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Thermal math -- WW vs Steam Geyser


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I've been running into a problem with the Steam Geyser I've harnessed as the source for my Electrolyzer.  Having encased the Geyser in Abyssalite, the Steam produced doesn't have anywhere to radiate to, keeping it as Steam.  So I reconstructed the roof of the chamber.  A series of Gold Metal Tiles, an array of refined Gold Tempshift Plates, and a box of Hydrogen @ 5kg/tile with, initially, 3 Wheezeworts.  While it has worked in the short term, the overall temperature in the Wheezewort box continues to rise.  So I added 2 more Wheezeworts to the box.  But...  it's not really making much of a difference.  So I started running some numbers.

The Geyser in question produces 6.6 kg/s for 311 seconds each eruption, sitting idle for the next 640 seconds.  The Steam is a 110 C, which is 383 K.  Water and Steam both share a Heat Capacity of 4.179 J/g/K.  That temperature gives 1600 J/g.  6600 g/s over 311 s is 2,052,600 g in total.  This gives a total heat production of 3,285,303,298.2 J per eruption.  *yikes*

Wheezeworts reduce the temperature of the gas they breath by 5 K, which for Hydrogen and it's Heat Capacity of 2.4 J/g/K gives 12,000 J per Wheezewort per second.  The full eruption period of the Geyser is 951 seconds (actual eruption + idle time), meaning that each Wheezewort in Hydrogen will delete 11,412,000 J.  With 5 Wheezeworts in the chamber, that's only 57,060,000 J of heat.  That's a pretty huge shortfall.  That would come to 57 or 58 Wheezeworts to nullify that heat, which is obviously not sustainable.

First and foremost, I did all that math right, right?  I guess a flaw is that I don't actually need to negate all the heat, just enough to knock it down from Steam to Water (Electrolyzer fixed output makes input temp irrelevant).  The game lists 99.4 C for the conversion temp, but there's some sort of 5 degree float, right?  How does that work?

Looking at this, I'm not sure what my options are.  Not only will the Geyser continue to overpressurize for part of it's eruption (which is ultimately what started this math test), but the raw heat created will continue to overpower my Wheezeworts.  Sooner or later they're going to Stifle and stop working.  It's clear that Wheezeworts aren't a long term solution for condensing a Steam Geyser.  I have an AETN in view, but I haven't unearthed it yet, because it's Ice Biome is open to the Oil Biome (with 2 Leaky Fissures right there, with the map's 2 Oil Reservoirs -- great map for Oil once I get that far).  I'm just not seeing much of an answer here.

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3 degree float in both directions, really depends on which end you are approaching from have to go 3 past that, so for condensing, 3 degrees cooler than list temp, 96.4

as for a solution, I would wrap the entire thing in normal igneous tiles, with some inverted hydro tiles growing peppernuts off the buttom, declare the entire area around it, if possible, a "hot box" and start building a heat cancelation engine either using the steam turbine or one of the many fixed output machines....

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You can also just pump something by that gets deleted later (polluted water, hydrogen etc.). If you want to use Wheezeworts you can as well.

Your math is incomplete. How much g/s steam does come out on average? The erruption cycle doesn't really matter as long as there is some mass that the Wheezeworts can cool during dormancy.

First of all think long term. Add mass to the area with tempshift plates and stuff like that. And actually look at how much your vent produces on average.

Now you only need to cool down the steam by 11K for it to condense. For steam/water that is about 46 J/g so for each kg/s you need about 3.8 Wheezeworts. Make it 4 and there you have your water. In the current version the Wheezewort count has been increased significantly so you won't have issues to find enough for them to condense your 110°C steam.

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36 minutes ago, clickrush said:

Your math is incomplete. How much g/s steam does come out on average? The erruption cycle doesn't really matter as long as there is some mass that the Wheezeworts can cool during dormancy.

Average? He knows exactly how much, or am I missing something? 6.6 kg/s for 311 seconds = 2,052.6 kg every 951 seconds. Average would be 2.16 kg per second = 3,457 J/s? Doesn't that math wrongly suggest that that 1 wart at 12,000 J/s is overkill? Serious question. I'm trying to learn this stuff.

EDIT:

Derp. Grams not kilograms. 3.4m J/s not 3.4k. Isn't that 288(!) warts to completely nullify the heat?

So about 8.27 warts to keep the whole contraption at 372K? Is that right?

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Just use a pool of polluted water on the top of your metal tiles.  When it gets too hot (50-60 cycles) either send the hot PH20 to a fertilizer maker or a distiller.   (As a bonus it kills any germs in it.) Use the wheezies for other things.

 

Six by Six

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23 minutes ago, XEVEN said:

Average? He knows exactly how much, or am I missing something? 6.6 kg/s for 311 seconds = 2,052.6 kg every 951 seconds. Average would be 2.16 kg per second = 3,457 J/s? Doesn't that math wrongly suggest that that 1 wart at 12,000 J/s is overkill? Serious question. I'm trying to learn this stuff.

EDIT:

Derp. Grams not kilograms. 3.4m J/s not 3.4k. Isn't that 288(!) warts to completely nullify the heat?

OP didn't include the dormancy cycle, just the erruption period. It is possibly just half of that output.

However if we assume 2kg/s of 110°C steam:

You need to cool it by 11K to condense it. For steam/water that is 11K * 4.179 (J/g)/K * 2000g/s = 91.938kW of cooling needed. A Wheezewort does about 12kW if submerged in hydrogen. This means ~7.6 Wheezeworts are needed. Make it 8.

You don't need to cool it down more than those 11K to feed it into Electrolyzers, Carbon Skimmers etc.

And again you don't need any Wheezeworts at all for this. You can just pump by some hydrogen/oil/polluted water that you consume later and you'll condense it as well.

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2 minutes ago, clickrush said:

OP didn't include the dormancy cycle, just the erruption period. It is possibly just half of that output.

However if we assume 2kg/s of 110°C steam:

You need to cool it by 11K to condense it. For steam/water that is 11K * 4.179 (J/g)/K * 2000g/s = 91.938kW of cooling needed. A Wheezewort does about 12kW if submerged in hydrogen. This means ~7.6 Wheezeworts are needed. Make it 8.

You don't need to cool it down more than those 11K to feed it into Electrolyzers, Carbon Skimmers etc.

And again you don't need any Wheezeworts at all for this. You can just pump by some hydrogen/oil/polluted water that you consume later and you'll condense it as well.

Thanks! I think I've got it now.

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2 hours ago, PhailRaptor said:

The full eruption period of the Geyser is 951 seconds (actual eruption + idle time), meaning that each Wheezewort in Hydrogen will delete 11,412,000 J.  With 5 Wheezeworts in the chamber, that's only 57,060,000 J of heat.  That's a pretty huge shortfall.  That would come to 57 or 58 Wheezeworts to nullify that heat, which is obviously not sustainable.

There's something you should consider, focusing in on this one point. I imagine that:

While the geyser is active, after several eruptions your hydrogen is getting too warm to do much work. You wind up only condensing a fraction of the steam that comes out, and you actually end up with less water because the geyser over-pressures.

While the geyser is dormant your hydrogen probably cools to -60 very quickly and your wheezeworts stifle.

So, what I suggest you consider is buffering heat, storing more steam, or a bit of both. Basically, if you can keep your wheezeworts working through the entire dormant cycle and cool the steam JUST BARELY to <100C (actually this part takes a little extra design) you can reduce the number of wheezeworts substantially. Just by:

1) storing steam in a larger chamber so that your cooling has time to catch up / the vent doesn't overpressure

2) pump enough hydrogen into your cooler such that your coolant buffers more heat (becomes less thermally reactive, and more resilient to surges in cooling load)

 

tl;dr

make your steam trap bigger

make sure your system uses a very large mass of hydrogen coolant. The more the better, no such thing as too much.

don't waste cooling - if the water you pump out is less than 99C, work on your design so that it uses a larger surface area and lower thermal conductivity.

 

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48 minutes ago, clickrush said:

OP didn't include the dormancy cycle, just the erruption period. It is possibly just half of that output.

However if we assume 2kg/s of 110°C steam:

You need to cool it by 11K to condense it. For steam/water that is 11K * 4.179 (J/g)/K * 2000g/s = 91.938kW of cooling needed. A Wheezewort does about 12kW if submerged in hydrogen. This means ~7.6 Wheezeworts are needed. Make it 8.

You don't need to cool it down more than those 11K to feed it into Electrolyzers, Carbon Skimmers etc.

And again you don't need any Wheezeworts at all for this. You can just pump by some hydrogen/oil/polluted water that you consume later and you'll condense it as well.

The Active cycle is ~66% uptime.  I don't recall the cycle value.  I fished for this seed using Debug to check the outputs and convert them to the adjusted per second outputs.  In the case of this particular Geyser, it's 1.5 kg/s over the full Active/Dormant cycle.  Just under what appears to be the average output from the exposed Geysers, based on my various seed fishing attempts.

The issue is that I'm already running into overpressure issues per eruption.  If the Wheezeworts end up Stifling from the heat, then it won't matter how long the Dormant period is.

[Edit]  Seed is 465170584 if anyone wants to play with it.  The exposed Caustic Steam Vent right on the top right edge of the starter biome.  Other Geysers include 1 exposed NatGas (weak), 1 bricked NatGas, 1 bricked Cool Steam (very weak), 1 clean Water, 2 Leaky Oil Fissure, 2 Oil Resevoirs, and an Iron Volcano.  Growing plants are kind of light in the starter, but there's a lot of Muckroot and a surprising number of Mealwood seeds.

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3 minutes ago, PhailRaptor said:

The Active cycle is ~66% uptime.  I don't recall the cycle value.  I fished for this seed using Debug to check the outputs and convert them to the adjusted per second outputs.  In the case of this particular Geyser, it's 1.5 kg/s over the full Active/Dormant cycle.  Just under what appears to be the average output from the exposed Geysers, based on my various seed fishing attempts.

The issue is that I'm already running into overpressure issues per eruption.  If the Wheezeworts end up Stifling from the heat, then it won't matter how long the Dormant period is.

Then again, just add mass to the thing in the form of tempshift plates etc. Maybe make the room bigger. Pump some polluted water by. If the active cycle is about 66% then you need about 5 Wheezeworts.

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8 minutes ago, XEVEN said:

So, you're still heating up your oxygen room pretty significantly... What do you guys do to counter that?

You can use insulated (abyssalite) pipes to prevent the pipes from radiating too much. Electrolyzers themselves store about 1-2kg Water. But that is really a non-issue here because they won't overheat. Actually pumping 90°C Water into them while they produce 70°C gas completely protects your machinery from overheating.

The oxygen itself should be cooled before you pump it into your base. But since O2 has a much lower specific heat capacity than water, this won't be a huge issue. If you consume a 100% uptime electrolyzer O2 output you need about 4 Wheezeworts and the O2 will be at room temp or a bit lower.

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Problem is you can't pump 1000C steam without borking pumps. Seriously we are forced to use doors? SHAME! *ding ding*

You can't even do indirect cooling, because steam engine output is still above melting point of machines.

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58 minutes ago, cpy said:

Problem is you can't pump 1000C steam without borking pumps. Seriously we are forced to use doors? SHAME! *ding ding*

Real world steam applications don't use compressors or pumps, just nozzles and pressure (compressing steam is a HUGE inefficiency) The realistic way to do this is with an *efficient* condenser/boiler, something I still challenge the community to build.

 

(it's possible I promise - you can make something that a few wheezeworts close the gap on waste heat if you're willing to make a large heat exchanger. Haven't made the serious attempt in ranch mk2 that it deserves)

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44 minutes ago, cpy said:

Problem is you can't pump 1000C steam without borking pumps. Seriously we are forced to use doors? SHAME! *ding ding*

You can't even do indirect cooling, because steam engine output is still above melting point of machines.

I think this was meant for the other thread, but it's entirely possible to use steam turbines without door pumps. Think outside the box. That's the entire point of the steam turbine and volcanoes, to force players to devise new and innovative things. Otherwise they are just a reskin of stuff that's already in the game so why bother?

Condense the steam. With clever engineering you can recycle the heat pulled out of the steam and put it back in. Give it a shot, expand your horizons. I find it way more rewarding to exercise my brain than to install a cheat mod.

4 minutes ago, avc15 said:

Real world steam applications don't use compressors or pumps, just nozzles and pressure. The realistic way to do this is with an *efficient* condenser/boiler, something I still challenge the community to build.

 

(it's possible I promise - you can make something that a few wheezeworts close the gap on waste heat if you're willing to make a large heat exchanger. Haven't made the serious attempt in ranch mk2 that it deserves)

Heh, same post same time. I've been toying with the idea off and on, I'll probably do it eventually if for no other reason than to prove it can be done.

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