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The ai is programmed to work a certain way.  Bees flying over walls only if they are fully enclosed is that way because that is how it is programmed to be ;)  I don't think I can get on board that it is somehow a bug to exploit this.  You may feel it breaks your immersion, but I think having different mobs interact with structures differently is proper for immersion, including that some are more prone to their effect than others.  Why have walls if there is no use for them?

Even if Klei reworked combat it would need to be a much larger re-work beyond scaling health / adds based on player count.  We'd need combat more like the forge, allowing multiple approaches within combat to really justify limiting non-combat methods of winning... but even then... do we really want to remove non-combat methods of winning?  I'm pretty sure one of the main draws of minecraft is the systems you can create that automate what is normally a grind.  If anything DST could probably use MORE options to automate the little things so we can escape the grind as we progress in the game.

I'd like to see: Ways to cook more things at once, both in simply getting the cooked versions of foods and cooking crock pot recipes.  Ways to control / delay hound attacks similar to the way Antlion is manipulated.  Ways to alleviate the negative effects of cold / hot for an extended period, like a clothing item that actually prevents ambient freezing / overheating, or a super thermal stone that stays warm or cold for 5 days or so.  Animal husbandry that allows to you relocate and create herds for beefalo, goats, koalafants, and grass gekkos.  Better pets that actually do things if we keep them fed.  Give us more things!  Especially things that let us escape the tedious parts of the game that get in the way every time we want to go do a fun part of the game.  Now if all of these things were done so that I could go enjoy a boss fight without thinking "what if hounds spawn" or "how many heat stones do I have to bundle wrap" maybe I'd be more on board with making bosses overcome non-combat methods of winning...  but there is a lot that needs to be added before I'd support taking anything away.

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Just remove walls and then remove game its self problems fixed. If you feel bad about walls not use them, if another players uses them, just don't go upset about this just take deep breath and move on. Why you individuals want force play game by your own standards?

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10 hours ago, Shosuko said:

The ai is programmed to work a certain way.  Bees flying over walls only if they are fully enclosed is that way because that is how it is programmed to be ;)  I don't think I can get on board that it is somehow a bug to exploit this.  You may feel it breaks your immersion, but I think having different mobs interact with structures differently is proper for immersion, including that some are more prone to their effect than others.  Why have walls if there is no use for them?

Even if Klei reworked combat it would need to be a much larger re-work beyond scaling health / adds based on player count.  We'd need combat more like the forge, allowing multiple approaches within combat to really justify limiting non-combat methods of winning... but even then... do we really want to remove non-combat methods of winning?  I'm pretty sure one of the main draws of minecraft is the systems you can create that automate what is normally a grind.  If anything DST could probably use MORE options to automate the little things so we can escape the grind as we progress in the game.

I'd like to see: Ways to cook more things at once, both in simply getting the cooked versions of foods and cooking crock pot recipes.  Ways to control / delay hound attacks similar to the way Antlion is manipulated.  Ways to alleviate the negative effects of cold / hot for an extended period, like a clothing item that actually prevents ambient freezing / overheating, or a super thermal stone that stays warm or cold for 5 days or so.  Animal husbandry that allows to you relocate and create herds for beefalo, goats, koalafants, and grass gekkos.  Better pets that actually do things if we keep them fed.  Give us more things!  Especially things that let us escape the tedious parts of the game that get in the way every time we want to go do a fun part of the game.  Now if all of these things were done so that I could go enjoy a boss fight without thinking "what if hounds spawn" or "how many heat stones do I have to bundle wrap" maybe I'd be more on board with making bosses overcome non-combat methods of winning...  but there is a lot that needs to be added before I'd support taking anything away.

I agree with the premise of this; I've been asking for addition of some Forge mechanics, too. And Gorge, for that matter. Variety. More ways to do things. But well thought out ways.
There are in fact other ways of managing these issues. The hounds, for instance; remember the Whistle from Year of the Varg? Some variant of that would be awesome. Bees? Bug spray! Make the Grumble Bees get briefly stunned when entering an area, so you can take down the Queen reasonably. The noxious cloud can work like a more easily obtainable Nap Sack; again, based on already-existing content, and thereby not that hard to implement.

I feel like there's a bit of confusion on my goal. I'm not calling for everyone to be an MLG god that masters STRONK COMBAT. I don't even really care about balance that much.
I just want gameplay to feel sensible and well-thought-out.
Again, the issue with walls isn't walls existing. The issue is that, when they're combined with weird but easily creatable conditions, they function as something else entirely.

I love cave bases. It's cozy down there. They're what I typically do when I intend to play a world for a decent amount of time.
...Depth Worms might as well not exist. Like Hounds, with the placement of one boulder, statue, stalagmite, building, or similar items that you can very easily access from the start of the game, Depth Worms completely stop functioning...making them wasted content. 'Depth Worm Attacks' become an occasional grumble at the front gate; use the other gate, and it's like they never existed.
It makes no sense from a game design standpoint to have a threat that shows itself like that, but...doesn't even have to be glanced at.
You could just not use the exploit that makes the AI stop functioning...but that would be ignoring an easily obtainable advantage that completely removes all thought of a threat. Hard to ignore.
What about some form of worm bait, instead? For instance, using Lesser Glow Berries to lure them into emerging onto traps.
Something like that would feel less like an exploit, and more like a mechanic; at the very least, it's better than what we have now. It would make the Worms feel like part of an ecosystem that the characters learn and become the master of.

 

It's possible to approach this stuff. Anything mentioned here, I came up with while typing, and none of the mentioned solutions would be complex; it's all reusing already-existing parts of the game to replace behavior that feels unintended with design. Heck, I came up with those examples while typing this out.


Since we're bringing up Minecraft...one of the best updates imo, that made the game feel alive, was when they finally did some work on the AIs; mobs started attacking eachother, and interacting with one-another and the world rather than just the player. Now they even interact with specific blocks/items, and there are all sorts of mechanics that have been designed around it. They get around obstacles that they can reasonably get around (other than the occasional bug similar to DST's current wall/structure combination issue, which does get addressed pretty regularly in MC), but they can still be manipulated.
A bit of that logic would go a long way in DST. Mobs having their own behavior independent of the players existence, that we can take advantage of. Like the above mentioned examples for the Worms, the Bees, and the Dogs That Want To Kill You.

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Left unattended in an area still close enough to player so they aren't paused, Worms "eat" (stock inside them) randomly pretty much anything: I had one eating my Bearger statue and another time a boulder. Was pretty funny as they are affected by the slow-moving when having said things "equipped" similarly to how players are. If that isn't weird and breaking much-mentioned immersion, again, nothing is. And if you wanna exploit the spawning of Worms, simple: just go on a very thin and long-ish bridge between biomes when the announcement growling is played - you will spawn a minimal number of them (1-2) even late game or none at all. As stated, for anything in the game there are works-around; and that's good from my perspective, keeps your interest in finding new sneaky ways in dealing with day-to-day events and more. If I was akin a purist fighting junky and pretty much only that (as eliminating all exploitable elements - farming ones included like baiting pigs/rabbits/lobsters - of the game and making it harder, aka "forced perpetual scarcity", would pretty much make mega-bases/nice developed bases superfluous or way too difficult to matter), I would probably be at the impasse one of my Steam friends is at this very moment after only 200h of play: he did all bosses multiple times mastering kiting, and now got bored of the game - he isn't into base building.

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1 hour ago, lifetheuniverse said:

I agree with the premise of this; I've been asking for addition of some Forge mechanics, too. And Gorge, for that matter. Variety. More ways to do things. But well thought out ways.
There are in fact other ways of managing these issues. The hounds, for instance; remember the Whistle from Year of the Varg? Some variant of that would be awesome. Bees? Bug spray! Make the Grumble Bees get briefly stunned when entering an area, so you can take down the Queen reasonably. The noxious cloud can work like a more easily obtainable Nap Sack; again, based on already-existing content, and thereby not that hard to implement.

I feel like there's a bit of confusion on my goal. I'm not calling for everyone to be an MLG god that masters STRONK COMBAT. I don't even really care about balance that much.
I just want gameplay to feel sensible and well-thought-out.
Again, the issue with walls isn't walls existing. The issue is that, when they're combined with weird but easily creatable conditions, they function as something else entirely.

At the very least you've found the right argument, but I'm still not convinced. All your suggestions would work as alternative solutions to dealing with enemies but they're very one-note and they'd be handed to you by the game. If Klei just gives us the solution to the problem then there's no creativity and the game is just about knowing which X counters which Y. Your solutions might be nice for casual players or during the early game, but lots of pathing strats are useful late-game not just for guaranteed survival but for a feeling of progress. Players need to feel like they can conquer things in DST otherwise the end-game is just tedious resource gathering, followed by a fight or crisis, followed by more tedious resource gathering.

I know it's a survival game and the aim is to just survive but merely existing isn't a happy state for most people, we need to be able to thrive, to win. Beating a boss for the 100th time doesn't give you the same satisfaction as the first time you did it, but finding a way to beat it more efficiently feels like a whole new victory. I would never fight for something in the game that makes it impossible to lose but pathing strats don't ensure your survival, they just make some bits of it more bearable long-term. There's a reason people always find a way to do stuff like this. Burnt trees, then end table walls and now statues all because a lot of us want a better option than the games default walls, the default walls which are just another resource sink.

If Klei were to improve the AI or remove collision from structures that would have to go hand in hand (to keep me happy at least) with a massive update that added in some ways for us to build our own solutions to problems. Since minecraft was brought up I'm talking something comparable to redstone. Obviously not that in depth, but something along those lines. And whilst I would be for that should it happen, the more likely outcome is that Klei just fixes something perceived by the community as an exploit and I and others lose a part of the game that we enjoy. Lots of people here also might not feel like pathing strats are intended, but I've got to believe that Klei knows how simple their AI is and what they were doing when giving structures that could be placed close together collision.

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Do you know how challenging Dragonfly and Beequeen would be if you actually had to fight the lavae/grumble bees respectively at the same time? It would be insanely difficult to solo these bosses unless you were wolfgang, and still then, it'd be one of the hardest challenges around. Using walls has made these bosses actually manageable.

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8 hours ago, Bird Up said:

Do you know how challenging Dragonfly and Beequeen would be if you actually had to fight the lavae/grumble bees respectively at the same time? It would be insanely difficult to solo these bosses unless you were wolfgang, and still then, it'd be one of the hardest challenges around. Using walls has made these bosses actually manageable.

it's almost like dont starve together is a coop game

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19 hours ago, D7X said:

If Klei were to improve the AI or remove collision from structures that would have to go hand in hand (to keep me happy at least) with a massive update that added in some ways for us to build our own solutions to problems. Since minecraft was brought up I'm talking something comparable to redstone. Obviously not that in depth, but something along those lines. And whilst I would be for that should it happen, the more likely outcome is that Klei just fixes something perceived by the community as an exploit and I and others lose a part of the game that we enjoy. Lots of people here also might not feel like pathing strats are intended, but I've got to believe that Klei knows how simple their AI is and what they were doing when giving structures that could be placed close together collision.

This is basically what should happen imo, but I agree that it...might not quite happen how we want. Seen how that plays out with Characters in the past .-.
I guess it really comes down to the newly announced character updates. What they present, and how much they help or harm our image of Klei's capability/care in doing these kinds of updates; in other words, how much dedication they'd put into 'game health' updates.. I totally agree that just ripping out the current mechanics without proper compensation wouldn't go well.
I also like that idea of limited machinery or similar; we have gears, after all, and they're renewable in multiple ways now.

And yea, I also agree on the point of solo players. Not everyone has friends that are into the game or fun to play with, so it'd be good if it remained possible for solo players to access the games content. Personally, I wander public servers looking for interesting events and play as a resourceful drifter, and usually play alone if I'm going for a long-term playthrough. Wouldn't want to shoot myself in the foot, so to speak, by making that impossible or boring.

 

The above mentioned concepts with items and such were just a starting point. Remote controllable wall gates could be nice, it feels like there's intention behind stuff like that.
I'd have the Bug Spray put regular/Killer bees to sleep; multiple uses, convenience when obtaining hives or farming honey, something pretty central to most players games. And I can think of another use in my YES THE BEES runs with Abigail.
The thing with Glow Berries was an extension of the Worms' current behavior, really. They already eat planted ones, but I've only seen it when entering an area; they instantly aggro. Having a stronger attraction to them like Hounds to food would create more usage cases.
I only mentioned single-use, this vs this scenarios at first because they were the most relevant.

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6 hours ago, __IvoCZE__ said:

It's like you have friends.

not trying to be rude but I dont.

Even when you do have friends the odds of them actually being interested in Don't Starve is pretty low in the scope of everything available now. I can convince some friends to buy BlackOps 4 or BeatSaber, but when you're 28 Don't starve is a hard sell. 

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On 1/25/2019 at 9:31 AM, x0VERSUS1y said:

You all seem to only fixate on the wall strat for Dragon. Lemme crash your wall-nerf dreams present you some trusty lil "cheese" friends also doing their jobs as intended... in hands of "entrepreneurial" players:

ice_staffice_flingomatic

Also "working as intended" for Bee Queen.

And not to gloss-over this beauty:

walking_on_sea

..aka walking on Sea/Abyss to "cheese"... pretty much anything.

And, oh, in all above no "ez op" walls required ;)

 

What I want to point with these is "cheese" aka fun and ingenious ways of using game mechanics in taking down foes or making efficient farms is part of DST charm, the plethora of ways you can go about something, each time different. If not for these but always use of the only straightforward default way of "dealing with stuff" at least for me DST would've been long gone into my personal history of "games I've played at some point and got bored with/forgot about".

 

Also don't omit another important aspect of "the bragging try-hard legends" out there that mushed day 2 Dragonfly per example with only 1 Ham Bat, no walls, no strat beside "killing last larvae at the right moment": digging in game's code for mobs patterns of attack and other exploitable quirks. If that isn't the ultimate "cheesing" frankly nothing is.

I do it because it's fun and it takes some level of skill to pull off with the little amount of gear used. If you want to classify methods like mine as cheese, sure, but it doesn't take 30 days to gather the equipment and that's what matters to me. Also you act like digging into the code patterns immediately magically gives you a winning strategy. The reason I dug into the dragonfly code is because it's LITERALLY BUGGED.

Ultimately though, it's fun to push the bounds of the game and the game is open ended enough to allow you to do things like this. Even though the boss is bugged I wouldn't have the boss any other way since it adds depth that would not be there if it was removed (Though there is a way to fix it without the code being deceptive but maybe that was the intention however I doubt that). Coming up with strategies is the entire fun of this game for me. I don't like speedruns and I've grinded for gear so much on public survival servers that it just isn't fun anymore. The new fun of the game when I made this stuff was exploring how to be as minimalistic and efficient as possible. You have to admit it's pretty hilarious to see a boss that stumps so many people be taken down with some berries a hambat and a sleep flute.

Whether or not you were referring to me these points are what I believe and how I believe other similar people feel.

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On ‎31‎.‎01‎.‎2019 at 1:24 AM, NSAiswatchingus said:

Even when you do have friends the odds of them actually being interested in Don't Starve is pretty low in the scope of everything available now. I can convince some friends to buy BlackOps 4 or BeatSaber, but when you're 28 Don't starve is a hard sell. 

Really? I usually have a harder time convincing or getting convinced to first person shooters that take themselves too seriosly like Call of Duty or Counter Strike than the more lighearted survival, coop or strategic games like Don't Starve, Civilization V or Town of Salem. Guess it differs according to who is around you. I don't have many cadre gaming friends so instead we have fun going with interesting casual games. I hate the highly competitive game scene and probably ended up with people who share my attitude towards games, they'd make fun of Black Ops for being a teen game.

On ‎30‎.‎01‎.‎2019 at 6:34 PM, __IvoCZE__ said:

It's like you have friends.

not trying to be rude but I dont.

 

That's not a valid reason not to play a multiplayer game with others in my opinion. It's an online multiplayer game rather than a LAN multiplayer game for that exact reason, go join other servers if you enjoy the initial surival phase of the game like me. If growing mega bases, living long and accoplishing raids is your fun go join the discord servers that do periodic long term gaming. Many don't play an online games because they have friends to play, but because the online connection is the fun they saught. You can even end up with some friends as a result of playing it. At least come join the Diverse Survivors if you haven't yet. Personally Plants vs. Zombies Garden Warfare 1 and Mario Strikers Charged Football still stand to be some of my favorite online games to this date despite having no friends thad had them but playing them online.

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On 2/18/2019 at 3:15 PM, SinancoTheBest said:

[snip]

Man, this. Over the years I've learned to love those moments doing extraordinary things with random clown fiesta teams in games. It can be hard to pull off, but...part of the beauty of not knowing who you're playing with is being able to screw up and likely not be recognized the next time you see them, hah. You can just keep trying things out and teaching people the game until you reach that exciting part where you manage to do something awesome with, and show something awesome to, people who've barely even played the game before.
Big part of why I play a lot of 'resourceful nomad' games. If I can show people something cool that they might not have thought of before, it's pretty satisfying. And if getting a little guidance keeps them playing the game longer? It's a win for me when I'm looking for players another day, and for the community as a whole.

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