Steve Raptor Posted August 31, 2018 Share Posted August 31, 2018 Hello, Its been bothering me a lot lately and I wanted to discuss about ranching pufts and the lack of any, straightforward, way to create PO2. As of now it is possible to create all the "core" gasses and liquids in the game: water, Pwater, hydrogen, NG, CO2, oxygen. This means that we have some machines that input something and output the stuff above. The only one that is out of this list is PO2. Now, the only feature in the game that relays solely on PO2 are pufts. The only source of generating PO2 in the game are morbs, geysers are RNG based. The balance around Pufts and PO2, in my opinion, is completely out of scale. A single puft consumes 30kg/cycle, this is a huge value, especially compared to amount of gasses vs liquid vs solid. E.g, hatch consume up to 140kg/cycle but it feels natural since solids come in tones. plants consume water in 10kg/cycle and it makes sense in proportion with typical liquid amount in a reservoir. For example, a tile in a liquid reservoir can hold 1T of water by normal means. A packet of gas can hold up to 20kg per tile, by normal means (no door pumps). Gasses are in completely different scale amount than liquids are. The amount of gasses vs liquid that machines output are also drastically different. Gasses are usually the ones with the lowest amounts, and 30kg/cycle is insane, even if you get lucky and have a PO2 geyser, its output amount is nowhere near enough to supply enough PO2 to keep more than 2 tamed pufts from starving. Considering a proper farm has a population of at least 8 pufts to generate any meaningful amount of slime, this means a minimum of 30*8=240kg/cycle of PO2...insane. So you are left with spamming an insane amount of morbs, sometimes via abusing game mechanics to sustain a puft farm, this feels completely out of place. I think Klei should introduce a machine that outputs PO2 and greatly reduce the consumption of PO2 by pufts to make ranching them possible by means that make sense and balance it out with the general amount of gas consumption and quantity in the game. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/95039-the-lack-of-po2-production-and-puft-ranching-is-out-of-balance/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yunru Posted August 31, 2018 Share Posted August 31, 2018 4 minutes ago, Steve Raptor said: I think Klei should introduce a machine that outputs PO2 They have, the liquid reservoir. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/95039-the-lack-of-po2-production-and-puft-ranching-is-out-of-balance/#findComment-1079619 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saturnus Posted August 31, 2018 Share Posted August 31, 2018 20 minutes ago, Steve Raptor said: I think Klei should introduce a machine that outputs PO2 Here you go. Pump in PW. PW sublimates into PO2 based on mass so the more PW you pump in the more PO2 is produced. You can easily have this producing 1000g/s PO2. There's also a slightly cheaty but more compact version where the vent is partly in oil so it doesn't block but that may or may not be patched. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/95039-the-lack-of-po2-production-and-puft-ranching-is-out-of-balance/#findComment-1079621 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neotuck Posted August 31, 2018 Share Posted August 31, 2018 13 minutes ago, Yunru said: They have, the liquid reservoir. I think the latest update pervents off gassing in reservoirs Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/95039-the-lack-of-po2-production-and-puft-ranching-is-out-of-balance/#findComment-1079623 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Raptor Posted August 31, 2018 Author Share Posted August 31, 2018 19 minutes ago, Yunru said: They have, the liquid reservoir. Off gassing produces a negligible amount of PO2...not sure how you can use it for anything. 11 minutes ago, Saturnus said: Here you go. Pump in PW. PW sublimates into PO2 based on mass so the more PW you pump in the more PO2 is produced. You can easily have this producing 1000g/s PO2. Tried something like that, It wasn't enough to produce positive PO2 gain for a single wild puft. Come on guys..you cant be serious suggesting off gassing is a good source of PO2...especially when a single puft consumes 30kg/cycle... I would gladly want to see a fully operational puft farm that run on off-gassing PW. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/95039-the-lack-of-po2-production-and-puft-ranching-is-out-of-balance/#findComment-1079624 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saturnus Posted August 31, 2018 Share Posted August 31, 2018 2 minutes ago, Steve Raptor said: Come on guys..you can be serious suggesting off gassing is a good source of PO2...especially when a single puft consumes 30kg/cycle... You know that 30kg/cycle is only 50g/s, right? My example above can easily produce 20 times that so that's 20 pufts supplied constantly. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/95039-the-lack-of-po2-production-and-puft-ranching-is-out-of-balance/#findComment-1079626 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argelle Posted August 31, 2018 Share Posted August 31, 2018 5 minutes ago, Steve Raptor said: I would gladly want to see a fully operational puft farm that run on off-gassing PW. here you go (but it's a bug, now fixed) Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/95039-the-lack-of-po2-production-and-puft-ranching-is-out-of-balance/#findComment-1079627 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Raptor Posted August 31, 2018 Author Share Posted August 31, 2018 1 minute ago, Saturnus said: You know that 30kg/cycle is only 50g/s, right? My example above can easily produce 20 times that so that's 20 pufts supplied constantly. Yeah, and that is for 1 puft. In my experience, I never got any reasonable amount of PO2 by using off-gassing. Do you have a puft farm that is sustained with this method, and can you post a picture of it? Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/95039-the-lack-of-po2-production-and-puft-ranching-is-out-of-balance/#findComment-1079628 Share on other sites More sharing options...
KittenIsAGeek Posted August 31, 2018 Share Posted August 31, 2018 25 minutes ago, Steve Raptor said: The only source of generating PO2 in the game are morbs, geysers are RNG based. Not accurate. You can generate PO2 from polluted water off-gassing. Which works pretty good, as long as you keep your pressures low. I've used it to sustain a couple farms of 6 pufts each with no problems. I have never farmed morbs for my PO2. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/95039-the-lack-of-po2-production-and-puft-ranching-is-out-of-balance/#findComment-1079629 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Raptor Posted August 31, 2018 Author Share Posted August 31, 2018 1 minute ago, KittenIsAGeek said: Not accurate. You can generate PO2 from polluted water off-gassing. Which works pretty good, as long as you keep your pressures low. I've used it to sustain a couple farms of 6 pufts each with no problems. I have never farmed morbs for my PO2. How many tiles/tones of PW do you need to produce enough off-gassing to support this amount of pufts? Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/95039-the-lack-of-po2-production-and-puft-ranching-is-out-of-balance/#findComment-1079630 Share on other sites More sharing options...
KittenIsAGeek Posted August 31, 2018 Share Posted August 31, 2018 I run the output from my nat gas generators (and petroleum generator) through a snake of gas permeable tiles before dropping into the reservoir. I keep the gas pressure below 500g/square and I always have plenty of PO2 to work with. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/95039-the-lack-of-po2-production-and-puft-ranching-is-out-of-balance/#findComment-1079632 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Raptor Posted August 31, 2018 Author Share Posted August 31, 2018 7 minutes ago, KittenIsAGeek said: I run the output from my nat gas generators (and petroleum generator) through a snake of gas permeable tiles before dropping into the reservoir. I keep the gas pressure below 500g/square and I always have plenty of PO2 to work with. Well, this is my previous failed attempt. Both pufts are wild, there are 100kg of PW in each tile. The air pressure is very, very low, around 2g per tile, since they consumed all the PO2 from the air. For some reason the pool doesn't off gas, is the amount of PW too low? Am I missing anything in this design? Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/95039-the-lack-of-po2-production-and-puft-ranching-is-out-of-balance/#findComment-1079634 Share on other sites More sharing options...
KittenIsAGeek Posted August 31, 2018 Share Posted August 31, 2018 Not enough surface area. You only have 8 tiles where off-gassing can occur. You would need a LOT of polluted water in those seven tiles of liquid for the amount of off-gassing to be useful. Also, you should have your pufts in a room other than your off-gas room. If the pressure is low, the slime will evaporate back into PO2. I keep my pufts in a high-pressure room. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/95039-the-lack-of-po2-production-and-puft-ranching-is-out-of-balance/#findComment-1079636 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Raptor Posted August 31, 2018 Author Share Posted August 31, 2018 6 minutes ago, KittenIsAGeek said: Not enough surface area. You only have 8 tiles where off-gassing can occur. You would need a LOT of polluted water in those seven tiles of liquid for the amount of off-gassing to be useful. Also, you should have your pufts in a room other than your off-gas room. If the pressure is low, the slime will evaporate back into PO2. I keep my pufts in a high-pressure room. Not sure I understand. Do you have 2 separate rooms with PO2? or the puft ranch in a high-pressure oxygen room and a separate off gassing room where you pump the PO2 to the puft ranch? Also, what width should be the offgassing room to produce enough PO2? Can you elaborate a bit? a picture would be even better. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/95039-the-lack-of-po2-production-and-puft-ranching-is-out-of-balance/#findComment-1079639 Share on other sites More sharing options...
KittenIsAGeek Posted August 31, 2018 Share Posted August 31, 2018 My pufts are in a room where I control the pressure of PO2. I pump it in to keep them at around 10kg of PO2. Then, in my room where I produce the PO2 by off-gassing, I pump it out to keep the pressure under 500g. I actually have a couple of different sources for PO2 -- my fish tank has 20 tiles for off-gassing, and the run-off from my generators is 24 tiles. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/95039-the-lack-of-po2-production-and-puft-ranching-is-out-of-balance/#findComment-1079641 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xadhoom Posted August 31, 2018 Share Posted August 31, 2018 offgassing relies on a % of the p.water in a tile if i recall correctly, so 1 ton of pwater gives of more p.oxygen then 10 kg. use airflow tiles to box the water in so you always have max pressure on top. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/95039-the-lack-of-po2-production-and-puft-ranching-is-out-of-balance/#findComment-1079643 Share on other sites More sharing options...
hpongledd Posted August 31, 2018 Share Posted August 31, 2018 Only morbs. Not really visible on the picture but there is water. Around 5kg per tile but less is also ok. This should also help: https://oxygennotincluded.gamepedia.com/Polluted_Water Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/95039-the-lack-of-po2-production-and-puft-ranching-is-out-of-balance/#findComment-1079644 Share on other sites More sharing options...
KittenIsAGeek Posted August 31, 2018 Share Posted August 31, 2018 5 minutes ago, Xadhoom said: offgassing relies on a % of the p.water in a tile if i recall correctly, so 1 ton of pwater gives of more p.oxygen then 10 kg. use airflow tiles to box the water in so you always have max pressure on top. The amount per off-gas is based on how much polluted water is there. The chance to off-gas relies on surface area. So, the more surface area, the more frequently it off-gasses and the less liquid you need. No exploits necessary, just make a longer run and keep the pressure low. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/95039-the-lack-of-po2-production-and-puft-ranching-is-out-of-balance/#findComment-1079647 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Raptor Posted August 31, 2018 Author Share Posted August 31, 2018 4 minutes ago, hpongledd said: Only morbs. Not really visible on the picture but there is water. Around 5kg per tile but less is also ok. A gazillion of morbs..that is the problem i'm discussing. PW has no weight compared to the insane amount of morbs you have there... Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/95039-the-lack-of-po2-production-and-puft-ranching-is-out-of-balance/#findComment-1079649 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saturnus Posted August 31, 2018 Share Posted August 31, 2018 9 minutes ago, Xadhoom said: offgassing relies on a % of the p.water in a tile if i recall correctly, so 1 ton of pwater gives of more p.oxygen then 10 kg. use airflow tiles to box the water in so you always have max pressure on top. It's 0.1% So 1 ton is 1kg per off gassing. I keep my PW at least 100 ton per tile so that's 100kg per off gassing. If you use 4 pumps to remove the PO2 as quickly as possible you can have 6 off gassings per cycle or 1000g/s average. It takes just 16.67 cycles for a single liquid pump to generate that 100 ton per tile pressure. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/95039-the-lack-of-po2-production-and-puft-ranching-is-out-of-balance/#findComment-1079651 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Raptor Posted August 31, 2018 Author Share Posted August 31, 2018 1 minute ago, Saturnus said: It's 0.1% So 1 ton is 1kg per off gassing. I keep my PW at least 100 tonnes per tile so that's 100kg per off gassing. If you use 4 pumps to remove the PO2 as quickly as possible you can have 6 off gassings per cycle or 1000g/s average. A tile can have a maximum of 1 ton of liquid, how do you have 100 tones in one tile? Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/95039-the-lack-of-po2-production-and-puft-ranching-is-out-of-balance/#findComment-1079652 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saturnus Posted August 31, 2018 Share Posted August 31, 2018 2 minutes ago, Steve Raptor said: A tile can have a maximum of 1 ton of liquid, how do you have 100 tones in one tile? Look at the pictures I posted. I can have literally million of tons per tile if I want to. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/95039-the-lack-of-po2-production-and-puft-ranching-is-out-of-balance/#findComment-1079653 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Raptor Posted August 31, 2018 Author Share Posted August 31, 2018 28 minutes ago, Xadhoom said: offgassing relies on a % of the p.water in a tile if i recall correctly, so 1 ton of pwater gives of more p.oxygen then 10 kg. use airflow tiles to box the water in so you always have max pressure on top. Its nowhere near as that value, I just gave that a test. 9 tiles, full with 1T of PW produced in total 1.4kg of PO2 each, in total, ~13kg of PO2 So to sustain one puft via off-gassing, I need at least 20 tiles, this is not practical.. 17 minutes ago, Saturnus said: Look at the pictures I posted. I can have litterally million of tons per tile if I want to. I don't understand how your original pictures have to do with stacking 100 tones per tile. Also it seems like an non-intended feature.. and is more of a broken mechanic. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/95039-the-lack-of-po2-production-and-puft-ranching-is-out-of-balance/#findComment-1079654 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saturnus Posted August 31, 2018 Share Posted August 31, 2018 2 minutes ago, Steve Raptor said: I don't understand how your original pictures have to do with stacking 100 tones per tile. If you build it you will You don't have to take any special precautions either. Build it literally anywhere (as long as it's not a vacuum) and pump in PW. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/95039-the-lack-of-po2-production-and-puft-ranching-is-out-of-balance/#findComment-1079657 Share on other sites More sharing options...
KittenIsAGeek Posted August 31, 2018 Share Posted August 31, 2018 4 minutes ago, Steve Raptor said: Its nowhere near as that value, I just gave that a test. 9 tiles, full with 1T of PW produced in total 1.4kg of PO2 each, in total, ~13kg of PO2 I don't understand how your original pictures have to do with stacking 100 tones per tile. Doors do not break with pressure, and air-flow tiles aren't touched by the liquid. Its like the flooded-vent trick to over pressurize the gas in a room. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/95039-the-lack-of-po2-production-and-puft-ranching-is-out-of-balance/#findComment-1079660 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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