Theoretical maximum number of duplicants

[Zarquan]

I was wondering if anyone has done any work estimating the maximum number of duplicants that can be supported sustainably on a map, ignoring the computational power.  There are 2 major factors that are needed for a dupe to survive:  Food and oxygen.

Oxygen:  My dupes aren't fancy, they can breathe smog.  A morb farm can have a constant space with infinite production, so oxygen is not a major factor, though dupes may suffer from popped eardrums, because regulating the pressure would make it take up space and isn't necessary for survival.

Food:  This is the limiting factor because all food producers take space proportional to the number of duplicants supported.  Given water from geysers, natural gas generators (with crude oil boilers), distilleries, and all other sources, how much food can you farm?  How much food can you get from ranching?  What is the optimal?

Sleetwheat appears to be the densest farm at first, but you need dirt production, which takes space, so it is a bit of a trap.  Bristle blossoms are second and don't require dirt production, so they might be more efficient space wise.  But they take water, so you can only make so much of it.  After that, there is also mushrooms, which are very space efficient for the farms themselves, but require puft stables for slime production.

Then there are stables.  You can have slickster stables to produce crude oil and food, but at an extremely low rates of food production per unit space compared to farms.  However, the slickster farms will allow you to produce more water (from nat gas generators).  They effectively produce for free resource-wise.

The amount of food produced will be proportional to the quality of the geysers, of course.  Since this is a theoretical maximum, we will assume the best possible geyser/volcano setup, as well as the maximum possible number of oil wells.

Thoughts?

[Kabrute]

That it boils down to having the highest resource density inflow, so slush/leaky and other "liquid" geysers are optimal arrangement, imo, i'm running a shared seed that has 1 volcano in a horrid spot, and no metal volcanos(it falls from the sky now).  My plans are to use the glass forge to cook regolith to cook oil.  The amount of space provided, combined with resource availability means that the game supports a minimum-maximum range of dupes.  Theoretically, any map should support 20dupes at a minimum both in food and air just from geyser-farm on guaranteed geysers, the maximum would depend on an absolute perfect world seed, i'd say over 150, around 220 dupes, 3/4 of them eating gristle berry.

the seed you see shown there, has the bad volcano but the resources available to support enormous dupe counts.

[PhailRaptor]

The thing is that the resource cycles in the game all come back to the conversions back and forth between H2O and P-H2O.  Almost all resources either can be converted to one or the other, or are used to facilitate those conversions.  So at the end of the day, it all comes back to how productive your Geysers are, and the rate at which they output.

Due to the random nature of Geyser outputs, there is no way to predict how many Dupes a map can sustain until all Geysers have been analyzed and their per second rates are known.

[ICKA]

Morbs wouldn't work as well as you might think. If you went with deodorizers around them you'd be able to gain clay which you could feed to hatches, which would help with some of the food. Additionally the deodorizers remove the atmosphere of polluted oxygen around the morbs, allowing them to produce oxygen at a fast rate. If you kept adding more though, you'd eventually have too many morbs for the deodorizers to handle, and the morbs would be surrounded by polluted oxygen and produce less. You could remove the deodorizers and just use the polluted oxygen but the slimelung would eventually kill the dupes unless the germs were killed by cooling. In one of my tests many patches ago morbs would eventually get to around 45 C so you'd need a lot of cooling power to remove the germs. Additionally to let the morbs produce enough you'd have to submerge them, but eventually with enough morbs they just push the water around and off of them, lowering effectiveness. I'm not sure what the limit would be but you definitely can't put infinite morbs in one spot to support infinite dupes.

[UziMaster]

If you're okay using a massive amount of morbs in one spot, the same could be done with critters, packing as many as possible into one room that keeps them trapped, but isn't actually closed. A big enough room seems to not count as a room, and critters in it will never be overcrowded. Tame critters will now always produce an egg under the same circumstances wild ones would.. Thus, you can stack an essentially infinite number of critters in one spot and use their meat as an infinitely dense source of food.

In short, the real limit is modern processing power, not what you can fit on the map.

[Zarquan]

7 minutes ago, Kabrute said:

My plans are to use the glass forge to cook regolith to cook oil

You can use regolith to make glass?  I thought it was only sand.

29 minutes ago, Kabrute said:

i'd say over 150, around 220 dupes, 3/4 of them eating gristle berry.

I'm pretty sure the optimal map could support more than 220.  Using an oil well for water alone, you gain 1857 g/s water.  That is enough for 62 plants approximately, which an support 20 dupes from the plants. 

3 minutes ago, PhailRaptor said:

Due to the random nature of Geyser outputs, there is no way to predict how many Dupes a map can sustain until all Geysers have been analyzed and their per second rates are known.

That is why I said the best possible geysers.

2 minutes ago, ICKA said:

Morbs wouldn't work as well as you might think. If you went with deodorizers around them you'd be able to gain clay which you could feed to hatches, which would help with some of the food. Additionally the deodorizers remove the atmosphere of polluted oxygen around the morbs, allowing them to produce oxygen at a fast rate. If you kept adding more though, you'd eventually have too many morbs for the deodorizers to handle, and the morbs would be surrounded by polluted oxygen and produce less. You could remove the deodorizers and just use the polluted oxygen but the slimelung would eventually kill the dupes unless the germs were killed by cooling. In one of my tests many patches ago morbs would eventually get to around 45 C so you'd need a lot of cooling power to remove the germs. Additionally to let the morbs produce enough you'd have to submerge them, but eventually with enough morbs they just push the water around and off of them, lowering effectiveness. I'm not sure what the limit would be but you definitely can't put infinite morbs in one spot to support infinite dupes.

The dupes will breathe the polluted oxygen directly.  Hopefully, I can kill the germs with coldness and not worry about cleaning it.  If I do clean it, it will probably be done using a liquid oxygen machine. 

42 minutes ago, UziMaster said:

Thus, you can stack an essentially infinite number of critters in one spot and use their meat as an infinitely dense source of food.

True, but I find it more likely that they fix the ranchable critters in that respect than the morbs.  Unless they give morbs critter features, like lifespan and overcrowding.

[Megouski]

Theoretical maximum is infinite dupes. Do you mean practical maximum?

[trukogre]

17 minutes ago, Megouski said:

Theoretical maximum is infinite dupes. Do you mean practical maximum?

No, I think he means theoretical maximum that could be sustainably supported on a map generated with the current default map generation settings, not using debug/sandbox to support the dupes or generate creatures, but assuming that the computer running the map was magical and wouldn't overload.  This number is perhaps not infinite, as many creatures produce less when overcrowded; I'm not sure exactly how the overcrowding code works so I couldn't say for sure.  Do you have a notion of how to support infinite dupes under these conditions stacking numerically unbounded creatures in a small space and avoiding overcrowding penalties?

[AnotherBoris]

Best way to produce food is Puft Ranch + Mushroom farm.

Spoiler

 

1 Puft produce 311 kcal per cycle as eggs and 15kg slime. 15 kg slime - 1400 kcal (Fried Mushroom).

So 30 kg Polluted Water = 1711kcal. 0.057 kcal per 1g of Polluted Water.

For example,Brisle Blossom consume 180 kg Water per 2000 kcal (Griste Berry) = 0.011kcal per 1g of Water.

 

As for oxygen, there are two main ways of producing it - Electrolyzer and the evaporation of Polluted Water. The first produces energy and heat, the second - food, cold and coal. And for consumption, they are more or less equivalent - the first requires 67.5kg of water per duplicant, and the second - 67kg of Polluted Water.

[Zarquan]

2 hours ago, AnotherBoris said:

Best way to produce food is Puft Ranch + Mushroom farm.

  Reveal hidden contents

 

1 Puft produce 311 kcal per cycle as eggs and 15kg slime. 15 kg slime - 1400 kcal (Fried Mushroom).

The only issue with puft ranches is that they take a lot of space.  You can fill any extra space with that, but I think the bulk of the food would probably be gristle berries.  The question is whether the slicksters produce more food converting CO2 to water better than pufts convert polluted oxygen to slime.  The question being should I vent my CO2 in to space and not actually bother with slicksters.

Ignoring eggs for the time being:

Pufts produce 15 kg slime, resulting in 1400 kcal per puft.

Slicksters produce 10 kg crude oil per cycle, resulting in 10 kg nat gas, which leads to 7.5 kg water per slickster per cycle.  That results in 125 kcal per slickster via nat gas generation.  If you use farmers touch perfectly, you can get up to 234.6 kcal.

Those numbers imply that slicksters probably aren't worth it.  The pufts would have to require more than 10 times the space to make it worth while. 

If I were to build such a colony, I would use morbs to produce free polluted oxygen and feed that to pufts.  My dupes would also breathe this polluted oxygen, which I would try to keep cold to kill the slime lung.  I would use all the oil wells to produce oil and boil it with a volcano.  I would take the nat gas from the boiler to nat gas generators, which would produce more water than I spent on the oil wells.  And I would dump the CO2 in to space because the slicksters aren't worth the space in my colony.  Also no beds or no mess tables.

Does this sound optimal use of space if you wanted the densest, slummiest asteroid in the world?

2 hours ago, trukogre said:

No, I think he means theoretical maximum that could be sustainably supported on a map generated with the current default map generation settings, not using debug/sandbox to support the dupes or generate creatures, but assuming that the computer running the map was magical and wouldn't overload.  This number is perhaps not infinite, as many creatures produce less when overcrowded; I'm not sure exactly how the overcrowding code works so I couldn't say for sure.  Do you have a notion of how to support infinite dupes under these conditions stacking numerically unbounded creatures in a small space and avoiding overcrowding penalties?

The map that I would want to build this on is one which is technically possible, but would never happen.  If I were to attempt this, I would use debug to replace the existing geysers with the best possible geysers, bring the number of oil wells up to maximum, go for a map with the most accessible magma pockets (to cool them, dig them out, and make them farms.  I would probably not try to build it in survival, as it is a test of concept rather than a practical goal.  So I would spawn in the creatures initially as I would need them (but only as they would have been ranched in survival), since you can create the creatures in the survival mode anyway. 

Honestly, I am not an expert in how ranching works or how the overcrowded or fertility mechanics work.  I haven't had too much time to play recently.  If you can infinitely stack creatures without them being considered overcowded so that they keep producing eggs, then you can support infinite dupes in a finite space by just eating the meat from the infinite creatures dying.  It would not be a pleasant place to live though.  I would probably have one habitable area with good decor right next to the morbs and with access to the meat pit.  To dispose of CO2, I would either have a CO2 lock going to a chimney going to space OR I would be feeding the CO2 to slickers (who would be living in the meat pit). 

Sounds like a horrible way to live.  I doubt I could keep their stress down on fatalistic and I don't know how I would stop them from getting sick on miserable, or even normal.  Anyone want to give it a try?

[AnotherBoris]

Understood nothing

1 hour ago, Zarquan said:

The only issue with puft ranches is that they take a lot of space. 

Suppose we have 10kg of water per second. 4.5 from three Oil Wells, the rest from vents. These are quite real numbers.

This is 6000 kg per cycle.

My current map allows me to build a minimum of 250x250, that is, 62500 tiles. In fact, i can also build up space and some magma fields.

One duplicant consumes 67 kg of water for producing oxygen, and as I showed above, 20 kg for food production. 2/3 of Puft. Puft requires 12 cells, but, taking into account the entire infrastructure, let it be 24. and 4 farm tile for mushrooms with 4 cells each. Total - 40 tiles.

6000/90 = 67 Duplicants.

67 * 40 * 2/3 = 1790 tiles.

1790! 1790 of 62500! * Censored *!

Less than two percent of space. Where is "a lot of space"?

1 hour ago, Zarquan said:

The question is whether the slicksters produce more food converting CO2 to water better than pufts convert polluted oxygen to slime.

Erm... what? I see no reason why it is impossible to build both at the same time.

 

1 hour ago, Zarquan said:

Ignoring eggs for the time being:

Brilliant! Eggs from one slickster can feed 0.47 duplicant.

 

1 hour ago, Zarquan said:

Slicksters produce 10 kg crude oil per cycle, resulting in 10 kg nat gas, which leads to 7.5 kg water per slickster per cycle.  That results in 125 kcal per slickster via nat gas generation.  If you use farmers touch perfectly, you can get up to 234.6 kcal.

Just multiply Spicksters count by (1/8+1/64+1/512...) = 0.15

 

1 hour ago, Zarquan said:

If I were to build such a colony, I would use morbs to produce free polluted oxygen and feed that to pufts. 

This is an option, but this solution is very stinky of exploits. Instead of quite real 3 creatures per duplicant, we'll get a computer-killer map. Such a decision is of no interest.

 

 

[Zarquan]

29 minutes ago, AnotherBoris said:

Erm... what? I see no reason why it is impossible to build both at the same time.

One will always be better than the other.  I could build slicksters, but I could always get more by building pufts, unless I missed something.

30 minutes ago, AnotherBoris said:

Brilliant! Eggs from one slickster can feed 0.47 duplicant.

I didn't get back to eggs, you are right.  if slickster eggs provide 0.47 of a dupes diet, and they also provide 0.235 via gristle berries, then you end up with 0.7.  A single puft provides 1.7 kcal per cycle if you include eggs.

33 minutes ago, AnotherBoris said:

Just multiply Spicksters count by (1/8+1/64+1/512...) = 0.15

This isn't amount of water slickers can get per unit CO2, this is amount of water slicksters can get per unit time.  The fact that the nat gas generators produce CO2 that can be fed to slicksters is irrelevant to that calculation.

34 minutes ago, AnotherBoris said:

This is an option, but this solution is very stinky of exploits. Instead of quite real 3 creatures per duplicant, we'll get a computer-killer map. Such a decision is of no interest.

This is a theoretical exercise, trying to find the theoretical maximum, ignoring computational limits.  The thing is that any other oxygen generation mechanism uses water and space, both of which I want to use to maximize food production.  The morb thing is still in the game after they reworked creatures, therefore I should consider it.

[Evaris]

With morbs, we can probably consider "thousands" as a practical answer.  

Without morbs, it will depend heavily on geysers avaliable.  It may be more worthwhile to consider the lowest end possible, and work from there.  You can range from your base two cool steam geysers, averaging as low as 3000g/s/cycle including dormancy between them.  This gets you 1800kg/water per cycle.

You're also guaranteed at least one natural gas geyser, which will give you about 200g/s/cycle including dormacy on average.  It can be lower, but we'll work off this figure. which lets you run two generators full time without downtime, and gives as a byproduct 135g/s pwater, or 81kg per cycle. 

And then we have at least one oil reservoir node per map,  giving you a net gain of 1500kgpwater/water/cycle if you're boiling off the oil to more natural gas.

If we filter the pwater we gain via a water sieve, using the unlimited source of filtration medium that is regolith, we can turn one fifth of our Pwater mass to dirt, while keeping the mass of water as well.  

This nets us about 320kg of dirt per day (not including pwater gain by lavatory use).  This allows for 32 mealwood plants, thus enough to feed eight dupes (four mealwood per dupe).   That's not really a hard limit on anything, and we don't quite need to go into using water - if you set things up correctly and take precautions, you can feed a couple dozen dupes on wild plants.  Or at least peppernuts to turn meat from hatch ranches to bbq for some extra calories.   

Meanwhile, in total, we have about 3400kg of water per cycle.  Electrolyzers (when properly set up) will let you turn 1000kg/cycle to oxygen for eight dupes, meaning we have a maximum capacity of oxygen (at minimum continual) for 26-27 dupes.  30 if you have a few with divers lungs.   

If we, however, remove boiling oil to natgas as an option, we still sit around a 15-16 dupe viable population, even if you're the least lucky person in the world on natgen and refuse to boil that oil, and are somehow taking your colony to tens of thousands of cycles..  

As for more of a maximum, well I am not sure of the true maximum, but we can take a high water output seed like 1380665115, with 4 geyzers, three slush geyzers, and a full three oil reseviors, plus a 400g/s nat gas vent.  Water production without the oil/natgas is around 25,000g/cycle.  
We'll even calculate this on a matter of the dupes living comfortably - living off farmed plants, in this case berries since they're easy to do and only cost 20kg/cycle each, requiring only three per dupe, giving each dupe a cost of 185kg/water/cycle between berries and oxygen.  This means you have sustainable conditions for 160 dupes, maybe a dozen more or so if you make a point to prioritize divers lungs from the printer.



But like I said, once you bring morbs and pufts into the equation, we can throw the math out the window and simply ask, how much time do you want to invest, and how good is your computer?  Or I would like to say so, except pufts take space.  We are in a finite 250x250 tile space, after all.  Per five dupes, we will need:
5 beds.  We'll calculate this for cots, so 4 tiles each, 20 in total. 
5 meal tables.  5 tiles
one massage table.  four tiles.  
Two toilets, two sinks, one shower.  sixteen tiles
A power source - we'll say for the sake of argument we're going to be pulling from a transformer, probably have a few batteries, and need to include some from the communal power generation, so let's use 16 tiles as a placeholder.
An electric grill and a refridgerator - eight tiles.  
A puft ranch for at least three pufts for mushrooms for five people, so 36 tiles,  but we're also running other ranches, so we'll double that for the sake of argument.
20 farm tiles for the mushrooms, of course
Five deodorizers to keep the air fresh, since regolith is unlimited, for clean oxygen production from our infinite morbs.  five tiles.  
And enough furniture to keep them happy - probably a painting per person, so we'll say 20.  

Plus of course we'll need to make all this in rooms with things like floors, so let's bump up the figures by 20% as a bare minimum. And we'll double that really, to give room for projects and special buildings (and the occasional wall), to 40% higher figures in total.  This gives us 52 tiles per dupe, and a maximum possible population of 1200ish dupes.  In reality, if you give your dupes somewhat decent living conditions, you're probably looking at 900-1000.  If you go all out in space efficiency, maybe you could manage to get things up to near 1500, but you're unlikely to fit more without really sacrificing dupe's standards of living and reaching into video game cruelty potential.  
 

[UziMaster]

If the limited resource turns out to be water moreso than space, shouldn't you be ranching creatures that don't consume water or it's derivatives? (assuming we're not doing infinite stacking). Namely, balm-lilly Drecko's and possibly shinebugs in addition, depending on how the math works out.

Creatures reproducing without attention is certainly an intended behavior, and with that in mind Pacu can provide meat every 25 cycles (minus a few cycles actually) They also provide the heaviest egg shells with the shortest lifespan, so are overall the best critter to leave "hands-off" for food and such, if you aren't stacking with cheeky methods. (Pacu can't be stacked, I don't think) You do need startup algae of course, to breed, but long term not an issue. Not sure how it compares to Drecko, compared to Drecko + Shinebugs space-wise. Question is, if using one of these for food and all water for oxygen, does space then become a constraint or are we still constrained by water generation?

(Eggshells can be composted for dirt either way, for extra mealwood.)

[Evaris]

On most maps, we're still going to be limited by oxygen without morbs to 125kg of water per dupe for oxygen, plus any polluted oxygen vents you may have's averaged output with dormacy / 100g/s per dupe.   

The problem with Pacus is they need algae, which for a infinitely running colony, you're limited by puffts, which are limited by morbs... so... yeah that doesn't work out so well.

As a result, for living off meat, you're going to need hatches or a chlorine geyser to infinitely run balm lilies for dreckos.  Assuming you have the latter for phosphorite for peppers for BBQ, and thus get more calories, then; Hatches have a 17% chance of reproducing each cycle when happy, so one in seven hatches will lay an egg, and drop 2kg meat on death, so with grooming it takes a little over two hatches per dupe per day on average.  For Dreckos, it's an 11% chance, and again we're looking at just over two dreckos per dupe on average.  Which means an additional 24 tiles per dupe of space, not including external infastructure or walls, so we'll consider it a seven by six space - seven wide, six high, to incorporate that area - so an additional 42 tiles per dupe.  Actually, we need two pepperplants per dupe as well, assuming we have the dreckos running for BBQ, so that's an extra 12 tiles in total atop that 42.  

If we don't have pepperplants, we then need three and a half hatches or dreckos per dupe, and... well that means roughly double the space.  

And we come back to the "probably about a thousand is the maximum limit" value due to space restrictions, again.  

[Carnis]

On My games limiting Factor has been My own gaming Time, then water.

I'm using 2 lavatory/30 duplicant. Its More than enough. Went to 80 dups with that & oilboiler.

If you ranch dreckos for snazzy you can forget massage tables.

Each oil boiler is 7.5kg water/s, 2.5kg CO per sec.

Each 3 duplicant is 21k co2/c when not in atmosuits.

Slicksters are a big part of larger colonies.

[Prince Mandor]

2 minutes ago, Evaris said:

... you're going to need hatches or a chlorine geyser to infinitely run balm lilies for dreckos.  ...

You do not need chlorine geyser for lilies. They do not consume it, just put 200g of chlorine - and they will be fine indefinitely

[Evaris]

Well, in that case Drecko farming for days and live off BBQ until you hit your oxygen limit, which will depend on either water or morbs, depending on if you use morbs.  If you use morbs you get a living space limit of 1,000-1,500 dupes or less depending on projects and living standards.

You'll still probably hit your water output oxygen limit before you hit your ranching support limit.  

[AnotherBoris]

I've been thinking: 1 Dense Puft eats 1.5 kg of oxygen per cycle. And produces 311 calories in the form of eggs. 1 Lavatory produces 6.7kg of PWater per cycle, if duplicants do not carry ExoSuit. That is, in fact, they can be completely fed with water from the toilets!

[Prince Mandor]

35 minutes ago, AnotherBoris said:

I've been thinking: 1 Dense Puft eats 1.5 kg of oxygen per cycle. And produces 311 calories in the form of eggs. 1 Lavatory produces 6.7kg of PWater per cycle, if duplicants do not carry ExoSuit. That is, in fact, they can be completely fed with water from the toilets!

Did you know any good tricks, to reproduce dense pufts steadily?

[AnotherBoris]

Just now, Prince Mandor said:

Did you know any good tricks, to reproduce dense pufts steadily?

Nope. And what are the problems with them? Like they produce their own eggs with a probability of 67%?

 

[Kabrute]

stick a lure in the dense puft farm and put a single prince with them.  The lure will keep the prince from starving to death, keep your pufts in a small space, and let you farm individual puft breeds on a per stable basis.

[Zarquan]

8 hours ago, Evaris said:

5 beds.  We'll calculate this for cots, so 4 tiles each, 20 in total. 
5 meal tables.  5 tiles
one massage table.  four tiles.  
Two toilets, two sinks, one shower.  sixteen tiles
A power source - we'll say for the sake of argument we're going to be pulling from a transformer, probably have a few batteries, and need to include some from the communal power generation, so let's use 16 tiles as a placeholder.
An electric grill and a refridgerator - eight tiles.  
A puft ranch for at least three pufts for mushrooms for five people, so 36 tiles,  but we're also running other ranches, so we'll double that for the sake of argument.
20 farm tiles for the mushrooms, of course
Five deodorizers to keep the air fresh, since regolith is unlimited, for clean oxygen production from our infinite morbs.  five tiles.  
And enough furniture to keep them happy - probably a painting per person, so we'll say 20.  

You really want my dupes to live the high life of luxury here.  Beds?  Mess tables?  Those things could just be more farms and pufts.  Toilets increase the amount of water we get, so we might want those.  But we could also build the base out of mesh tiles and collect "water" at the bottom.  Why do we need fridges when we can cook in chlorine?  That will preserve the food for us and, perhaps, kill any germs that got on them if we don't include sinks (because sinks space is just more pufts).  As far as I understand "making a mess" doesn't get any germs on them, so we should be good without sinks if we skip toilets.  Deodorizers?  We can breathe stinky air stuff, it wont kill us (as long as we can chill it enough to get rid of enough slime lung).  We can get used to the smell.  My thinking is most of the dupes would be packed in to a very small area which is breathable (each of them having a snazzy suit) with a few statues.   They can go in to the cooking area for food, but that is it.  Another question, why would we be running ranches other than the one that gets us the most food?  Everyone else would do their jobs in exosuits.  The CO2 would go through a CO2 airlock and up in to space.

5 hours ago, Evaris said:

If we don't have pepperplants, we then need three and a half hatches or dreckos per dupe, and... well that means roughly double the space.  

Remember that we are boiling oil for natural gas and water.  That is basically unlimited power.

I was also thinking that the number would probably be at least a thousand too.

5 hours ago, AnotherBoris said:

I've been thinking: 1 Dense Puft eats 1.5 kg of oxygen per cycle. And produces 311 calories in the form of eggs. 1 Lavatory produces 6.7kg of PWater per cycle, if duplicants do not carry ExoSuit. That is, in fact, they can be completely fed with water from the toilets!

The only issue there is space.  With a stable that could support 1 normal puft plus 2 squares, you can get 1400 kcal of mushrooms per cycle.

 

 

5 hours ago, Carnis said:

On My games limiting Factor has been My own gaming Time, then water.

I'm using 2 lavatory/30 duplicant. Its More than enough. Went to 80 dups with that & oilboiler.

If you ranch dreckos for snazzy you can forget massage tables.

Each oil boiler is 7.5kg water/s, 2.5kg CO per sec.

Each 3 duplicant is 21k co2/c when not in atmosuits.

Slicksters are a big part of larger colonies.

That is because your colonies aren't as big as this one.  When resources are the limiting factor, you want all the slicksters you can get.  If you don't use morbs, you would probably use more slicksters, but that would also severely limit the number of dupes you could support.  When space to grow food becomes the limiting factor, then they are no longer worth it as long as you still have enough power.  If you are boiling 4 oil reservoirs, I find it hard to believe you will be using that much power and be needing more.  And the food you get from water you get from a slickster pales in comparison to the amount of food you get from a puft's slime.                         

[Zarquan]

6 hours ago, Evaris said:

Well, in that case Drecko farming for days and live off BBQ until you hit your oxygen limit, which will depend on either water or morbs, depending on if you use morbs.  If you use morbs you get a living space limit of 1,000-1,500 dupes or less depending on projects and living standards.

We would certainly want some drekkos because of farmer's touch, we need the phosphorite.  I think we can assume that everyone is wearing snazzy suits in the colony without having a source (because we destroyed it when we didn't need it anymore).  That means we would not be interested in normal drekkos, so they either become omlets or are eaten as raw meat (because we can't afford pinchapepper).  Glossy drekkos, however, produce water.  It goes like this:  Every 3 cycles, they produce 150 kg plastic. Plastic -> naphtha -> natural gas

We would produce 50 kg natural gas per cycle per glossy drekko, which translates to 37.5 kg water/cycle.  Without farmers touch, that translates to 625 kcal per drekko from gristle berry.  That is doing better than the slicksters.  With farmer's touch (using their own phosphorite) we would get 1178.8 kcal per drekko.  That is rivaling pufts in space efficiency. 

We also get more mass in eggs from drekkos because drekkos produce eggs 4 times as massive at half the rate, so twice as much.

We also get the same amount of meat per drekko and they take less space. 

For these calculations, we should remember 2 things:  We get to eat all but 1 of the eggs an animal produces because the animal will need to replace itself.  We also eat any meat raw because we can't afford pinchapepper plants.

According to ONI Biology, if we feed the drekkos meal wood (to maximize glossy drekkos), we will get 9 kg phosphorite cycle.  The alternative would be to have normal drekkos who eat balm lily, which would lead to them producing 60 kg, meaning you would need fewer drekkos and still get the egg and meat benefits, but without the water. 

Assuming everything runs perfectly, we can get a reasonable upper bound here on food per animal, which we will translate in to food per unit area taken.

With glossy drekkos, we get 1178.8 kcal of bristle berries per cycle.  We also get, on average, 1 egg every 10 cycles, which is 560 kcal/cycle.  Then we would get 3200 kcal meat every 150 cycles, resulting in 21.33 kcal.  That brings us to a total of 1760 kcal/cycle from drekkos.  Each drekko requires 12 tiles.  That results in 146.67 kcal/tile/cycle.

With regular drekkos, you need less of them because they generate so much more phosphite, but you only get 48.4 kcal per tile per cycle.

With regular pufts, you can boost mushrooms with farmer's touch, so you can actually produce 2800 kcal of mushroom per puft.  Each puft ends up producing the same amount of meat as a drekko.  We also get to eat 15 eggs over 75 cycles, but each egg is only half a kg, so 280 kcal/cycle.  That adds to a total of 3101 kcal/puft/cycle.  That results in 193.8 kcal/tile/cycle, ignoring the phosphite production.  However, this would also require water for your mushrooms, which naturally limits how many you can get.

Wow this post is long....I didn't even get to take in to account the space the processing buildings take...

[Carnis]

This is a silly thought experiment.

Short answer, with infinite resources from infinite morbs, you can support infinite duplicants.

Snazzy suits stack infinitely, so every1 has  0 stress even with constant popped eardrums.

No beds, no stables, so nobody needs other than computing power to survive. A grooming station does not need walls, or a stable. Co2 vents to space, or even easier our LOX machine makes CO2 into a solid blob.

a) Infinite polluted slimelung oxygen -> Infinite capacity LOX machine (power is infinite, with infinite hamsterwheels).

b) Infinite capacity doorpumps harvest polluted oxygen, and infinite capacity doorpumps move liquid oxygen to colony, and this liquid oxygen cools the hydrogen cooling machines, that heat up while making the LOX.

c) Colony has just duplicants on meshtiles, somehow the messes they make drop to morbs and combine into PO to the incoming LOX machine.

d) Colony has something to make minimal slime to not let puft princes extinct.

e) Colony is full of stacks of critter lure + 5 ranching stations 1 puft prince, 10000 dense pufts. 3-4 dense pufts support one duplicant with omeletts for oxygen, which we already have as an infinite resource.

 

->

Forget the farming. Your limiting factor becomes the size of your LOX machine, and the max capacity of the grooming stations.