Gooblender Posted February 7, 2018 Share Posted February 7, 2018 You guys might have thought of this already, but for those that haven't I thought I would share this circuit for fully charging your battery bank before shutting down the generators. Took a while to sort the logic and I may have accidentally killed 4 of my dupes in its making (I may have inadvertently left it off pause and on rapid speed while zoomed In and on automation overlay when my wife came home and I went downstairs for half an hour) but it now fully charges large batteries on the battery bank before shutting down the generator. In theory you can connect both logic gates to one switch and do away with one nor gate but I wanted to see how each logic circuit behaved when I was making it and haven't had time to remove them. I'm down to 3 dupes, no oxygen, no food and limited water but I'm sure I can bring it back from the brink. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/87212-charging-your-large-batteries-to-full-with-smart-batteries/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neotuck Posted February 7, 2018 Share Posted February 7, 2018 cool design, I will try this in my colony Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/87212-charging-your-large-batteries-to-full-with-smart-batteries/#findComment-1000554 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neotuck Posted February 10, 2018 Share Posted February 10, 2018 I tried your smart battery circuit today and it works great, I only noticed there would be a short delay with no power when the generators would kick back on. I fixed this by changing the active when charged parameters from 0% to 1% on both batteries Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/87212-charging-your-large-batteries-to-full-with-smart-batteries/#findComment-1002195 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SamLogan Posted February 10, 2018 Share Posted February 10, 2018 Given battery drain electricity over time, I think it's a bad idea to play with full battery intead of with just enough electricity. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/87212-charging-your-large-batteries-to-full-with-smart-batteries/#findComment-1002220 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saturnus Posted February 10, 2018 Share Posted February 10, 2018 21 minutes ago, SamLogan said: Given battery drain electricity over time, I think it's a bad idea to play with full battery intead of with just enough electricity. I concur. Though the idea is interesting I'm not sure what purpose it serves. If it's to avoid downtime if the dupes are too busy to fill up the coal generator in time then usually just adjusting the standby percentage on the smart battery would serve the same purpose. Or having 2 smart batteries, or having another coal generator. You could also have a flip flop on the coal generators so each time the smart battery requests power, it will switch which coal generator is active, making it very unlikely both will run out at the same time. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/87212-charging-your-large-batteries-to-full-with-smart-batteries/#findComment-1002230 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gooblender Posted February 10, 2018 Author Share Posted February 10, 2018 The purpose of it is to prevent over production in that that it creates a shut off for the coal generators to avoid wasted coal. The size of the bank attached to it is relatively small such that it acts as a buffer to the power generators rather than long term storage. The discharge on the batteries is minuscule compared to the saved coal and allows for power averaging so the system can cope with spikes in consumption better. Granted when you are talking natural gas generators it may be more limited but it serves a purpose with a semi finite fuel source. I find it works well where peak demand outstrips the general demand and at the same time prevents having extra batteries generating heat. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/87212-charging-your-large-batteries-to-full-with-smart-batteries/#findComment-1002233 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saturnus Posted February 10, 2018 Share Posted February 10, 2018 25 minutes ago, Gooblender said: The purpose of it is to prevent over production in that that it creates a shut off for the coal generators to avoid wasted coal. The size of the bank attached to it is relatively small such that it acts as a buffer to the power generators rather than long term storage. The discharge on the batteries is minuscule compared to the saved coal and allows for power averaging so the system can cope with spikes in consumption better. Granted when you are talking natural gas generators it may be more limited but it serves a purpose with a semi finite fuel source. I find it works well where peak demand outstrips the general demand and at the same time prevents having extra batteries generating heat. The point @SamLogan and I are making is that you waste more coal with your method. That's why we don't see the purpose of it. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/87212-charging-your-large-batteries-to-full-with-smart-batteries/#findComment-1002241 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gooblender Posted February 10, 2018 Author Share Posted February 10, 2018 Can you please explain your reasoning on that one, my thoughts are that it's 5% daily drain per battery so I if you can use half the batteries there is less drain on the system as a whole over time. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/87212-charging-your-large-batteries-to-full-with-smart-batteries/#findComment-1002248 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saturnus Posted February 10, 2018 Share Posted February 10, 2018 7 minutes ago, Gooblender said: Can you please explain your reasoning on that one, my thoughts are that it's 5% daily drain per battery so I if you can use half the batteries there is less drain on the system as a whole over time. No. That's where you are wrong. It's a fixed Joule discharge, not a percentage. A smart battery discharge is 400J/cycle. A large battery is 2KJ/cycle. And a tiny battery is 1KJ/cycle. If all batteries are full that's comparable to 2%, 5% and 10% discharge respectively. That's why using large batteries aren't a good idea and will waste more power. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/87212-charging-your-large-batteries-to-full-with-smart-batteries/#findComment-1002253 Share on other sites More sharing options...
magei Posted February 10, 2018 Share Posted February 10, 2018 So much simpler way NGG plant > Smart Battery > Transformer > Battery bank > Distribution transformers This is basically just my oxygen generation plant but the principle is the same (Smart battery for each different gen) So the hydrogen gens will run to a higher charge and coal gens kick in should the power get too low seeing as I have to burn off excess hydrogen in my oxygen room anyway might as well put it to use rather than been wasted coal and hydrogen Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/87212-charging-your-large-batteries-to-full-with-smart-batteries/#findComment-1002270 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neotuck Posted February 11, 2018 Share Posted February 11, 2018 @Saturnus @SamLogan I think the main benefit of Smart batteries is to save fuel, not power. I agree it's pointless for coal, but what about other fuel? Before the update I usually would run 3 natural gas generators per geyser. any more and I risk draining the geyser too fast causing power downtime while I waited for the geyser to refill But after I used smart batteries to shut off the generators whenever all the batteries are full I am able to save a lot of gas. I so far have 6 generators on one geyser and I still haven't drained it down too low Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/87212-charging-your-large-batteries-to-full-with-smart-batteries/#findComment-1002750 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saturnus Posted February 11, 2018 Share Posted February 11, 2018 14 minutes ago, Neotuck said: @Saturnus @SamLogan I think the main benefit of Smart batteries is to save fuel, not power. I agree it's pointless for coal, but what about other fuel? Fuel = power so it's the same for any power producer really. Except ones that doesn't strictly really on a fuel per say which is really only hamster wheels and steam turbines. You can't just throttle down a steam turbine once started so you pretty much have to use the power it generates, or it's lost. But I think you missed the point. We're saying that having large batteries is a waste of power (and fuel) when you have smart batteries. The OP here presented a system to charge large batteries from smart batteries. It is that we don't see a point in as it wastes more power than not having the large batteries at all. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/87212-charging-your-large-batteries-to-full-with-smart-batteries/#findComment-1002755 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neotuck Posted February 11, 2018 Share Posted February 11, 2018 1 minute ago, Saturnus said: Fuel = power so it's the same for any power producer really. Except ones that doesn't strictly really on a fuel per say which is really on hamster wheels and steam turbines. You can't just throttle down a steam turbine once started so you pretty much have to use the power it generates, or it's lost. wouldn't you be saving steam and heat when it shuts off? I haven't exactly made a working steam turbine just yet but when I do I plan to post it Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/87212-charging-your-large-batteries-to-full-with-smart-batteries/#findComment-1002756 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saturnus Posted February 11, 2018 Share Posted February 11, 2018 Just now, Neotuck said: wouldn't you be saving steam and heat when it shuts off? I haven't exactly made a working steam turbine just yet but when I do I plan to post it Nah. That's not how it works really. You have to so many systems running to support it that's not practically possible to have a shut off system outside debug mode. And if left off for a while it would take a long time to get up to operating temperature again unless you're already running it much hotter than it should (thereby wasting tonnes and tonnes of magma). Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/87212-charging-your-large-batteries-to-full-with-smart-batteries/#findComment-1002758 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neotuck Posted February 11, 2018 Share Posted February 11, 2018 1 minute ago, Saturnus said: Nah. That's not how it works really. You have to so many systems running to support it that's not practically possible to have a shut off system outside debug mode. And if left off for a while it would take a long time to get up to operating temperature again unless you're already running it much hotter than it should (thereby wasting tonnes and tonnes of magma). I planned to make a boiler down in the lava biome itself and use doors to control the heat, I figured it would be easier to build there than to have dups carry bottles of lava Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/87212-charging-your-large-batteries-to-full-with-smart-batteries/#findComment-1002762 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saturnus Posted February 11, 2018 Share Posted February 11, 2018 Just now, Neotuck said: I planned to make a boiler down in the lava biome itself and use doors to control the heat, I figured it would be easier to build there than to have dups carry bottles of lava Not a good idea. The magma will quite quickly turn to igneous rock and then you have to move the entire set up. Much easier and better to pump the magma to the set up instead. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/87212-charging-your-large-batteries-to-full-with-smart-batteries/#findComment-1002763 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lutzkhie Posted February 11, 2018 Share Posted February 11, 2018 i only use 1 smart battery and directly hook it up with the generator to turn it off when full to save more coal Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/87212-charging-your-large-batteries-to-full-with-smart-batteries/#findComment-1002766 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saturnus Posted February 11, 2018 Share Posted February 11, 2018 1 minute ago, Lutzkhie said: i only use 1 smart battery and directly hook it up with the generator to turn it off when full to save more coal Exactly. That is the way that wastes least power as we're saying. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/87212-charging-your-large-batteries-to-full-with-smart-batteries/#findComment-1002767 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neotuck Posted February 11, 2018 Share Posted February 11, 2018 Just now, Saturnus said: Not a good idea. The magma will quite quickly turn to igneous rock and then you have to move the entire set up. Much easier and better to pump the magma to the set up instead. worked in debug mode, the only thing directly touching the magma would be steel tiles made of tungsten and I would have doors pull heat from those 8 minutes ago, Saturnus said: Exactly. That is the way that wastes least power as we're saying. are you saying using any batteries at all is a waste? Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/87212-charging-your-large-batteries-to-full-with-smart-batteries/#findComment-1002768 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saturnus Posted February 11, 2018 Share Posted February 11, 2018 7 minutes ago, Neotuck said: worked in debug mode, the only thing directly touching the magma would be steel tiles made of tungsten and I would have doors pull heat from those There's a big difference between setting up a quick working principle model and a long term test. Not to mention how it would work in a survival game. It would be a nightmare to constantly have to deconstruct the metal tiles, dig out the too cool igneous rock, and setting it all up again a few tiles lower where there is fresh magma. All the while having less and less gain as the thermal conductor gets longer and longer. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/87212-charging-your-large-batteries-to-full-with-smart-batteries/#findComment-1002776 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neotuck Posted February 11, 2018 Share Posted February 11, 2018 1 minute ago, Saturnus said: There's a big difference between setting up a quick working principle model and a long term test. Not to mention how it would work in a survival game. It would be a nightmare to constantly have to deconstruct the metal tiles, dig out the too cool igneous rock, and setting it all up again a few tiles lower where there is fresh magma. All the while having less and less gain as the thermal conductor gets longer and longer. you might be right but I want to test it anyways. I'll post tonight if it works Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/87212-charging-your-large-batteries-to-full-with-smart-batteries/#findComment-1002780 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lifegrow Posted February 11, 2018 Share Posted February 11, 2018 4 hours ago, Saturnus said: There's a big difference between setting up a quick working principle model and a long term test. Not to mention how it would work in a survival game. It would be a nightmare to constantly have to deconstruct the metal tiles, dig out the too cool igneous rock, and setting it all up again a few tiles lower where there is fresh magma. All the while having less and less gain as the thermal conductor gets longer and longer. I'll echo this Sometimes a proof of concept stays as just that when it's a toss up between an hour or two in debug, or a 40 hour build in normal Just the travel time from your base to magma can eat huge amounts of your active dupe time. 4 hours ago, Neotuck said: I planned to make a boiler down in the lava biome itself and use doors to control the heat, I figured it would be easier to build there than to have dups carry bottles of lava If you're going to do something like this, the only real viable solution is to make a remote "hermit base" where you can have your builders/diggers assigned to the build live whilst it's being constructed. That means you need a mini-base that's temp regulated, plumbed, powered and fed... That in itself takes time. Again - not impossible, just a lot of work. Personally i'd build it closer to home, and have 1-2 dupes permanently assigned to moving the magma via a vacuum system of tubes (although I havn't tested if held items, i.e. a bottle of magma transfers heat to tubes... I assume within a vacuum it wouldn't...). Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/87212-charging-your-large-batteries-to-full-with-smart-batteries/#findComment-1002853 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Plum Gate Posted February 11, 2018 Share Posted February 11, 2018 On 2/10/2018 at 10:25 AM, Gooblender said: The purpose of it is to prevent over production in that that it creates a shut off for the coal generators to avoid wasted coal. The size of the bank attached to it is relatively small such that it acts as a buffer to the power generators rather than long term storage. The discharge on the batteries is minuscule compared to the saved coal and allows for power averaging so the system can cope with spikes in consumption better. Granted when you are talking natural gas generators it may be more limited but it serves a purpose with a semi finite fuel source. I find it works well where peak demand outstrips the general demand and at the same time prevents having extra batteries generating heat. I have found that 4 smart batteries and 2 coal generators - where one of the smart batteries controls the generators is more than enough for low demand loads on 2kw lines. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/87212-charging-your-large-batteries-to-full-with-smart-batteries/#findComment-1002929 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saturnus Posted February 11, 2018 Share Posted February 11, 2018 4 minutes ago, The Plum Gate said: I have found that 4 smart batteries and 2 coal generators - where one of the smart batteries controls the generators is more than enough for low demand loads on 2kw lines. In that case I'd rather have one smart battery and 3 coal generators to be honest. 8 hours ago, Neotuck said: are you saying using any batteries at all is a waste? Pretty much. As few as you can get away with really. Everything else is indeed a waste. Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/87212-charging-your-large-batteries-to-full-with-smart-batteries/#findComment-1002932 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neotuck Posted February 11, 2018 Share Posted February 11, 2018 4 minutes ago, Saturnus said: Pretty much. As few as you can get away with really. Everything else is indeed a waste. you sure? as I see it if I run without batteries then I need to make sure my power grid is an EXACT 1 to 1 ratio of power generated and used. however maintaining it at 1:1 seems to be impossible as not all machines that require power are on 24/7 and when they are off there is a huge power wasted using a grid with batteries was no help ether as once they were fully charged then the extra power from the generators was wasted but when using smart batteries to turn off the generators it reduced the waste by A LOT! only waste I saw was loss from the batteries overtime I checked the daily report and numbers don't lie Link to comment https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/87212-charging-your-large-batteries-to-full-with-smart-batteries/#findComment-1002942 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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