Please do something to improve the dupe AI a tiny bit...

[Ambaire]

After the shenanigans I went through in my latest colony starting out, I am just completely fed up and exasperated with the state of dupe AI right now.

If I'm trying to dig/build a vertical ladder with a space to either side, I should not have to micro dig 4 tiles then build ladder 4 tiles just so they don't constantly move back and forth and do something on the other side of the colony only to come back for digging the next tile.

They should intelligently dig as far as they can reach from the ladder and then build all ladder sections in reach.

Same goes for anything else like this. Build request for a door in terrain then some stuff behind the door? Just DIG the door space and stuff past and let builders come behind and build stuff. I should not have to wait for the builder to deliver stuff and then dig the door and then the diggers finally dig the stuff past.

 

Basically, if I do a build request and there are terrain tiles on the build site, the dupes should always dig the tiles first, not wander off to do something else and then oh hey there's something to do here.

 

And please, please, make the dupes stop standing on tiles that other dupes are digging. Or attempting to dig a falling sand block for multiple seconds until it finishes falling well out of their reach.

 

Also, do some kind of periodic check every few seconds for new jobs near the dupes and don't have them wander all the way back to base from a remote site. Have them detect 'oh hey there's something new here, cancel the lower priority errand they're heading back to base to do and do the higher priority new thing'.

 

I'm ashamed to say it, but I rage deleted the game from my steam account after this latest batch of utter stupidity from the dupes. Maybe I'll rebuy it in half a year or a year or whatever when this stuff has been fixed but it is just unplayable for me right now.

And I'll bet a lot of other players would like these improvements made, as well.

[crypticorb]

28 minutes ago, Ambaire said:

They should intelligently dig as far as they can reach from the ladder and then build all ladder sections in reach.

Same goes for anything else like this. Build request for a door in terrain then some stuff behind the door? Just DIG the door space and stuff past and let builders come behind and build stuff. I should not have to wait for the builder to deliver stuff and then dig the door and then the diggers finally dig the stuff past.

Basically, if I do a build request and there are terrain tiles on the build site, the dupes should always dig the tiles first, not wander off to do something else and then oh hey there's something to do here.

They did add this, try using the new priorities system, check the "Advanced Mode" box. This allows dupes to do exactly what you described, rather than a hidden auto-priority that smooths out the early game experience when things have all the same priority level, but early game players need things like life support or other critical things done first.

Advanced Mode allows you to have finer control over your duplicants, giving them set jobs and priorities for certain tasks, or such as simultaneous delivery and construction, and to complete tasks by proximity first, and priority second.

[Oozinator]

7 hours ago, Ambaire said:

If I'm trying to dig/build a vertical ladder with a space to either side, I should not have to micro dig 4 tiles then build ladder 4 tiles just so they don't constantly move back and forth and do something on the other side of the colony only to come back for digging the next tile.

 

Dupes obey your orders, when you not plan ahead..

7 hours ago, Ambaire said:

I'm ashamed to say it, but I rage deleted the game from my steam account after this latest batch of utter stupidity from the dupes. Maybe I'll rebuy it in half a year or a year or whatever when this stuff has been fixed but it is just unplayable for me right now.

And I'll bet a lot of other players would like these improvements made, as well.

I don't understand why you should rebuy it, after deleting?
 

[Ambaire]

10 hours ago, crypticorb said:

They did add this, try using the new priorities system, check the "Advanced Mode" box. This allows dupes to do exactly what you described, rather than a hidden auto-priority that smooths out the early game experience when things have all the same priority level, but early game players need things like life support or other critical things done first.

Advanced Mode allows you to have finer control over your duplicants, giving them set jobs and priorities for certain tasks, or such as simultaneous delivery and construction, and to complete tasks by proximity first, and priority second.

That never helped for the situations I'm describing. 

 

edit: Here, I'll give you an example. Find a terrain wall with un-dug tiles behind it. Try building a line of 4 airlocks. One dupe will deliver the materials, then they will dig out that tile, then build it while waiting for a dupe to deliver materials to the next, etc.

 

You can put Dig as high as you want and they will never dig building tiles that haven't been delivered to yet. It needs to be changed.

 

The way it should work is the dupes dig the entire line of tiles while any designated suppliers/builders start working on building the doors.

3 hours ago, Oozinator said:

Dupes obey your orders, when you not plan ahead..

I expect a basic level of competence. If I've designated something to be built and there are terrain tiles blocking the site, always dig the tiles first and worry about supplying materials second.

 

Perhaps make this a toggle somewhere in the interface? I suppose when digging down / doing ladders down, sometimes waiting for materials to be delivered first so construction can occur immediately might be useful, but the dig/supply/build tasks need to be separated. Diggers DIG the area for the construction tiles, suppliers SUPPLY materials, builders BUILD the tiles. And it should be possible for DIGGING to take place before the SUPPLY.

[DyingCrow]

I sort of agree with this, in a way. Ive noticed several situations where i issue an order to dig some tiles, and a nearby dupe digs one, then walks off, Then a dupes comes from somewhere, digs a couple, them walks off. Then another comes by and finishes it. This is where the problem is. If its in a remote location, its a huge issue. If theyre using luxurious exosuits, its even more critical, because theyre using them for nothing. Task assignment needs some work. If theres a few tiles to dig, assign one dupe to do it. Calculate how much air he has in his suit if wearing one, at a certain percentage, and if he can do it before starting to drool green stuff or take a leak.

As it is, it seems like when a task is initiated, free dupes get assigned without any checks. So you might have 5 duped digging 5 tiles out of 10 and running off, while some other 5 have been remotely assigned and are on their way. But in the meanwhile. they all have to take a leak, shower or eat, or its bed time. And the stuff didnt get done.

Priorities work nicely, but task assignments dont.

As for AI, i had something really funny, yet questionable happening today. I had this 1 tile only short shaft, with a ladder, and wanted to seal it off. Just some 5 tiles deep, somewhere i wanted to go but changed my mind. I issued an instruction to deconstruct the top ladder tile, which they did, then to build a wall tile to seal it off. One dupe comes around, goes down the pit to grab stuff, and entombs himself. Someone came by to save him. Issued the same order, build a tile, a dupe comes by, goes down the pit to grab stuff, and entombs himself. He got saved. There is a saying for this, by the way. I issued yet another order to build the goddam friggin tile, another dupe comes around, goes down the pit to grab stuff, and entombs himself. 

Just to make it clear, they ACTUALLY built the tile on their heads, all 3 of them. That looks very fishy :/

Lately ive seen a lot of stupidity on the dupe side. Building stuff on the wrong side, digging stuff on the no return side, Im quite sure at some point an AI pass was done that broke something. Self entombment and dupes running in the same spot is also clear evidence that something is not quite right.

[Ambaire]

1 hour ago, DyingCrow said:

Lately ive seen a lot of stupidity on the dupe side. Building stuff on the wrong side, digging stuff on the no return side, Im quite sure at some point an AI pass was done that broke something. Self entombment and dupes running in the same spot is also clear evidence that something is not quite right.

It's getting to the point where I think they should stop doing new features and just focus on rewriting the AI so it behaves as a reasonable person would expect. This is the sort of thing that should not wait for final polishing for release.. it's a fundamental problem with the current state of the game.

[DyingCrow]

Just now, Ambaire said:

It's getting to the point where I think they should stop doing new features and just focus on rewriting the AI so it behaves as a reasonable person would expect. This is the sort of thing that should not wait for final polishing for release.. it's a fundamental problem with the current state of the game.

I agree. However, after my last post i was thinking if this hasnt been done on purpose. There are not a lot of things right now that can kill dupes. I recall the time when hatches were aggressive, for example. Right now, besides dupe stupidity, there is nothing that can kill them. Slimelung is annoying, but not deadly, if youre prepared for, which you should. Maybe dupes are stupid on purpose, dunno. I do find myself counting heads at bedtime to see of someones missing. If i get a confirmation that this intended behavior, im totally fine with it, really

[TheExceed]

On 4/5/2018 at 4:23 AM, Ambaire said:

If I'm trying to dig/build a vertical ladder with a space to either side, I should not have to micro dig 4 tiles then build ladder 4 tiles just so they don't constantly move back and forth and do something on the other side of the colony only to come back for digging the next tile.

They should intelligently dig as far as they can reach from the ladder and then build all ladder sections in reach.

Same goes for anything else like this. Build request for a door in terrain then some stuff behind the door? Just DIG the door space and stuff past and let builders come behind and build stuff. I should not have to wait for the builder to deliver stuff and then dig the door and then the diggers finally dig the stuff past.

Basically, if I do a build request and there are terrain tiles on the build site, the dupes should always dig the tiles first, not wander off to do something else and then oh hey there's something to do here.

There are some small things:
building a structure when their body is within the build
jumping across a two gap to get stuck after digging.
jump back up when digging straight down

Supplying a build then digging it then building it is a good way to trap early gas pockets. I don't think this should be changed. Digging before supplying can lead to way more dupes getting stuck.

On 4/5/2018 at 4:23 AM, Ambaire said:

Also, do some kind of periodic check every few seconds for new jobs near the dupes and don't have them wander all the way back to base from a remote site. Have them detect 'oh hey there's something new here, cancel the lower priority errand they're heading back to base to do and do the higher priority new thing'.

This can be achieved by using advanced priorities and/or proper jobs and/or a door a removing perms to enter. Dupes will go back to base when they need to eat/**** before anything else. Just got to learn how to micromanage and use priorities properly.

[TG pro]

just a bit? seriously?

[Ricordis]

My concers are more about interrupts to anything:

A Dupe in MedBay standing up to breath and is not longer targetable for another Dupe to care for or they stop eating for that breathing animation.

In many cases I wish Dupes wouldn't lose focus instantly if they need to pee, eat, sleep or whatever.

[TheExceed]

Yeah and dropping resources when running for oxygen or food or bathroom. 

[TG pro]

a well known issue...

[Kazumiya]

Best annoying thing is when they don't want to pick up ressources in my WATER TANK, those cowards ! "unreachable" my ass yes...

[Kasuha]

1 hour ago, Kazumiya said:

Best annoying thing is when they don't want to pick up ressources in my WATER TANK, those cowards ! "unreachable" my ass yes...

Exosuits solve that problem. Though I must agree it's funny they can hold their breath for half a cycle but won't walk more than 5 tiles under water without exosuits.

[TG pro]

I see a meme coming...

 

[TheExceed]

I do hope they allow dupes to carry more than 1 resource.
Or better yet, add a backpack to the textile loom!
Allows carrying of multiple resources and +500Kg carry capacity.
I want super tidiers!

[crypticorb]

2 minutes ago, TheExceed said:

I do hope they allow dupes to carry more than 1 resource.
Or better yet, add a backpack to the textile loom!
Allows carrying of multiple resources and +500Kg carry capacity.
I want super tidiers!

Now THIS sounds awesome! Backpacks for dupes sounds like an excellent way to boost productivity, and still be fairly well balanced with the current job system, and give the textile loom something useful other than just snazzy suits. All the rest of the clothing is useless.

A possible recipe: 4x Reed Fiber, 50kg plastic

At the point where you would really need something like this, plastic should be available, and there really needs to be more endgame motivations for dupes.

[TheExceed]

1 hour ago, crypticorb said:

Now THIS sounds awesome! Backpacks for dupes sounds like an excellent way to boost productivity, and still be fairly well balanced with the current job system, and give the textile loom something useful other than just snazzy suits. All the rest of the clothing is useless.

A possible recipe: 4x Reed Fiber, 50kg plastic

At the point where you would really need something like this, plastic should be available, and there really needs to be more endgame motivations for dupes.

Mhm. Could even have backpacks for different things.They could also stop dupes from dropping resources when they need to poop or eat
Medic Backpack: allows the dupe not to become infected by diseased resources
Collector Backpack: increased capacity
Multi Backpack: carry multiple resources
Farmers Backpack: Faster farming/fertilizing

[Mariilyn]

21 hours ago, DyingCrow said:

Ive noticed several situations where i issue an order to dig some tiles, and a nearby dupe digs one, then walks off, Then a dupes comes from somewhere, digs a couple, them walks off. Then another comes by and finishes it. This is where the problem is.

They are supposed to select the nearest task available in advanced mode. Ordering a new task after a dupe began moving to some location to execute a lower sub-priority task, means that they will go dig one tile and come back to do the newest more urgent task, because they don't interrupt themselves in the middle of a task to change. So it kinda comes down to proper organisation.

When I dont feel like reviewing my priorities or managing individual door accesses I just use temporary one-way doors. Its also possible to set a one-way door leading to a remote building site, and an automated second door for coming back that unlock at dinner time.

I also noticed that when certain building errands would take an unnaturally long time to get done, it was usually when the dupes have to get materials very far away in a different exosuit zone. So it may rather be a problem of exosuit unavailability, as if there is no exosuit available at any time during the dupe's errand, the path to their destination will be blocked and I assume will interrupt the errand ?

So it might be a good habit to set up enough exosuit docks at each zone entrances, build with local materials and store other construction materials in an easily accessible location or directly on the building site.

On 05/04/2018 at 4:30 PM, Ambaire said:

You can put Dig as high as you want and they will never dig building tiles that haven't been delivered to yet. It needs to be changed.

Its not always perfect but I prefer it this way because buildings are built as soon as the tiles are dug up (all my diggers are also builders).

 

[DyingCrow]

1 minute ago, Mariilyn said:

They are supposed to select the nearest task available in advanced mode..

The problem may be too many idle dupes, and tasks get distributed between them, no matter where they are. Ive gotten my head wrapped around restricting not only shower times, but also toilet and food. Or build porta potties near the work site, hoping they dont run across the map to use the furthest possible. Either way, its a sensible thing to do.

Maybe this is all intended, and part of the dupe management meta game.

 

[crypticorb]

22 minutes ago, DyingCrow said:

The problem may be too many idle dupes, and tasks get distributed between them, no matter where they are. Ive gotten my head wrapped around restricting not only shower times, but also toilet and food. Or build porta potties near the work site, hoping they dont run across the map to use the furthest possible. Either way, its a sensible thing to do.

Maybe this is all intended, and part of the dupe management meta game.

 

Oh wow. I never thought of restricting access to toilets and food. That would boost productivity by a huge amount if I could use a clock timer and automation to effectively schedule a dinner time and toilet time for duplicants, to prevent them from ever interrupting themselves mid-task to go eat or take a dump.

Might take some fine tuning to make sure they don't wet themselves or starve, but if I don't have any "bottomless stomach" or "small bladder" dupes this is an awesome strategy.

Side topic, are showers still completely useless? It says it removes the "grimy" status and kills germs, but still seems a waste of water/time.

[DyingCrow]

45 minutes ago, crypticorb said:

Oh wow. I never thought of restricting access to toilets and food. That would boost productivity by a huge amount if I could use a clock timer and automation to effectively schedule a dinner time and toilet time for duplicants, to prevent them from ever interrupting themselves mid-task to go eat or take a dump.

Might take some fine tuning to make sure they don't wet themselves or starve, but if I don't have any "bottomless stomach" or "small bladder" dupes this is an awesome strategy.

Side topic, are showers still completely useless? It says it removes the "grimy" status and kills germs, but still seems a waste of water/time.

I wouldnt recommend doing it as standard situation, but if you have a big project that needs to be done, by all means.

Showers, as far as i know, are only qol stuff, they dont really do anything relevant right now. Dupes will take multiple showers a day if doing stuff in a messy place without suits, and will go to bed grimy. Go figure. I let them take a shower in the end of the cycle, if they miss it, well, too bad. Since showers is a 1:1 water/pwater ratio and my sieves are constantly running anyways, i dont mind having them.

[BlueLance]

Also, I don't really have the issue the OP has, My miner usually just mines everything out then goes onto the next mining job, then my construction dupe just waltzes in delivers the stuff then builds (I dont have a supply dupe, I assume if i did he would fill it in instead)