Heat deletion post-launch?

[cblack]

I've been playing around since the big launch update changes, and I have to say I feel a bit limited when it comes to heat deletion.  Let's look at the options:

• AETN - These are either completely removed from the game, or just not in the asteroid type I chose.  I think it's the latter based on other posts here.
• Wheezewarts - As they now require a non-renewable (at least for practical purposes) resource, they aren't a long-term solution.
• Steam engine - Lackluster.  As far as I can tell a single aquatuner cooling water/PW still outpaces a single steam engine.  Requiring two (or more with super coolant) of them per aquatuner wastes a lot of space.

Which leaves the old standby of "dump as much heat as possible into steam before releasing it to space."  Is this really the only practical option when it comes to late-game cooling?  Am I missing something?

[flapee]

 

[greydaze]

3 hours ago, cblack said:

Steam engine - Lackluster.  As far as I can tell a single aquatuner cooling water/PW still outpaces a single steam engine.  Requiring two (or more with super coolant) of them per aquatuner wastes a lot of space.

Wow you must be generating a tremendous amount of heat or are you trying to solidify a magma biome? In my experience a single steam turbine can handle that setup easily. I've used a one turbine to cool two aquatuners running super coolant to liquefy oxygen and hydrogen simultaneously. 

[PhailRaptor]

3 hours ago, cblack said:

Wheezewarts - As they now require a non-renewable (at least for practical purposes) resource, they aren't a long-term solution.

While I certainly agree that it requires you jump through too many hoops for how early it is expected, to argue that Phosphorite is non-renewable is hilarious.  Dreckos are easy to ranch (if frustrating to set up) and produce a lot of Phosphorite.

[cblack]

6 minutes ago, greydaze said:

Wow you must be generating a tremendous amount of heat or are you trying to solidify a magma biome? In my experience a single steam turbine can handle that setup easily. I've used a one turbine to cool two aquatuners running super coolant to liquefy oxygen and hydrogen simultaneously. 

Right now I'm trying to cool several things

• 3x Volcano (Iron, Gold, and Copper)
• 5x5 grid of Natural Gas Generators
• Plastic and Petroleum production
• Cool steam geyser
• Metal refinery

And other miscellaneous things I can't remember off the top of my head.  In any case, the launch update hit me like a truck between the nerfs to Wheezewarts, absence of AETNs, and fixes to the Sieve.

4 minutes ago, PhailRaptor said:

While I certainly agree that it requires you jump through too many hoops for how early it is expected, to argue that Phosphorite is non-renewable is hilarious.  Dreckos are easy to ranch (if frustrating to set up) and produce a lot of Phosphorite.

As I recall you need to feed dreckos, which are fed Pincha Peppers, which themselves require phosphate.  I'm not really sure though as I haven't set up ranching for them yet, and in the past I've only ever bothered to do so for meat production.  I'll run though the math though to see if it's possible to get a Phosphorite farm up and running.

[nakomaru]

4 hours ago, cblack said:

Steam engine - Lackluster.  As far as I can tell a single aquatuner cooling water/PW still outpaces a single steam engine.  Requiring two (or more with super coolant) of them per aquatuner wastes a lot of space.

• Tuner heat transfer on water: 0.59 MW
• Tuner heat transfer on supercoolant: 1.18 MW
• Turbine deletion at steel tuner limit: 1.54 MW
• Turbine deletion at thermium tuner limit: 6.96 MW
• One turbine can cool 2.6 steel tuners on water.
• One turbine can cool 5.9 thermium tuners on supercoolant.

[LookingForBaal]

I don't understand why managing heat is so complicated now.  Did Klei not want us surviving as well as we were?  I thought it was perfectly fine having to gather up all the Weezeworts to keep my base heat in check.  Now I need to research crazy designs on forums to keep my base from heating up and I don't understand them.  It should not be this complicated.

[WoodieMain45684]

22 minutes ago, LookingForBaal said:

I don't understand why managing heat is so complicated now.

Managing heat is only complicated in harder asteroids that don't give you access to easy cooling such as wheezeworts.

Klei only changed them to require phosphorite and as PhailRaptor said:

54 minutes ago, PhailRaptor said:

Dreckos are easy to ranch (if frustrating to set up) and produce a lot of Phosphorite.

And maps will often give the player a large sum of phosphorite just available for grabs in the caustic biome/jungle.

The only time heat would get a little bit complicated is if you are trying to do some endgame stuff like: 

57 minutes ago, greydaze said:

I've used a one turbine to cool two aquatuners running super coolant to liquefy oxygen and hydrogen simultaneously.

or trying to harness the resources of a difficult geyser or something of that nature.

4 hours ago, cblack said:

Wheezewarts - As they now require a non-renewable (at least for practical purposes) resource, they aren't a long-term solution.

Wheezeworts fuel are renewable AND you can get more wheezeworts from care packages or by visiting the Interstellar Ice planet. Albeit the latter is quite lategame.

[PhailRaptor]

1 hour ago, cblack said:

As I recall you need to feed dreckos, which are fed Pincha Peppers, which themselves require phosphate.  I'm not really sure though as I haven't set up ranching for them yet, and in the past I've only ever bothered to do so for meat production.  I'll run though the math though to see if it's possible to get a Phosphorite farm up and running.

Woolly Dreckos can eat Pincha Peppers, Balm Lilies, Mealwood, and Bristle Blossoms.  I think Scaly Dreckos will eat all the same things, though I can't be sure, it's been a while.

Balm Lilies require literally nothing to be grown.  So you are, quite literally, pulling Phosphorite out of thin air.  Now that we have Pips, not only do we have a very effective source of Dirt to fertilize the Mealwood, but we also can wild-plant any of the listed plants, resulting in -- again -- free Phosphorite.

[bobucles]

Dreckos not only create free phosphorite for wort heat management, the glossy drecko makes critical plastic for steam heat deletion. No matter what, phosphorite is along the way.

[cblack]

1 hour ago, nakomaru said:

• One turbine can cool 2.6 steel tuners on water.

I'm pretty sure you're forgetting to account for the heat generated by the turbine itself.  I can't even get one tuner to run 100% of the time with self-cooling.

24 minutes ago, PhailRaptor said:

Balm Lilies require literally nothing to be grown.  So you are, quite literally, pulling Phosphorite out of thin air.  Now that we have Pips, not only do we have a very effective source of Dirt to fertilize the Mealwood, but we also can wild-plant any of the listed plants, resulting in -- again -- free Phosphorite.

Don't Balm Lilies require PW to grow?  I guess I'm not sure as they didn't spawn in my asteroid anywhere.  I'll have to go to space or print one to get access to them.

And how does one wild-plant things?  I recall this was doable in the past with some exploit... but I guess you can do it now by feeding the seeds to Pips?

[PhailRaptor]

37 minutes ago, cblack said:

Don't Balm Lilies require PW to grow?  I guess I'm not sure as they didn't spawn in my asteroid anywhere.  I'll have to go to space or print one to get access to them.

The only "extra" requirement is that they be in Chlorine atmosphere, which they do not consume.  Adequate temperature and pressure, as with other plants.  And that's it.  No further requirements.

38 minutes ago, cblack said:

And how does one wild-plant things?  I recall this was doable in the past with some exploit... but I guess you can do it now by feeding the seeds to Pips?

Pips are the only way to plant things as wild.  They will pick up loose seeds, or gather them from Storage Compactors, all on their own, and will plant them.  There is a restriction, though, that no more than 3 plants of any kind can be within a somewhat large area.  You can manipulate them relatively easy to maximize their density, there are a number of threads around about it.

The trade-off is that wild plants take 3 to 4 times longer to produce anything than domestic plants, but do not require fertilization or irrigation.

[avc15]

43 minutes ago, cblack said:

I'm pretty sure you're forgetting to account for the heat generated by the turbine itself.  I can't even get one tuner to run 100% of the time with self-cooling.

Are you blocking ports and/or using a carefully chosen steam temperature? Or are you letting it run with all ports open and temps above 400C? The more heat it processes, the faster it heats up. There are breakpoints for flow rate & temperature, and you should be aiming to operate just barely above one of those breakpoints.

Sorry if this seems like an overly simplistic question, it just has not been my experience. If you choose carefully your turbine's operating point, self-cooling is a rather small portion of its total cooling.

Then again if you're not sure what I'm on about, just take a look at the wiki article which seems to be mostly up-to-date.

[cblack]

37 minutes ago, avc15 said:

Are you blocking ports and/or using a carefully chosen steam temperature? Or are you letting it run with all ports open and temps above 400C? The more heat it processes, the faster it heats up.

That's my point--the more heat you put in, the more it produces, so a single turbine can only delete so much heat.  That's why the claim of 2.6 aquatuners running on H2O or PW seems absurd to me.

Anyway, I'm not blocking ports, or using absurdly hot steam:

Right now, only the right AT is being used.  The thermo sensor in the center is set to turn it on when the steam is below 134C, which in turn runs the turbine at 99.8C.  Any higher than that and the turbine overheats.  Well, maybe I could go a degree or two higher, I haven't tested to be sure, but other posts on this forum reported 144C which I know doesn't work.

This results in a duty cycle of around 66% for the AT, but take that number with a boulder of salt as I didn't want to sit there and actually time it.

[nakomaru]

1 hour ago, cblack said:

I'm pretty sure you're forgetting to account for the heat generated by the turbine itself.  I can't even get one tuner to run 100% of the time with self-cooling.

I did not. That's what the 0.9x multiplier is for.

[greydaze]

1 hour ago, cblack said:

I'm pretty sure you're forgetting to account for the heat generated by the turbine itself.  I can't even get one tuner to run 100% of the time with self-cooling.

I've been running this jank setup for over 200 cycles non-stop https://imgur.com/a/3AdMLUb. That aquatuner is whats keeping the turbines cool and it doesn't even run all the time.

[cblack]

10 minutes ago, nakomaru said:

I did not. That's what the 0.9x multiplier is for.

Do you have an in-game example of this?  I cannot get mine to even sink the heat from a single aquatuner with PW.

2 minutes ago, greydaze said:

That aquatuner is whats keeping the turbines cool and it doesn't even run all the time.

Ah, that seems counter-productive to me, but maybe it's better than what I'm doing (though possible less efficient power-wise).  I'm using the ATs to vacuum up heat from around the map and consolidate it below the turbines.

[Nebbie]

6 hours ago, cblack said:

I've been playing around since the big launch update changes, and I have to say I feel a bit limited when it comes to heat deletion.  Let's look at the options:

• AETN - These are either completely removed from the game, or just not in the asteroid type I chose.  I think it's the latter based on other posts here.
• Wheezewarts - As they now require a non-renewable (at least for practical purposes) resource, they aren't a long-term solution.
• Steam engine - Lackluster.  As far as I can tell a single aquatuner cooling water/PW still outpaces a single steam engine.  Requiring two (or more with super coolant) of them per aquatuner wastes a lot of space.

Which leaves the old standby of "dump as much heat as possible into steam before releasing it to space."  Is this really the only practical option when it comes to late-game cooling?  Am I missing something?

AETNs are not in many asteroids, since many asteroids have no, or very few, ice biomes.
Wheezeworts only need 4kg a cycle of phosphorite. A single drecko craps 10kg a cycle. Two drecko ranches (one regular, one glossy is how I do it, it's super easy, just set with mealwood and basically forget, little bit of automation on incubators later) will provide 160kg a cycle of phosphorite, which is enough for 40 wheezeworts. Of course, even with all of those in hydrogen, that's still like half the heat deletion provided by a steam turbine.
You just plain are doing something wrong with turbines if you can't get them to keep up with aquatuners, as an earlier post mentioned.

2 hours ago, LookingForBaal said:

I don't understand why managing heat is so complicated now.  Did Klei not want us surviving as well as we were?  I thought it was perfectly fine having to gather up all the Weezeworts to keep my base heat in check.  Now I need to research crazy designs on forums to keep my base from heating up and I don't understand them.  It should not be this complicated.

Wheezeworts just need phosphorite now, they still operate at the same efficiency as before (...after a certain bug was fixed that was making them run at wild rates while domesticate).
I do however agree, managing heat is awkward and complicated in the current form of the game, because there simply isn't a good step up between "printer pod gave me my first wheeze!" and "okay, the aquatuner and turbine system needs...". Ultimately, the midgame solution for now is electrolysis-based heat deletion, which is still a little complicated, but at least doesn't involve having to vacuum out any rooms, get steel, or get a lot of refined metal or plastic.

My hope is that Klei does some rebalancing. Electrolysis is busted because it simultaneously solves oxygen, heat, and power at just the cost of water, blowing out other oxygen production systems and early ways of deleting heat. Aquatuners being the first, and only, building you can reliably use to do heat management in most cases is also silly. This is because the thermoregulator is ultimately rather pointless when both heat pump buildings operate by reducing the coolant by a set number of degrees without regard to packet size or SHC of the coolant.

[greydaze]

39 minutes ago, cblack said:

I'm using the ATs to vacuum up heat from around the map and consolidate it below the turbines.

Add the turbine room itself to the tail end of your coolant loop and it should run smoothly, as long as your coolant isn't too hot for the the turbine that is. That's whats cool about the steam turbine, yes it generates a lot of heat, but it removes more heat than it generates.

[cblack]

18 minutes ago, greydaze said:

Add the turbine room itself to the tail end of your coolant loop and it should run smoothly, as long as your coolant isn't too hot for the the turbine that is. That's whats cool about the steam turbine, yes it generates a lot of heat, but it removes more heat than it generates.

I'll have to wait until I have super coolant to do this, as right now PW comes back over 100C (and sometimes still boils in the pipes ).  The main advantage with self cooling directly from its output is you know exactly what temperature the water will be.

I'll mess around with it a bit more, but I think if I shorten the cooling loop, and send it initially through the turbine, I might be able to make it work.

[nakomaru]

10 hours ago, cblack said:

I cannot get mine to even sink the heat from a single aquatuner with PW.

Those calculations are of the capabilities of the machines. If you design a system so the turbine stops working, I don't consider that the machine's fault.

Designs like the ones linked will let you run about 2.6 steel tuners on water in a 320C steam room. (What I referred to as a steel tuner's limit.)

The first example shows 2 tuners and a gold volcano. It will chew though the heat even at full capacity of all three. Hope this is enough proof for you.

https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/109211-how-do-you-guys-cool-your-metal-down/?do=findComment&comment=1230442

[cblack]

Alright, I've managed to get it working by immediately sending the output of one of the ATs through to chill the turbine before it goes anywhere else.  This has several disadvantages:

• A hotter floor for chilled liquid output on one of the ATs.
• Higher power cost per BTU deleted (I think, I'd have to do some more math to be sure).
• Possibly less space efficient, but likely depends on how you're generating power.

But the advantage is you can delete a lot more heat with a single turbine.  I ended up spending an insane amount of time redesigning my closed-loop liquid cooling system from the ground up, and it's actually got some pretty cool features now.  Namely:

• Won't get backed up even if your cooling loop breaks (e.g. from boiling fluid breaking a pipe).  Instead, chilled fluid is buffered until the loop is restored.
• Provides steam for steam rockets or whatever else at 1Kg/s, so long as it has enough water, power, and heat from external sources.
• Water for steam can be provided easily without breaking the recirculation from the turbine.
• Components won't overheat, and it will never overcool (i.e. freeze) the coolant, so long as you set the automation values correctly.
• Never leaves idle coolent in the same tile as steam, as long as power isn't lost and you don't exceed the heat deletion capabilities of the turbine.
• Can operate with zero (as discharging/idle thermal battery), one, or two ATs running.
• Coolant temperature can be controlled to within +/- 7C of your target temperature (as long as it's at least 7C above its freezing point) on the second AT.
• Will run ATs at 100% duty cycle assuming you have enough heat injected in your loop, enough power, and don't exceed the cooling provided by the turbine.
• Everything configurable via automation.

You can challenge yourself to create one, or I can post details on mine for the curious.

[nakomaru]

Quote

Thanks for the help.

No problem.

[Xenologist]

On 8/11/2019 at 8:42 PM, PhailRaptor said:

  So you are, quite literally, pulling Phosphorite out of thin air. 

Don't you mean thin chlorine, as they are the only chlorine-only air plant.