Insulation Flaking

[0xFADE]

A few months back this happened to me and I reported it as a bug but it is still around so have fun.

When you bring a gas up above the liquidation temperature of an insulation tile instead of it melting it just flakes off 5kg worth of igneous rock.  This very quickly breaks off large amounts of rock pieces from the insulation but doesn't damage the insulation at all.  It also cools down the gas.

I had made insulation tiles out of sedimentary rock since I didn't have any other use for it.  What else does sedimentary rock have?  A lower than normal melting point.  This meant that it wasn't all that hard for the steam or whatever to get to that temperature.

Appears that after enough time the tile does disappear.  The mass of the tile is not updated in the properties tab.

You can do this with Granite as well.  Which means you only need to bring the temp above ~700c to do this.

[mathmanican]

Mwahahahahahahaha!!!!!!!  Duplication of solid materials.  Infinite magma and all kinds of other cool stuff. Oh boy.  Not gonna sleep tonight. 

I suppose this is directly related to the metal cannon. 

Edit: After tests, it appears this is NOT the metal cannon, rather it's just that the properties tab doesn't correctly reflect the flaked off insulation. The insulation actually does flake off, and once the entire mass flakes off, the tile disappears.

New Edit - Flaking and the metal cannon are the same principle. However, metal doors don't disappear when they have flaked off their total mass, rather they reset their mass with each interaction.  Insulation tiles disappear if they flake off their entire mass in one save, but reset on save/load.  Current hypothesis. Might change.

[0xFADE]

Looking at the metal cannon it is probably the exact same thing since a metal tile will melt in to that metal.  It is just way under the melting point of the igneous in this instance.

Ah, it is the door that is making the metal.

[Lilalaunekuh]

10 hours ago, 0xFADE said:

This very quickly breaks off large amounts of rock pieces from the insulation but doesn't damage the insulation at all.  It also cools down the gas.

I discovered something similiar since I started messing with solid fuel thrusters.

=>My rocket launching above bunker tiles will result in small multiple 5kg packets of steel without damaging anything

(My rocket needs no fuel, produces Steam/Water and CO2, carries a cargo bay and produces steel ^^)

Did I mention the 7 sight seeing modules ?

[0xFADE]

Just now, Lilalaunekuh said:

I discovered something similiar since I started messing with solid fuel thrusters.

=>My rocket launching above bunker tiles will result in small multiple 5kg packets of steel without damaging anything

(My rocket needs no fuel, produces Steam/Water and CO2, carries a cargo bay and produces steel ^^)

Nice.

[mathmanican]

1 hour ago, Lilalaunekuh said:

and produces steel

Sorry @0xFADE, I think @Lilalaunekuh's steel production is more exciting than that granite.... Time to switch plans.  

@Oozinator, we might have a reason to build a rocket, namely to exploit this like mad. (we don't) I'll see if I can do it without a rocket first (haven't made one yet). I think a steam turbine used to heat stuff up ( recall @Saturnus' regolator ) will easily get chlorine to the needed temp to flake off steel. Can I get a steady flow of >10kg? Gonna try.  

My very own personal steel volcano that I'll put next to my homemade water geyser. Oh boy. I'm actually really excited.  Was gonna take a nap, but can't now.

 

[0xFADE]

Yeah steel does steal the show.

Trying to do steel will require some good extreme heat generation.

Steel is at 2426, you'll need to make stuff out of obsidian which is at 2726 or just Tungsten at 3421.  Niobium is at 2476 so you can make more of that too.

[mathmanican]

Well, initial tests are not showing any promise on solid duplication. YAY!, there might not be bug that needs fixing.  Once you flake off 20 chunks of steel, the tile disappears. All the metals do this this. Gold went down first, copper next. This does mean that your silo walls may one day disappear if not monitored. That's a bug in and of itself, but not as exploitive. I'll be checking insulated tiles next to see if I can melt off 400kg. 

The "properties" tab does not show this at all. The properties say the tile has 100kg all the way until it disappears. Ouch.  No warning.

And..... the tests are done. Solid duplication does NOT happen.  Instead, the name "flaking off" is correct. The problem is that the properties tab does not correctly reflect the current mass of the tile.  This is probably to simplify heat calculations. Once 400 kg flake off, the tile disappears. Beware of flaking, as it accounts for magically disappearing tiles. It would be interesting to know if a save/reload resets the count, but all kinds of weird things happen on save/reload. (Edit: Save/reload does reset the counter, and doors don't vanish when fully flaked and reset their mass upon each open/close toggle - the metal cannon.)

All that adrenaline....  Now I'm not tired.

[tzionut]

Quote

Steel is at 2426, you'll need to make stuff out of obsidian which is at 2726 or just Tungsten at 3421.  Niobium is at 2476 so you can make more of that too

the best are the diamonds as a glass tile

[Lilalaunekuh]

8 hours ago, mathmanican said:

Once 400 kg flake off, the tile disappears. Beware of flaking, as it accounts for magically disappearing tiles. It would be interesting to know if a save/reload resets the count, but all kinds of weird things happen on save/reload. 

Hmm just want to add two things:

1. I use bunker tiles and I never saw a tile vanish. (I start 4 rockets in parallel^^).

2. I never did more than a couple launches each save/reload cycle (Never more than 4)

 

=> If I just need to flake of 100kg of steel, I would assume that more than one tile should have vanished.

(An average launch creates maybe 20-100kg of steel for me.)

 

Spoiler

I think after a save/reload cycle each tile starts with the full mass again.

But that´s just how I try to explain my observations.

 

[mathmanican]

3 hours ago, Lilalaunekuh said:

1. I use bunker tiles and I never saw a tile vanish. (I start 4 rockets in parallel^^).

2. I never did more than a couple launches each save/reload cycle (Never more than 4)

Thanks for the post.  I went back and did more testing.

• Confirmed that a save/reload resets the counter. So if you only do a few launches per save, you will magically create steel (or any other metal) with both metal and bunker tiles. 
• I also looked into bunker DOORS, and it is the metal cannon.  The door will release 500kg of liquid with each open/close toggle (doesn't even have to have power, rather just needs to be toggled), so you can mass produce steel. If you don't toggle it, then after 500kg it stops flaking. 

So it looks like metal flaking and the metal cannon are the same principle, with one difference.  Metal doors don't disappear after flaking off their mass. Instead, they persist as mass less object that takes up space, and then upon interaction they suddenly regain their mass. 

Fun times. Glad I went back. Thanks @Lilalaunekuh.

[Lilalaunekuh]

19 minutes ago, mathmanican said:

Metal doors don't disappear after flaking off their mass. Instead, they persist as mass less object that takes up space

So do they stop conducting heat ? (Could be used to have an automation signal when all the mass "flaked out".)

 

Need to find out if I can use wolframite doors without really melting them^^

=> Renewable tungsten here I come (, but having save/reload cycle based output feels so wrong ...)

[mathmanican]

3 hours ago, Lilalaunekuh said:

Renewable tungsten here I come (, but having save/reload cycle based output feels so wrong ...)

My plans tonight are to build a complete alchemy factory, that produces every metal, at a controllable rate, and does not require save/reload. I'd like it all automated, with cooling built in to get the metal out when finished.    After I get a prototype and proof-of-concept, I'm sure @Saturnus will help refine it and perfect it. Whatever you discover today, please post. It's always fun to work on these crazy things with others. 

Here comes a multi-metal, fully controllable, volcano, that can be build in survival (current plan for heat is the metal refinery). Of course, the entire plan could fail. 

[Lilalaunekuh]

3 minutes ago, mathmanican said:

Whatever you discover today, please post. It's always fun to work on these crazy things with others. 

Here comes a multi-metal, fully controllable, volcano, that can be build in survival (current plan for heat is the metal refinery). Of course, the entire plan could fail. 

That´s the best part of the game, finding something odd and building something totally ridiculous out of it

(But I can´t really play this weekend, so my results might come to late if you want to build it tonight^^)

[mathmanican]

1 minute ago, Lilalaunekuh said:

(But I can´t really play this weekend, so if you my results might come to late^^)

I might get swamped as well, so who knows.  This is currently an exciting project, so I might find a way to squeeze in time.  I'll add updates at each stage when things go well, and then make a new post when I finally get the last piece in place. 

Someday soon, when the excitement dies down, I plan to fully build your garden.  I currently look at is as my dream food source. Just haven't taken the time to build it yet (too many other crazy contraptions). 

[0xFADE]

Oh good. I had come to the same conclusion about what doors might be doing but didn’t comment on it.

You can make regular doors out of steel too. So you don’t need to use bunker doors. 

[Lilalaunekuh]

1 hour ago, mathmanican said:

Someday soon, when the excitement dies down, I plan to fully build your garden.  I currently look at is as my dream food source. Just haven't taken the time to build it yet (too many other crazy contraptions). 

I think you like efficiency ?

Just wait a bit till I can upload my perfect water efficiency farm (maybe I try it for sleet wheat too ^^)

My old farm was a farm I build with other things in mind and just modified.

=> We are talking about something like 2-3 times the current size per plant ... (for sleet wheat we need even more space)

 

Spoiler

Since it might take a bit till I upload my farm, here some information and the idea:

I want to use 12 pipe segments and a shut off valve to feed every plant just 120kg of water.

(But I think there could be some problems attached, since I had some plants not fully grow when I saved/reloaded my game.

All plants reached at least 99%, so I would hate to give my build some disclaimer like works if you don´t reload more than X times while the plant is growing.)

 

=> Even my current farm got a limitation on save/reload cycles

(But I didn´t entcounter it after changing my filter gates again to provide more water each grow cycle.)

 

[mathmanican]

15 hours ago, Lilalaunekuh said:

So do they stop conducting heat ? (Could be used to have an automation signal when all the mass "flaked out".)

YEP! They basically don't exist (gas and liquids flow right through, their listed temp is 0K in vacuum, etc.)

Had fun doing lots of tests. Below you'll see every metal that you can build a door out of (that you can find in game). Each setup has a row of 200kg steam above it (I spawn it in at 3100K - easily obtainable with a metal refinery and liquid steel in the pipes). Under that is a row of diamond tiles. The door region in each section consists of 3 wolframite doors (the top door and two side doors - to help conduct heat faster - steel won't heat up enough with only the top middle door, or just diamond, touching it). I avoid tempshift plates on purpose (more later). The bottom middle door in each setup is made of the corresponding metal.

Here's a few facts that I've discovered while tackling this problem in the way shown above (I'm gonna test heating from below and from the side still).

1. When the door hits melting temp, the mass liquefies and falls. There is a very slight exchange of temp on the downward fall, but very little.  The pools of metal you see above are essentially at the melting points, despite each melting area being near 3100K. 
2. The door, after melting, no longer exists. It's temp is 0 K (absolute zero). Other liquids and gasses flow through it (and the temp of the door matches the temp of things moving through it, probably because it has zero mass). This is why I have diamond window tiles above the door setup, to keep the steam from spilling in.
3. Tempshift plates no longer interact with the door once it has dropped its mass.  Essentially, the door no longer exists.  I bet a dupe could even walk through it, but I haven't tried this yet.
4. When you order the door to open, a new 400kg blob of metal appears at 242.2K (the default temp of each metal).
5. While opening, heat exchanges with surrounding tiles in a wonky way, if the region is still connected to tiles that can exchange heat. Significant savings in heat loss (30%-90% savings, based on metal) are made if you first disconnect the door from the environment (open the 3 surrounding wolframite doors), open and close the  lower metal door, and then reconnect to the environment (close the 3 wolframite doors). This is true with 1 exception, thermium.
6. Thermium does NOT drop thermium.  It drops chunks of tungsten (no cooling needed) and a tiny bit of niobium. With all other metals, the disconnect/open/close/reconnect pattern is the best option.  With tungsten, the pattern, disconnect/open/reconnect/close, causes the chunks of tungsten, and tiny bits of niobium, to drop BEFORE the gold liquid drops, and the door hits 0 K.  The least amount of heat is required to produce tungsten - the one with the highest melting point, and should require the MOST heat.  I can mass produce tungsten FASTER than I can mass produce gold. CRAZY!  @Saturnus, this might be enough of a proof of concept to get you in game.   If not, I'll keep going till you can't resist. There is a gold mine to explore here (figuratively, and literally). 
7. Because of the wonky temperature exchange while doors are opening, tempshift plates are a bad idea, if they touch the melting door.  They exacerbate the wonky heating, and cause you to loose more heat. They may have other good uses that I have not explored yet (especially with this new thermium find). 

@Lilalaunekuh, if you're happy with having only tungsten as your metal of choice, then I've got enough here to make a factory that mass produces this metal. This does require that you make enough trips to space to make a single door out of thermium (so find niobium once, and then use the rock crusher to get as much as you need). @Oozinator, this might be a reason to go to space, at least once. Then build this contraption and mass produce tungsten.  @0xFADE, I think you'll have fun playing with this.  We'll need  a good constant supply of 3100K molten steel (I'm envisioning a liquid reservior filled with molten steel, fed into with a metal refinery, all on a closed loop). 

Maybe the first new massive exploit should be a tungsten volcano. It spits out tungsten in chunks at 2950ish K, rather than liquid. No cooling needed, and ready instantly for building 45C objects. Best volcano ever, as everything comes pre-cooled.   Happy tinkering.  Hope I haven't ruined anyone's weekend while they go down a rabbit hole.

 

 

[0xFADE]

It is quite a good rabbit hole to go down.

[mathmanican]

14 minutes ago, 0xFADE said:

It is quite a good rabbit hole to go down.

Guaranteed precious metals. Yeah, definitely worth it.

[Oozinator]

On 15.3.2019 at 2:03 AM, mathmanican said:

Edit: After tests, it appears this is NOT the metal cannon, rather it's just that the properties tab doesn't correctly reflect the flaked off insulation. The insulation actually does flake off, and once the entire mass flakes off, the tile disappears.

Do you get a fresh 400kg material "pack" back, everytime you open the door?

[mathmanican]

7 hours ago, Oozinator said:

Do you get a fresh 400kg material "pack" back, everytime you open the door?

Yep.  It's like Christmas.

[Oozinator]

30 minutes ago, mathmanican said:

Yep.  It's like Christmas.

I would love, when that would work, with real doors.

[mathmanican]

New tests done, this time trying to melt the doors from below. The doors release their 400kg gift, but the new gifted liquid continues to increase in temp.  Upon opening/closing the door, the door actually disappears. The final content in each region is 800kg, matter duplication.

I'm pretty sure that liquid duplication and the metal cannon are the exact same bug. However, the metal cannon employs one extra bug, namely that doors don't disappear under some conditions. The door seems to disappear if you get liquid or gas inside the door region that exceeds the melting point (and drops another payload, of course).This happens in any position, including the "melt from above" position. Keep things vacuum, and you get free gifts with every open/close in this position.

@Oozinator, we're gonna need some of those hats you've got to show up on all these extra gifts. 

 

 

[Oozinator]

11 minutes ago, mathmanican said:

 

@Oozinator, we're gonna need some of those hats you've got to show up on all these extra gifts.

Free hats for all!