Gwido Posted September 8, 2018 Share Posted September 8, 2018 I just think about something. How could we make a 1000 g mush bar with 75 kg of dirt and 75 Kg of water without any waste ? O_o The microbe musher should produce around 149 Kg of something. Because it's a mix of water and dirt, and we already extract "mushes", it should not be slime. But why not something like cement, to build the base panel ? If it not produce waste, by application of stoichiometry in a game that has a scientific base, it should produce mush bars of 150 Kg. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/95308-wheres-the-stoichiometry-in-the-mush-bar/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
trukogre Posted September 8, 2018 Share Posted September 8, 2018 The fact that the fossil fuel generators don't use oxygen should have clued you in that this game has neither a scientific base nor any consistent commitment to stoichiometry. ONI is 'sciencey', like a good sci fi movie, not scientific, like your local University's physics department. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/95308-wheres-the-stoichiometry-in-the-mush-bar/#findComment-1082379 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gwido Posted September 8, 2018 Author Share Posted September 8, 2018 On the other hand, electrolizers produce amounts of oxygen and hydrogen relative to the mass in the water molecule, the algae distiller, fertilizer synthetizer and some others are stoichiometric systems, the recipe for steel is stoichiometric, gases separates according to their atomic masses, they also have freezing/evaporation/condensation points that are close to reallity, and other things like that... For sure, a game don't have to respect all the science formulas. But this one have a strong scientific base. And Here, I'm not talking about 1 Kg of mass coming from nowhere in a building that use 10 Kg of material. It's 149 Kg that completely disappears ! Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/95308-wheres-the-stoichiometry-in-the-mush-bar/#findComment-1082382 Share on other sites More sharing options...
he77789 Posted September 8, 2018 Share Posted September 8, 2018 Into a black hole. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/95308-wheres-the-stoichiometry-in-the-mush-bar/#findComment-1082386 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coolthulhu Posted September 8, 2018 Share Posted September 8, 2018 If mush bars were as heavy as their ingredients, one bar would fill the whole fridge. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/95308-wheres-the-stoichiometry-in-the-mush-bar/#findComment-1082390 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gwido Posted September 8, 2018 Author Share Posted September 8, 2018 44 minutes ago, Coolthulhu said: If mush bars were as heavy as their ingredients, one bar would fill the whole fridge. For sure. And it's not what I suggest This sentence was only a joke. 3 hours ago, Gwido said: If it not produce waste, by application of stoichiometry in a game that has a scientific base, it should produce mush bars of 150 Kg. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/95308-wheres-the-stoichiometry-in-the-mush-bar/#findComment-1082398 Share on other sites More sharing options...
D.L.S. Posted September 8, 2018 Share Posted September 8, 2018 Recipe is so simple that they balanced it with long preparation time and ingredients cost. But you mention right - there suppose to be wastes, most production lines should left some wastes, its realistic after all and will allow return lost mass like in this case. Maybe left sand and polluted water as wastes, but it could lead to some exploit. But this is not worst case of losing mass into nowhere, there is more: when mining tile half of its mass lost, so we talking about tons of lost mass, when you deconstruct something you lost half of ingredients(it is kind of balance, but i think it done wrong, when you deconstruct/break something you anyways should get some scrap/waste). So you can heat water to 99C and destroy it in microbe musher - sounds like exploit, might they'll fix it somehow, devs seems carry more about heat then mass. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/95308-wheres-the-stoichiometry-in-the-mush-bar/#findComment-1082446 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasza22 Posted September 8, 2018 Share Posted September 8, 2018 I`m ok with the musher leaving sand on the ground. What about algae deoxydizers. Aren`t those deleting mass? They could drop some dirt as a byproduct. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/95308-wheres-the-stoichiometry-in-the-mush-bar/#findComment-1082477 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gwido Posted September 8, 2018 Author Share Posted September 8, 2018 Not sand. We already have the crusher to transform materials into sand. But I think it would be great if the base panels need some cement to be constructed. And it will give a use for the musher all along the game, with some planning to get it. About the algae deoxydizer, it's just 50 g/s that disappear. I don't think it's really important. This loss of material is acceptable in the game balance, in my opinion. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/95308-wheres-the-stoichiometry-in-the-mush-bar/#findComment-1082503 Share on other sites More sharing options...
trukogre Posted September 8, 2018 Share Posted September 8, 2018 14 hours ago, Gwido said: On the other hand, electrolizers produce amounts of oxygen and hydrogen relative to the mass in the water molecule, the algae distiller, fertilizer synthetizer and some others are stoichiometric systems, the recipe for steel is stoichiometric, gases separates according to their atomic masses, they also have freezing/evaporation/condensation points that are close to reallity, and other things like that... For sure, a game don't have to respect all the science formulas. But this one have a strong scientific base. We seem to be disagreeing on what constitutes a base. To me, a strong scientific base would mean that every single reaction was stoichiometric, just for starters. When you have to pick and choose examples, that's a strong scientific decoration scheme. We're veering off into semantics here, but we were kinda already there, unfortunately. A core tenet of science is that experiments are replicable, i.e., it has to be true all the time, or it's not science. This is why I use the word 'sciencey', because science connotes trying for 100% consistency, e.g., 'The Martian', where the novel aimed for 100% stoichiometric correctness, full accord with science in every detail, etc. I don't know if I would even call ONI 'strongly sciencey', tbh, the duplicants work magically quickly, they breathe roughly 10,000 times as much oxygen per second as a human being does while being able to survive on dirt bars, generators don't consume oxygen, they use fake thermal units(and before the switch to fake thermal units machines could generate 4 million watts of heat from 960 watts of electricity, somehow), etc. It's more on 'kinda sciencey, kinda cartoonishly unrealistic'. It's a fun game, but let's not kid ourselves that using real numbers for a few thermal transition points makes a game scientific. p.s. gases separating out according to their atomic masses isn't scientific, it's sciencey...because gases don't separate out like that in reality, although the concentration might vary over distance. Also it's not quite right is it, the order is slightly off iirc. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/95308-wheres-the-stoichiometry-in-the-mush-bar/#findComment-1082559 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jadelink Posted September 19, 2018 Share Posted September 19, 2018 On 9/8/2018 at 3:08 PM, Gwido said: On the other hand, electrolizers produce amounts of oxygen and hydrogen relative to the mass in the water molecule, the algae distiller, fertilizer synthetizer and some others are stoichiometric systems, the recipe for steel is stoichiometric, gases separates according to their atomic masses, they also have freezing/evaporation/condensation points that are close to reallity, and other things like that... For sure, a game don't have to respect all the science formulas. But this one have a strong scientific base. And Here, I'm not talking about 1 Kg of mass coming from nowhere in a building that use 10 Kg of material. It's 149 Kg that completely disappears ! Ah yes, but we burn that hydrogen for energy, without using any o2 in the process, it just...vanishes into the void. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/95308-wheres-the-stoichiometry-in-the-mush-bar/#findComment-1085949 Share on other sites More sharing options...
mazeking Posted September 19, 2018 Share Posted September 19, 2018 Maybe a new item like "pollyted sand" that you should renew by some new building would fix that without adding a disbalance. And not only "mush bar" have this "problem" but any other bar. And water toilets, all animals, plants etc. Even dupes. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/95308-wheres-the-stoichiometry-in-the-mush-bar/#findComment-1085965 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasza22 Posted September 20, 2018 Share Posted September 20, 2018 On 8.09.2018 at 7:09 PM, Gwido said: Not sand. We already have the crusher to transform materials into sand. But I think it would be great if the base panels need some cement to be constructed. How about it producing clay. You could get some of it before breaching into the swamp biome and start your insulation stuff earlier. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/95308-wheres-the-stoichiometry-in-the-mush-bar/#findComment-1086115 Share on other sites More sharing options...
D.L.S. Posted September 20, 2018 Share Posted September 20, 2018 6 hours ago, Sasza22 said: How about it producing clay. You could get some of it before breaching into the swamp biome and start your insulation stuff earlier. Clay could work, dirt(soil, ground, earth or whatever it is where plants growing) consist of clay-sand mix as base with bunch of useful minerals and leftovers of carbon decomposing plants. so technically we can assume that microbe musher washed all useful stuff from dirt and left only clay(or sand, or both, or one of them on random). Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/95308-wheres-the-stoichiometry-in-the-mush-bar/#findComment-1086174 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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