 42C

Yep i have the same behaivior on windows.

[0xFADE]

Accept the loving embrace of the cold void and use it as insulation.