Pressure Upgrade

[pacumos]

When the automation upgrade first launched, I saw all over the place people building all sorts of compressors, those which I thought to myself "Oh boy, there we go making some ******* giant refrigerators and stuff", I've got quite disappointed when I noticed it wasn't possible, the "Pressure vs Temperature" relation doesn't exist in this game.
    Then I saw the happening of deleting gases with doors, **** dammit, this is a big exploit that doesn't seem will be fixed any time soon, and knowing the processes of developing and applying concepts, I've decided to give some help or another perspective into trying to solve this problem.
(The following texts were created with the intent of popping ideas into our dear developers and presenting a new born update which in hypothesis is(it's not) already on the game, not expressing the truth into any kind, except on the physical explanations if there will be any, idk I'm writing it at the start)
    The update isn't called "Pressure Upgrade" for nothing, the central theme it evolves is pressure, starting by adding the "P v T" relation I mentioned before, it can be achieved by calculating the velocity in which a tile of gas got increased in pressure, then adding the respective amount on temperature and the opposite is true, when depressurized (releasing compressed gases on a low pressure environment), will get things cooler. Processes like that require create energy on pressurizers (that will not be included) for example and creates energy (the temperature gain).
    I immediately started to solve the problem with deletion of matter, the doors now will no longer move the gasses to the immediate vicinity, they'll sort of "hold" the gases into itself to around 2 kg of pressure (the door could not be built next to other gas blocking structure too as an alternative, but I've thought could be too much trouble making), so they wouldn't need to try to throw the gases, preventing those types of "wormhole" sucking machine. You could be thinking "How can we move gases and stuff now ?", I present to you the "thingy that somewhat pushes stuff around" (don't have a name, open to suggestions), it looks like those sharp scalpel with pointy edge, works like a door, can be used like a door (but can't specify who can pass through), and pushes fluids (including gases and liquid, of course) to the opposite side of the pointy edge. It requires power, at the end of all it can and will be utilized to pressurize fluids.
    On a nice and sunny evening, with some grapes around the corner, I grabbed one and tossed on a cup nearby, well, at leas I tried, but a voracious wind with all the intentions of preventing that grape from being unused, thrown away, I know that, I can hear them whistling "not on my turn, *****", it blows my ******* grape, oh boy, not only that but a slightly smell of fish comes though the window, "Oh god, polluted oxygen" I thought, "Why there is nothing like that on the game", a mechanism that blows gases (there would be something similar for liquids too, but a different building, textures and etc), a "giant" fan of 2 tiles long that keeps pushing gas forward "But they can't add sporadic things like that", I opposed, well, that's the opportunity that like the grape can be blown around the corner.
    We are not going to add a pressurized building, or are we. We don't have a solid point about that but we're pretty sure we don't, do we? If so, we need to add high pressure pipes for both liquids and gases, alternating between high and low pressure pipes will result on alternation of temperature and even state of matter depending on the liquid, or do they? That's a more complex subject, let's not go too much into those, we need practical solutions that don't take and entire month to be accomplished, yes? No?
    Moving on, we have a brand new structure called "whatever the name it needs to make a vacuum" (accept suggestions), it can suck gases from small rooms creating a vacuum (or near it, "mg"), uses a lot of power because it's fast (needs to work the same speed as manual airlocks, maybe a bit longer), 4 tile kinda structure, the design seems like 3 "2 tiles fan" (I really need a name) stacked one on top of another; not the exact concept, of course, you get the idea; only gets activated by noticing that the small room bellow isn't on vacuum or close to that, have automation as it should, and blocks the top when the work is done, I think I don't need to explain why.
    Adding a building called "pressurizer structure" (help), it takes a lot of refined metal, tons of them, after all it will create pressure with those materials. It will make recipes like diamond with coal, or the opposite of the crusher, the idea is not exactly into mind about what can it make, but yeah, things like that, things that in real life needs pressure to be made and we have the resources on the game. The structure need low quantities of power and generate some heat. It have a gas input to put things like natural gas or carbon dioxide to merge into sand or dirt to create fertilizer or phosphorite, don't have it quite set, but what we know for sure is that it will have only one gas input and a lot of possibilities, and that's the cool part.
    We present to you, our newest technology, we called it "three way gas thingy" ( ), it takes 3 inputs of gases and have only one output, a duplicant needs to operate for it to work, you can set the exact amount you want to pass through or an automated thing integrated to the machine it belongs to (our initial intent being the "pressurizer structure"), it requires power and provides decor because it's futuristic idk.
    
    Now this is just a tweak, but half the resource amount of insulated stuff and replace it with 4 reed fiber or around that. I've suggested it on another tread but I thought would be handy here too.

That's it, I hope you like it. Open to discussion, as I always am.

[PhailRaptor]

Wall of text crits for over 9000....

[pacumos]

I planned to do more, but even I started to perceive the exorbitant amount of text.

[pacumos]

I forgot to mention that the door featured in this update dies not close when there's something obstructing the gas push flow. Open doors does not count as obstruction.

[asveron]

It's probably a good idea to summarize your points to make it readable. A lot of sentences sound like fluff lol...

Seems like a cup of dough stretched out to make 5 XL pizzas.

Why would you write a disclaimer for a wall of text that makes it a even larger wall of text, sigh...

[pacumos]

Oh boy, an actual reviewer. What do you found uninteresting or not entertaining?

[SamLogan]

n.a.

[pacumos]

@SamLogan What ?

@asveron I summon you.

[SamLogan]

@pacumos It's not the subject of your post? I'm not able to read it.

 

[pacumos]

@SamLogan Nah, the post is about a hypothetical upgrade for Oxygen not Included. By the way, why you're not able to read it? Appreciate your reply right away.

[SamLogan]

@ pacumos 'cause it's too long

[Maciej75]

On 4.02.2018 at 3:38 AM, pacumos said:

"Pressure vs Temperature"

Not sure if whole post was about this, but games like ONI, including some notable examples like "Kerbal Space Program", have to use some kind of "bended physics" to make it computationally possible and/or fun.

So what we DO HAVE here:

• "thermo" - temperatures propagate more or less, but realistically, there is (bended) Entropy in game
• "dynamic" - masses of gases and liquids moves moves realistically (with reservation to space quantum that is one tile) 

What we DO NOT have here:

• "thermodynamic" - simply speaking, there is no pressure, only mass in tile; physically speaking, there is no internal gas energy that presents itself by pressure and processes known  Isothermal / Isobar / Isochoric / Adiabatic

And we have to accept this reality (as game has to simulate whole world, this limits map size). This works quite good, as long as simplification are "hidden behind the wall". For an example, the fridge / thermoregulatros / aqua-something use internally Adiabatic process that not exists in game, but this is hidden inside and invisible. So having those appliances provided as "black box", makes this game look realistically and give fun from playing with physics.

Problem arises, when someone, supposingly not aware of bended physics in game, tried to create appliance called "turbine", that in real world releases internal energy of gas.

But gas in game do not have internal energy! To compress a real gas, you need to provide energy. To store a more gas mass in ONI, it is enough to install non-powered Vent ot High Pressure Gas Vent. Even two connected gas pipes, transferring 500g of gas each, summarize it to 1000g with no additional energy. The main difference between "pressure" and "mass in tile" is, that pressure have energy that was stored in gas and can be released in turbine, "mass in tile" have no energy. So attempts to release internal energy from gas focus only on energy stored in gas heat, creating anti-Entropy turbine

But problem is not game engine, ir is quite playable! Problem is that IMHO Turbine operations should be hidden "behind the wall".

So instead thermo-dynamic turbine we should have thermo-without-dynamic "steam engine", that should intake water and some hot heater, and output steam and cooled down heater; the pressurized steam and turbine logic hidden "behind the wall". Such tool would be pro-Entropy, as cooling down heater would be accompanied by warming water.

 

[Oozinator]

On 4.2.2018 at 3:38 AM, pacumos said:

...
    On a nice and sunny evening, with some grapes around the corner, I grabbed one and tossed on a cup nearby, well, at leas I tried, but a voracious wind with all the intentions of preventing that grape from being unused..

You could build electrolyzers and feed the hydrogen to the slicksters in the oil biome!

[pacumos]

21 hours ago, Oozinator said:

You could build electrolyzers and feed the hydrogen to the slicksters in the oil biome!

I could what ?

[pacumos]

Another machine! A machine that can have some gas and metal input to pressurize gases into a container that can be delivered to another machine that empties this said container into gas tubes delivering to other machines that the tubes are connected to, of course. For it to get a input, it needs to be assigned on what to make, following the same principles of "pressurizer structure" cited above, working amazingly with that three way gas structure.

Edit: Just noticed that it wouldn't be viable to have metal input, but to create another machine that makes those containers, and said containers would be the needed input for the "gas storage pressurizer" thing.

[Oozinator]

On 9.2.2018 at 9:09 PM, pacumos said:

I could what ?

Mhh not sure.
^^

[Master Miner]

On 9.2.2018 at 12:02 AM, Maciej75 said:

there is no pressure, only mass in tile

Given the volume, mass and temperature implies pressure. In some aspects the game does calculate the pressure and we have the effects, like tiles cracking below a liquid because there is high gas pressure over the liquid.

When compressing gas, one does use some energy (pump) but it does not increase with the pressure.

Nevertheless, a part of the energy associated with the gas that is proportional to mass * temperature is preserved when moving gas with pumps and pipes. Adiabatic cooling and heating can be added in a simplified way, see https://forums.kleientertainment.com/topic/87707-ideal-gas-law/. This would add a lot of fun to the "playing with physics" aspect of the game.

[Maciej75]

3 hours ago, Master Miner said:

Given the volume, mass and temperature implies pressure.

Well... not here. Having some mass in some volume, I never witnessed and parameter that changes, when temperature changes.

In particular no changes in volume of gas, that could lead to pressure-driven generator, like turbine.

[Master Miner]

1 hour ago, Maciej75 said:

Well... not here. Having some mass in some volume, I never witnessed and parameter that changes, when temperature changes.

In particular no changes in volume of gas, that could lead to pressure-driven generator, like turbine.

The (implicit) pressure changes, P ~ m*T (for constant volume)
While "one gas per cell" limit remains, the gas with lower pressure will eventually combine and so reduce the occupied volume and the gas with higher pressure will expand. One missing thing that would be nice to have is change in temperature (and not only pressure) when the volume changes - like real gases behave.

[Maciej75]

12 minutes ago, Master Miner said:

the gas with lower pressure will eventually combine

Is it? I always observed that a gas with lower mass in tile will combine, that is exactly proof of lack of any pressure here.

[Master Miner]

16 hours ago, Maciej75 said:

Is it? I always observed that a gas with lower mass in tile will combine, that is exactly proof of lack of any pressure here.

Have you tested that - having two gases next to each other where the gas with lower mass has higher pressure?

Anyway, II hope that in-game physics will receive much more love in the near future.