Hamster Wheel Power

[KittenIsAGeek]

Early in my base design I ran into a problem: my power requirements exceeded my power production when heavy-draw industrial machines such as the metal refinery were in use.  By cycle 50 I had tapped in to a natural gas geyser and was using it to power two NGGs on a continual basis, so most of the time they were sufficient.  Simply throwing in some manual generators had problems that I wanted to avoid.  For example, it made the dupes spend a long time in the presence of heavi-watt wire, stressing them out.  Second, they tended to spend far too long running on the wheels and getting nothing else done.

My solution was to take a transformer and run it backwards, as has been done for the low battery sensor.  Then I could hook my hamster wheels up anywhere and run regular wire to them. So I made an exercise room:

The little bit of red near the right statue's head is because of the bad decor of heavi-watt wire "leaking" through the air vent.  But otherwise, my dupes are very happy to exercise.  To reduce the time they spent here rather than building the base, I used pressure plates to turn on and off a hydrogen generator, supplementing their power production.  Three wheels + Hydrogen generator = 2kw.  Perfect!

But, it turns out, I've got a problem.  For very short periods of time when both my metal refinery and aqua tuner are running, my transformer will dump 4kw into the system.  This tends to damage my wires.  Fortunately, it usually drops back down to 2kw before anything breaks, but I'm wondering if there's a way to prevent the problem.

I circled the "backwards" transformer.  As you can see, there are no power draws on the system other than the output to my main trunk. BTW, the central hydrogen generator is hooked up to the mains as a continual source of power.  

Any suggestions?

[BT_20]

@KittenIsAGeek I would say that the reason for damage would be the battery on the conductive wire side getting drawn while all buildings are running but if you remove the batteries it might make the dupes unable to control when they generate power.

[KittenIsAGeek]

Yes, the batteries are for control. I've found that two seems to be just about the right amount of time buffer. 

You know, I just had an idea. If I set the wheels to start when the batteries are 0, then it couldn't output more than 2kw.  Right? Because I'm wondering if the batteries have a 2kw limit AND the generators have a 2kw limit.  Time for more testing!

Nope.  No power generation, just the batteries, and draw can exceed 2kw.

[donutman07]

You can disconnect a metal refinery from the grid by giving it its own battery and a weight plate to detect when it's in use. It's very useful for limiting mazimum power draw. I use it for metal refineries and aquatuners.

[QuQuasar]

Your problem is the backwards transformer. Transformers are not a one-way street: if there’s an excess of power on a small grid, they can take that and push it up to the main grid. This is how people with solar panels on their homes can sell electricity back to the utilities without needing high-wattage electrical cables in their house.

 

If we liken wires to pipes (an imperfect analogy at best, but go with it), transformers are something akin to a pressure valve. They allow pressure (wattage) to flow between the 20k main grid and the 2k secondary grid to ensure that the small grid never has more than 2k in it.  

 

In your current system, your backwards transformer is defining the generator room as a “main grid” and pushing wattage from the actual main grid into it, which burns out your wires.

[The Flying Fox]

It use to be that this approach worked in versions of ONI in the past.  Before, ONI only cared if the buildings that created the load where on the local network.  The problem with this is that you could then build the power 'backbone' of your network on just the low tier wires just as long as you didn't have any buildings on that network creating a load above what the wire was rated for.  So, you could have all your batteries and generators on one network that hooked into the front of the transformers with standard wire, and it would work.  Basically, the transformers did not count as a 'load' before.  Obviously, this was not what the devs intended.  

 

So now, transformers count as a load but they can pull up to 4KWs through them, which means if they're hooked up with the non-heavy wire into the front of them, they wires can over-load.

[KittenIsAGeek]

Well, not exactly.  The problem only happens when there's a drain of more than 2kw

1 hour ago, QuQuasar said:

Your problem is the backwards transformer. Transformers are not a one-way street: if there’s an excess of power on a small grid, they can take that and push it up to the main grid. This is how people with solar panels on their homes can sell electricity back to the utilities without needing high-wattage electrical cables in their house.

Well, not exactly.  The problem only occurs when there is a drain on the main grid of more than 2kw while there is charge on the battery.  Meaning that the "low voltage" side of the transformer isn't actually limited by the transformer's 1kw rating.  As long as there's a drain, the transformer will try to meet it.  My power generators were limited to a maximum production of 2kw, but batteries can produce power at whatever rate the circuit needs.

On a related note, I thought about some stuff QuQuasar said and I re-worked my system a little.  It still has the hamster wheels and batteries, but now the hydrogen generator connects directly to the main.  I implemented some logic so that when either (or both) of my high drain devices are operating, the generators turn on.  This means that the dupes still occasionally run on the hamster wheels to supplement the main grid, but high-draw devices no longer put as much of a strain on the system.

[QuQuasar]

The main point I was making is this: flip your transformer around so the low wattage side connects to the exercise room, and your system will work as intended. 

[Saturnus]

What you need is to replace the transformers (and possibly the batteries as well but your choice) with a switched battery power supply

Every time you have a circuit that goes above 2KW then just string another one on anywhere. You don't ever need heavi-watt wires or transformers at all after that. You also really don't need to build a battery power bank either as you have effectively decentralized it.

[KittenIsAGeek]

34 minutes ago, QuQuasar said:

The main point I was making is this: flip your transformer around so the low wattage side connects to the exercise room, and your system will work as intended. 

No, it will not.  Because power does not go from the low voltage side to the high. This is the layout you're suggesting:

This is the layout I'm using:

However, in my case, instead of a fridge, I'm connecting the small side to my mains. I could connect my wheel to the mains directly, but then I have heavi-watt wire in the exercise room, which was the whole point I was trying to get around.

Also, Saturnus, I'm not trying to eliminate heavi-watt wire. I probably will end up placing my high-draw devices on their own isolated circuits, but again, that wasn't the problem I was trying to work around.

Here's another example: Suppose all your devices on your main grid draw a combined total of 5kw of power. Suppose that under normal circumstances, you're producing 4.8kw.  There's a very slight drain and with four or five batteries on the circuit, it only becomes a problem once every cycle or two.  Even one hamster wheel can fix this problem, but how would you connect it, without using heavi-watt wire?

[Saturnus]

3 minutes ago, KittenIsAGeek said:

However, in my case, instead of a fridge, I'm connecting the small side to my mains. I could connect my wheel to the mains directly, but then I have heavi-watt wire in the exercise room, which was the whole point I was trying to get around.

Also, Saturnus, I'm not trying to eliminate heavi-watt wire. I probably will end up placing my high-draw devices on their own isolated circuits, but again, that wasn't the problem I was trying to work around.

Here's another example: Suppose all your devices on your main grid draw a combined total of 5kw of power. Suppose that under normal circumstances, you're producing 4.8kw.  There's a very slight drain and with four or five batteries on the circuit, it only becomes a problem once every cycle or two.  Even one hamster wheel can fix this problem, but how would you connect it, without using heavi-watt wire?

It sure sounds like you are trying to avoid using heavi-watt wire which is exactly what the switched batteries completely eliminates the need for.

[KittenIsAGeek]

3 minutes ago, Saturnus said:

It sure sounds like you are trying to avoid using heavi-watt wire which is exactly what the switched batteries completely eliminates the need for.

I'm only trying to avoid heavi-watt wire for hamster wheels.  I want a "clean" exercise room.  I'll figure it out eventually.

[Saturnus]

Just now, KittenIsAGeek said:

I'm only trying to avoid heavi-watt wire for hamster wheels.  I want a "clean" exercise room.  I'll figure it out eventually.

Then just use it to isolate that circuit. I'm not seeing the problem here. The switched batteries let's you avoid heavi-watt wires in the exercise room. Whether or not you want to extend their use elsewhere is your choice but for the exact purpose you are describing they are by far the best solution. By far.

[KittenIsAGeek]

OK, so, lets say I set up the switched batteries.  I would probably also have to set up a brown-out detector in order to swap battery banks so that the hamster wheels would see the 'low' batteries.  What happens when I need to scale up?  I see this method getting rather complicated quickly. 

The alternative method that you posted is to just eliminate heavi-watt wire completely using the various switched methods that are out there. This defeats the entire purpose of heavi-watt wire and transformers.  I want a system that scales easily that continues to use heavi-watt wire for the main power system.  Since the transformer also acts like a diode, allowing electricity to flow in only one direction, there should be some method that can limit the outgoing power draw to under 2kw.

I'm not discounting the switched batteries.  In fact, I may make use of them at some point.  But those methods don't solve the problem I am trying to work out.  I'm saying "My door is locked and I lost the key, how do I open it" and you're saying, "knock  a hole in the wall."  While that would get me inside, it isn't the solution I'm looking for.

[Saturnus]

Look. They changed how transformers work. The circuit behind it sees the full load of all circuits in front of it. There is no way you can connect it up to do what you want with a transformer without using heavi-watt wire.

What I'm saying is like: "Okay, you lost your key at the bottom of the ocean. And the key you had was a pin tumbler for a lever lock anyway. Let's change the lock and get you a new key that actually works for your door."

You connect one side of the switched battery to the exercise room circuit and the other directly to your heavi-watt wire cicuit. Naturally you'd need to modify it so that it's heavi-watt wires used in the switched battery circuit instead. A little trickier but not too difficult if you remember that heavi-watt plates are just bridges for heavi-watt wires.

[QuQuasar]

Huh. My apologies for the bad advise. I was laboring under a misapprehension regarding how transformers work in ONI.

 

Looks like the only benefit to putting hamster wheels and batteries on secondary circuits is to reduce how much power that circuit pulls from your main grid. Per Saturnus' comments, you can't actually send power into your main grid with low wattage circuits without overloading them or using battery switching systems.

[Moggles]

In the original post the issue was caused by two high power devices running at the same time.

Wouldn't a simpler approach be to automate so that only one of those machines can be active at any time? Unless you absolutely need everything running at the same time of course.

[GrindThisGame]

I just use heavy watt wires in my giant hamster wheel rooms and nobody complains or stresses out too much. As long as you have nice decor elsewhere and are on default settings.

[QuQuasar]

In the original post the issue was caused by two high power devices running at the same time.

Wouldn't a simpler approach be to automate so that only one of those machines can be active at any time? Unless you absolutely need everything running at the same time of course.

Yeah, but that’s not scalable. The moment you add a few more power consuming facilities, the exercise room breaks all over again.

 

The more I look at it, the more I think Saturnus has the right idea. I didn’t realise how simple a suggestion it was at first, but it boils down to “Charge up Battery B with the hamster wheels while Battery A feeds the main grid. After a set period, switch and charge up Battery A while Battery B feeds the main grid”.

 

That replaces your transformer and ensures your heavy-watt wire only needs to extend as far as your batteries, not as far as your duplicants in the gym.

[saltyteabag]

4 hours ago, GrindThisGame said:

I just use heavy watt wires in my giant hamster wheel rooms and nobody complains or stresses out too much. As long as you have nice decor elsewhere and are on default settings.

Yeah, I do the same thing.  If you have enough refined metal to use Heavi-conductive wire, the decor penalty is even less, too.

Here's my latest hamster wheel room: